The Body Weight Factor 2

Training
561

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

See, I think this part of the topic is pretty obvious. You gain more weight, SOME of it is bound to be muscle. I recall a few years back reading a study about these morbidly obese people who did NOT exercise at all, and on average, when they gained weight, about 20-30% of it was muscle.
[/quote]

Maybe and maybe not. A fat, untrained person, who’s one physical exertion is lugging around their own body doesn’t necessarily hold true for a trained person who is already hold substantially more muscle.

Additionally, stuff like this discussing lean body mass (not muscle, unless they were actually measuring muscle) I’ve found problematic to look at. Water retention, organs, est count as LBM. I think it gets hard to say that 20% LBM increase in a fat guy who doesn’t train really translates to any actual muscle at all.[/quote]

You make some good points, I can’t recall if it was said that was 20-30% muscle, or LBM. Even so, hard to know which ones you can trust. I guess my overall point with this is, it comes back to that diminishing returns thing. Past a certain ratio of muscle/fat gained (from a physique perspective), there’s definitely a time when you need to call it quits on gaining weight, and/or find a better approach so you can do it in a leaner manner.

562

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

See, I think this part of the topic is pretty obvious. You gain more weight, SOME of it is bound to be muscle. I recall a few years back reading a study about these morbidly obese people who did NOT exercise at all, and on average, when they gained weight, about 20-30% of it was muscle.
[/quote]

Maybe and maybe not. A fat, untrained person, who’s one physical exertion is lugging around their own body doesn’t necessarily hold true for a trained person who is already hold substantially more muscle.

Additionally, stuff like this discussing lean body mass (not muscle, unless they were actually measuring muscle) I’ve found problematic to look at. Water retention, organs, est count as LBM. I think it gets hard to say that 20% LBM increase in a fat guy who doesn’t train really translates to any actual muscle at all.[/quote]

You make some good points, I can’t recall if it was said that was 20-30% muscle, or LBM. Even so, hard to know which ones you can trust. I guess my overall point with this is, it comes back to that diminishing returns thing. Past a certain ratio of muscle/fat gained (from a physique perspective), there’s definitely a time when you need to call it quits on gaining weight, and/or find a better approach so you can do it in a leaner manner. [/quote]

Well, we can unequivocally agree on that.

563

[quote]Mtag666 wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:
I mean you can just look at George’s youtube channel. He’s got posing vids of him pretty shredded at around 300lbs. To my knowledge after his immense bulk he never got anywhere remotely near 230 lol. I mean fucking look at a picture of the guy next to Brandon Lilly and the Lilliebrodge family; he is motherfucking gargantuan.[/quote]

Yes currently he’s about 300ish. We’re talking about about 1.5-2 years ago when he dieted down to 230 using mdrol. he now trains at supertraining gym and since then has started doing real cycles. [/quote]
Yea I got that eventually. I never realized he got himself so light after his “babyslayer bulk”. Btw his youtube channel is kind of crazy. It like alternates between videos of him deadlifting over 800lbs and videos of him softly stroking some little puppy or bunny rabbit. I have always loved his “100lb Deadlift PR and prohormone program” though lol.

564

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]setto222 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]setto222 wrote:
@Prof X:

Took me a while but i found some cool stuff you may be interested in:

  1. Strength training will increase the blood volume in tendons which would reduce recovery time.
    http://jap.physiology.org/content/106/2/412.abstract

  2. Age WILL increase recovery time by reducing blood flow to tendons.
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jor.1100120214/abstract?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false

So while exercise will increase the integrity and blood flow of a muscle tendon ultimately it WILL take longer to recover from any tendon injury as age increases. [/quote]

Thanks setto. You didn’t have to do that but it is appreciated.[/quote]

Meh, we have our disagreements, shouldn’t get in the way of fact & science.

No problemo. [/quote]

So, you have one study that suggests long-term, dynamic resistance training DOES increase blood flow to tendons… and are comparing those results to another one that bases its conclusions on resting, stretching, isometrically contracting and vascularly occluded tendons during acute observations?

While I appreciate the effort you put into these, please understand that these studies are completely different from one another. The first one supports HT’s assertion (that long-term, conventional weight training positively impacts tendon vascularity) while the second only reinforces what we already know: that the general population can expect decreased blood supply to tendons in a manner correlated positively with age.

You don’t have to be a dentist to tell the difference between an apple and an orange.[/quote]

Didn’t compare them at all just summarized them. I wasn’t bringing anything new to the table just wanted to show that both sides of the argument had merit. My personal belief is that if you follow the results from the 1st study you can offset the results from the second study. I think my position throughout this entire thread has been pretty clear up to the point of the tendon stuff. At that point I don’t even really understand the argument and I don’t even think there is anything to argue.

Just showing that both sides of the argument had merit. Also I was legitimately suprised by the results of the first study! Had no idea that blood flow to a tendon would increase (i’m guessing via angiogenisis) considering they are normally pretty avascular regions to start with.

565

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

He was unquestionably OBESE in every sense of the word. We all agree for the most part in reasonable bulks. Some think 15%bf at the highest others 18%+. Whatever. But to use someone who got OBESE to reach their end goal of big and lean as an example is asinine. Even if Leeman looks awesome now it does not justify getting OBESE. PROVE that getting OBESE helped him get where he is now.
[/quote]

Dude, no one is telling people to get obese…but I want you to do something for a second.

Look at his AGE and look at HIS RESULTS.

He got fat and lost it all and is now way bigger/stronger than most which was his goal.

If you see a downside, let me know.

Would someone over 30 see the same? Probably not without some health issues.[/quote]

Yes I see a downside. He spent a long period of time LOoKING LIKE SHIT and being a “recluse.” (his words). He had a double chin the size of Jay Leno actual chin. He looked like the stay puffed marshmallow man. To equat his double chin stay puffed marshmallow look to his look now is ASININE.[/quote]
Wait, what is a long period of time?

Not to argue here, but time is different at different ages.

It also looked like a life experience that this kid will be forever changed by and not for worse. [/quote]

I don’t know the exact times, the vid posted was titled 6 year transformation so im just guestimating.

I agree it was probably a great life experience to see how people treat you as a fatt ass and as a stud. But i’m sure not going to get obese for the life experience. [/quote]

Lol no as a guy who got fat and lost weight myself would not recommend the OBESE part for sure.

My point was more that if he was OBESE for only a couple of years that is not a long time in my eyes. [/quote]

I agree in the grand scheme of things it’s not a long time, but why be obese for a couple of years when a more calculated approach can lend the same end results without spending time looking like shit?[/quote]
I think the problem is with the calculation part.

Being in medicine for 20 years there are just no guarantees, like has been said this end up being an art not a science. Why? Cause its basically the human body, again why its called practicing medicine.

My thought is like making your DL go up, you could do small increments of 2.5 lb plates to slowly go up over time. OR

you lay your balls on the floor grip it and rip it, sometimes to push the envelope.

Kind of the same mentality in regards to putting on slabs of muscle [/quote]

Best post I have seen on this site for a while an d exactly what I have been saying…but I am “just a dentist”.

566

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]Bryan Krahn wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

No one said that. It was said that people who focus on JUST GAINING for a few years will make more progress than someone constantly dieting to hold onto abs.

[/quote]

I have a hard time seeing how anyone could possibly refute that statement. [/quote]

I will only add that there is a time component to that as well in that they may, again, MAY, obtain that size and/or strength goal faster than doing a slower, lean gain. That’s not to say that someone out there couldn’t stay lean and reach the goal at the same speed.
[/quote]

Well said. The whole point is, it is very difficult to say someone would make the SAME progress worrying about abs as a priority when we don’t seem to be seeing guys make THAT much progress in that amount of time as the guys who do just go ahead and bulk up for a few years to build that solid base of mass.

I wasn’t “300lbs” because I thought being 300lbs specifically was producing so much benefit in and of itself. I was 300lbs because I was still working on size and strength and didn’t see a need to diet down yet.

Seeing how freaking fast the extra weight came off, I am not sure why anyone would be concerned about that.

If someone has a difficult time losing any body fat then obviously they want to avoid pushing as far.

567

X, I think you keep missing my inquiry regarding your future gains. You said you are nowhere near where you want to be. This after 15 years of natural lifting. Considering after the fourth year or so of natural lifting, gains are small or negligible, how much more do you think you have in store for yourself after 15 years of lifting and being in mid-30’s? Most people’s muscular gains are STOPPED after 15 years of lifting and eating adequately. How are you going to do this?

568

[quote]BrickHead wrote:
X, I think you keep missing my inquiry regarding your future gains. You said you are nowhere near where you want to be. This after 15 years of natural lifting. Considering after the fourth year or so of natural lifting, gains are small or negligible, how much more do you think you have in store for yourself after 15 years of lifting and being in mid-30’s? Most people’s muscular gains are STOPPED after 15 years of lifting and eating adequately. How are you going to do this? [/quote]

Why would I be worried about “my limit”? I am already bigger than most people ever get and regardless of if the progress is slower, I am obviously still making progress.

If I am not concerned about my “limit”, why are you?

569

Also

This makes zero sense. So no one makes progress after exactly 15 years?

Why isn’t anyone else calling you on some of this stuff?

570

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:
X, I think you keep missing my inquiry regarding your future gains. You said you are nowhere near where you want to be. This after 15 years of natural lifting. Considering after the fourth year or so of natural lifting, gains are small or negligible, how much more do you think you have in store for yourself after 15 years of lifting and being in mid-30’s? Most people’s muscular gains are STOPPED after 15 years of lifting and eating adequately. How are you going to do this? [/quote]

Why would I be worried about “my limit”? I am already bigger than most people ever get and regardless of if the progress is slower, I am obviously still making progress.

If I am not concerned about my “limit”, why are you?[/quote]

I didn’t ask about your LIMIT! I asked what you see in store for yourself and how you’re gonna get it!

Did I ask, “What’s your limit?” or “What do you see in store for yourself?”!

571

Thing is no-one here disagrees with the fact that BOTH methods work regards old school bulking and the leaner approach found lately. I think the issue is that the advocates of either approach are taking too seriously the fact that if someone chooses a different path it sort of reflects negatively on their own choice as though they made a mistake somehow. Its literally nit picking along the lines of taking two seperate roads to the same destination, one a scenic route and the other maybe a route through a town. If they both get there in the end whats the fuss?

572

[quote]setto222 wrote:

Just showing that both sides of the argument had merit. Also I was legitimately suprised by the results of the first study! Had no idea that blood flow to a tendon would increase (i’m guessing via angiogenisis) considering they are normally pretty avascular regions to start with.
[/quote]

It makes sense because of the trauma. Your body is going to go through the same healing process, just with lesser results in the regions with less vascular tissue.

573

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

I didn’t ask about your LIMIT! I asked what you see in store for yourself and how you’re gonna get it!

Did I ask, “What’s your limit?” or “What do you see in store for yourself?”![/quote]

I see myself getting bigger and then getting leaner. I hope that answers that question for you.

I flatly disagree with your “15 year” time limit and am surprised no one else is calling you on it.

I guess being “nice” means you can make up shit on the fly freely…

574

[quote]Professor X wrote:

This makes zero sense. So no one makes progress after exactly 15 years? [/quote]

Not exactly 15, but by then, YUP, provided they’ve done things right in that time frame.

Thanks for putting words in my mouth when trying to discuss a matter with you. Very polite.

I didn’t use the word “exactly”; I used by then (considering the gains probably halted some time ago for someone lifting for a decade and a half in terms of LBM gain, not strength).

I also didn’t use the words “worry” or “limit” or allude to them.

How is asking what you see in store for yourself the same as asking about a limit… AT ALL?!

You said you’re nowhere near where you want to be. I was curious where you want to be and where you see yourself. What do you see? 20 more pounds LBM? 10? 5? 30? Improvements in certain bodyparts?

575

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

I think the problem is with the calculation part.

Being in medicine for 20 years there are just no guarantees, like has been said this end up being an art not a science. Why? Cause its basically the human body, again why its called practicing medicine.

My thought is like making your DL go up, you could do small increments of 2.5 lb plates to slowly go up over time. OR

you lay your balls on the floor grip it and rip it, sometimes to push the envelope.

Kind of the same mentality in regards to putting on slabs of muscle [/quote]

Just thought I’d point out that the guys I know of with the biggest deadliest (guys like Bolton) almost never go balls to the wall on a pull. lol.

576

[quote]steven alex wrote:
Thing is no-one here disagrees with the fact that BOTH methods work regards old school bulking and the leaner approach found lately. I think the issue is that the advocates of either approach are taking too seriously the fact that if someone chooses a different path it sort of reflects negatively on their own choice as though they made a mistake somehow. Its literally nit picking along the lines of taking two seperate roads to the same destination, one a scenic route and the other maybe a route through a town. If they both get there in the end whats the fuss?

[/quote]

The real debate I saw was that it was considered they would reach the same goal at a similar time…and I do disagree with that. You have a very valuable time during your life to make even more progress. This is something I truly believe based on what I have learned and my own experiences. This is due to many factors that we have discussed here.

577

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

I didn’t ask about your LIMIT! I asked what you see in store for yourself and how you’re gonna get it!

Did I ask, “What’s your limit?” or “What do you see in store for yourself?”![/quote]

I see myself getting bigger and then getting leaner. I hope that answers that question for you.

I flatly disagree with your “15 year” time limit and am surprised no one else is calling you on it.

I guess being “nice” means you can make up shit on the fly freely…[/quote]

It’s not an exact time “limit”–more like after a decade of lifting or less progress in LBM comes in drips and drabs or so small one can’t even recognize them or STOP.

578

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

Not exactly 15, but by then, YUP, provided they’ve done things right in that time frame. [/quote]

Yeah, this is bullshit. Progress may slow, but people don’t literally hit a solid ceiling after a certain number of years. That would mean your body has lost its ability to adapt.

You seem to have a habit of setting limits for people.

I spent most of my life trying to break things like that.

579

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

It’s not an exact time “limit”–more like after a decade of lifting or less progress in LBM comes in drips and drabs or so small one can’t even recognize them or STOP. [/quote]

Yeah, that’s bullshit. Pleas stop telling people that all progress STOPS after a certain number of years. Yes, it slows, it does not full out STOP.

580

X: You said you’re nowhere near where you want to be. I was curious where you want to be and where you see yourself. What do you see? 20 more pounds LBM? 10? 5? 30? Improvements in certain bodyparts?