The Abortion Thread

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
Pat,

You are trying to confuse the issue by adding an absurd element to the equation, if I get my wisdom teeth pulled and I choose the gas, I am still a person.

We give rights to people because they are alive and as such meet a certain set of criteria (sensation, thought etc).

If those criteria are interrupted for an hour or a month or even a minute, they do not lose their standing as human beings. Being sedated for surgery is not the cessation of personhood, it is sedation.

A zygote or blastocyte has never been sentient, has never had the ability to feel pain, they have no brain, no organs, none of the “parts” that would allow them to ever achieve personhood, therefore they are not people.

We are not taking away the life of a human being, since it never achieved the status of a human being.

[/quote]

I am clear on the issue, I am pointing out the fact that sentience is a slippery slope. It’s not a basis for defining a human.
You actually have no idea whether or not a zygote can feel anything or not. You only assume because it’s current development does not have a recognizable nervous system, but that does not mean it does not feel. You simply cannot know that. What it looks like does not define what it is. You cannot know anything is sentient. You have no way of knowing that. Those few cells contain with in them everything they need for development. It’s already human, it just needs to be fed and nurtured. There is nothing that needs to be added to the zygote to make it more human. It’s already fully human.

I am not asking for ‘rights’ for the unborn. I am saying it has a right to live and nobody, including the mother has the right to take it’s life from it.

See, you don’t know what life actually is. You can take all the pieces of a human put it together, but you cannot make it live. You can genetically engineer a plant but you cannot give it life.
A dead person can have all the parts of a living person. You can even hook it up to machines that make the mechanics of the body work, but you cannot make it live.
This is that part, I think, is escaping you.
That little zygote isn’t just a clump of cells, isn’t just human in nature, but it’s alive. You can do what you want with the first two, you have no control over the latter.
You can take life, but you cannot give it. That shit’s not up to you.

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
Pat,

And I agree with the end of your last post

" I could restrict the incidence of abortion to only your prescribed circumstances I would accept the compromise."[/quote]

Well, that’s something…

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Should I STFU if I just don’t like the idea of killing human beings who are unlucky enough to fall on the wrong side of some arbitrarily drawn line that was determined in the same manner we decide to eat tuna rather than dolphin? [/quote]

Not to derail this thread, but dolphins shouldn’t be consumed because of the extremely high mercury levels contained within the animal.

Dolphins live up to 40 years while tuna only 10. The mercury levels are waaaaaay higher in dolphins generally.[/quote]

Now I have to come up with another metaphor, raj, thanks yeah you’re real helpful. Cows rather than horses, okay? Lol.

I check in on this thread every now and then and cannot believe the number of posts from the same people. As such, I ask these questions in earnest:

Do you guys have jobs?

Why do you pick this venue to posit your platform? It is, after all, an almost all-male audience of a very small number of people who are either in your camp already or have no intention of switching sides.

What motivates your position so strongly on an issue that you would never have to personally face?

Do you support abortion is some cases (life of the mother or in circumstances of rape)? Is so, how do you justify that?

Do you voiunteer your time to help disabled children/people, the mentally ill, or underpriviledged children?

Do you support the military (which sanctions killing human beings)? If so, how do you justify that?

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. And if you can’t do so respectfully, please don’t.

[quote]ephrem wrote:
I don’t know if this has been covered before but suppose abortion is outlawed; that won’t stop women from having abortions.

What will the penalty be for a woman who has an illegal abortion?

[/quote]

Uh, yeah, it has been covered. Like on the very first page of this very thread.

[quote]kpsnap wrote:
I check in on this thread every now and then and cannot believe the number of posts from the same people. As such, I ask these questions in earnest:

Do you guys have jobs?

Why do you pick this venue to posit your platform? It is, after all, an almost all-male audience of a very small number of people who are either in your camp already or have no intention of switching sides.

What motivates your position so strongly on an issue that you would never have to personally face?

Do you support abortion is some cases (life of the mother or in circumstances of rape)? Is so, how do you justify that?

Do you voiunteer your time to help disabled children/people, the mentally ill, or underpriviledged children?

Do you support the military (which sanctions killing human beings)? If so, how do you justify that?

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. And if you can’t do so respectfully, please don’t.

[/quote]

Do you have one, just one single argument that has anything at all to do with supporting a position on abortion? Or are you just going to whine and complain there aren’t enough cheerleaders for your side and bravely run away like you did last time?

I asked you a very clear, very specific question last time. You answer that first, then I’ll answer some of your questions.

Who is more rude, the people who were and have been involved in a discussion here already, some of us literally for years now, who were content to continue to argue among ourselves? Or the one who comes in with her drive-by comment that she was unable to defend, and instead of even attempting to do so, paints all of the residents of this neck of the T-Nation woods with the same bigoted brush and stomps away in a huff?

You want some respect? Learn what respect is, first.

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Should I STFU if I just don’t like the idea of killing human beings who are unlucky enough to fall on the wrong side of some arbitrarily drawn line that was determined in the same manner we decide to eat tuna rather than dolphin? [/quote]

Not to derail this thread, but dolphins shouldn’t be consumed because of the extremely high mercury levels contained within the animal.

Dolphins live up to 40 years while tuna only 10. The mercury levels are waaaaaay higher in dolphins generally.[/quote]

Now I have to come up with another metaphor, raj, thanks yeah you’re real helpful. Cows rather than horses, okay? Lol.
[/quote]

Sorry dude, I’m just a natural nit picker, can’t help it. :stuck_out_tongue:

Hi KP,

I would like to be first in answering your post, I will try to set the tone.

Do you guys have jobs?

  • I am retired, these are my golden years

Why do you pick this venue to posit your platform? It is, after all, an almost all-male audience of a very small number of people who are either in your camp already or have no intention of switching sides.

  • In my case I already had a log-in and screen name, I stumbled upon this place (PWI) by accident and like a moth to a bright flame, I cannot stop.

What motivates your position so strongly on an issue that you would never have to personally face?

  • Actually that is a big part of my argument, letting a woman decide what to do with her own body, I am a fan of that.

Do you support abortion is some cases (life of the mother or in circumstances of rape)? Is so, how do you justify that?

  • I do not technically support abortion, but I support a womans’ right to choose (see above), I would hate my wife making medical/life altering decisions for me.

Do you voiunteer your time to help disabled children/people, the mentally ill, or underpriviledged children?

  • I do, but I am retired and all the world is my playground.

Do you support the military (which sanctions killing human beings)? If so, how do you justify that?

  • I do support the military, I was in it, but since I also support choice I guess I don’t have to answer

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. And if you can’t do so respectfully, please don’t.

  • Hopefully all the rest of the answers will be as happy and congenial.

First off, I will change my stance if shown to be mistaken in a logical manner, using universally accepted science. Can you give me the same respect?

BTW I would never set a “trap” for you. I simply would like for us to think about our own stance, independent of popular belief. Could you tell me that you are willing to change your stance on life? Because I will change my position once shown to be wrong. I swear! Please give me the same respect.

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
KD,

In response to:

“Can you ever own another human being”

I will replace “ever” with “now” because as we know people have owned other people. As far as now, I don’t believe any countries allow slavery, but there are countries, religions, and situations that give people (typically women) so few rights that people might confuse them with property. I am sure this is a trap, but I will say no, at this time nobody can “own” another human being (I say that with my definition of human being in place)

Just so you can read it I have an abstract for you, it is the reason I don’t argue for Pro-Choice beyond the first tri-mester:

Self-ownership, abortion and infanticide.

Doctors have been placed in an anomalous position by abortion laws which sanction the termination of a fetus while in a woman’s womb, yet call it murder when a physician attempts to end the life of a fetus which has somehow survived such a procedure. This predicament, the doctors’ dilemma, can be resolved by adopting a strategy which posits the right to ownership of one’s own body for human beings. Such an approach will generate a consistent policy prescription, one that sanctions the right of all pregnant women to abortions, yet grants the fetus, after it becomes viable as a potentially independent person, a right to its own body. The doctors’ dilemma is surmounted, then, by requiring that abortions of viable fetuses be performed in a manner that will produce a live delivery. Hence, infanticide and termination of viable fetuses are proscribed.

Self-ownership, abortion and infanticide - PubMed Thank you for providing a source other than wiki!

[quote]kpsnap wrote:
I check in on this thread every now and then and cannot believe the number of posts from the same people. As such, I ask these questions in earnest:

Do you guys have jobs?

Why do you pick this venue to posit your platform? It is, after all, an almost all-male audience of a very small number of people who are either in your camp already or have no intention of switching sides.

What motivates your position so strongly on an issue that you would never have to personally face?

Do you support abortion is some cases (life of the mother or in circumstances of rape)? Is so, how do you justify that?

Do you voiunteer your time to help disabled children/people, the mentally ill, or underpriviledged children?

Do you support the military (which sanctions killing human beings)? If so, how do you justify that?

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. And if you can’t do so respectfully, please don’t.

[/quote]

I don’t have time to answer all of that, but I would like to make one correction. Not from this thread alone, but from others across the years from some of these very same posters my views on abortion have changed. I used to be pro-choice, and now I’m pro-life. So to say that these discussions are meaningless and don’t have any real impact is incorrect. If you’d like to know what I changed my mind, I believe Kamui and Pat have made the arguments closest to what I believe.

Also, it is an issue that I may have to personally face. If a woman with a child in her womb with my blood decides to abort that is the murder of my child in my eyes. So that would be very close to home there.

Cortes my STFU comment was more so to people that want to restrict ANY circumstance where it may be needed because that soul that just got brought into the world might very well need adoption. Being anti-abortion s fine in principle but that also means your will is to mandate that every baby gets delivered so therefore anyone that feels that way should really have at least a couple of adopted children to validate their position.

Interesting how you never answer these questions yourself.

Relevance? [quote]Do you guys have jobs?[/quote]

I protest in many other ways too. [quote]Why do you pick this venue to posit your platform?[/quote] Males are required to provide half the material needed for life. In addition, I would change sides the moment I am proven to be mistaken in the slightest, with science and NOT an opinion derived argument. Would you ever change your position on life? [quote]It is, after all, an almost all-male audience of a very small number of people who are either in your camp already or have no intention of switching sides.[/quote]

Arrogant statement to think men could never have an influence of a position of life. Yet I know I must save the children with no voice. [quote]What motivates your position so strongly on an issue that you would never have to personally face?[/quote]

I’ll answer with another question. Never has this been addressed, even once. How does perpetuating a violent act redeem the action of the original act? [quote]Do you support abortion is some cases (life of the mother or in circumstances of rape)? Is so, how do you justify that?[/quote]

Yes I do. Numerous opportunities to volunteer in Phoenix AZ. [quote]Do you voiunteer your time to help disabled children/people, the mentally ill, or underpriviledged children?[/quote]

I have never thought our military has been justifiably used, at least in my lifetime. There is a procedure to the action of declaring war. WWII was the last declared war. [quote]Do you support the military (which sanctions killing human beings)? If so, how do you justify that?[/quote]

You are welcome. Can you answer the same questions in the same manner? [quote]Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. And if you can’t do so respectfully, please don’t.[/quote]

Now please answer one question for me. [b]What event christens the right to life?[/b] I would like you to clearly define your position, like what tests can be administered to leave no questions asked. If needed, I can ask the question another way if you would like.

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

My own opinion on the matter: A woman who is willing to kill her child is either in need of mental help and/or some kind of sustenance, either way her culpability is usually lacking criminally.

[/quote]

I certainly could agree with this viewpoint, to a degree. I do think this only applies to a certain set of scared, desperate women, though. There are some very bad ones out there, too, who willingly, knowingly use abortion as birth control, and do it again and again. This is purely criminal, in my opinion. Purely evil.

But, again, I cannot presently think of any reliable way to prosecute someone like this without creating a host of other problems.

I do think that, for the other women, who really do not want to do it but feel there is no other choice, just to have the idea accepted and justified by law that you are committing actual murder when you undergo an abortion would be enough to further severely curtail abortions that might otherwise have occurred.

Or, rather, that are occurring, right now. [/quote]

i agree with this to an extent… i believe the women should have to provide a good reason why this course of action is being take to their peers. Just being irresponsible and not wanting that life you created isn’t enough… rape/incest on the other hand i think should be allowable.
My uncle told my cousin when he was17, after he just informed him he was going to be a grandpa, “its the fucking you get for the fucking you got”
same as a crime (figuratively speaking) dont do the crime if you cant do the time

every decision has consequences and repercussions that 99% of the time you know in advance. live with your choices

[quote]
Do you guys have jobs?[/quote]

Yes.

[quote]
Why do you pick this venue to posit your platform? It is, after all, an almost all-male audience of a very small number of people who are either in your camp already or have no intention of switching sides.[/quote]

Strictly speaking, I don’t have a “side” nor a “platform”.
I only participate in these discussions because i can offer a slightly different perspective.
As a pagan leftist who happen to be pro-life, i’m the “exception to the rule” here. My very existence prevent both sides to use stupid strawmen.

[quote]
What motivates your position so strongly on an issue that you would never have to personally face?[/quote]

Last time i checked, women didn’t reproduce by themselve. We don’t live in a feminist parthenogenetic utopia. Yet.

[quote]
Do you support abortion is some cases (life of the mother or in circumstances of rape)? Is so, how do you justify that?[/quote]

A necessary evil is not a “good thing”. It may be neede in some circumstances, but it’s still evil.

I live in a socialist country. Here, everyone “volunteer” his time to help disabled children, the mentally ill and underpriviledgd children. Willingly or not. I happen to do it willingly.

Btw, the vast majority of my students are underprivildged children.

[quote]
Do you support the military (which sanctions killing human beings)? If so, how do you justify that?[/quote]

Necessary evil. See above.

Thanks to those of you who answered.

Kneedragger: I don’t mind answering my own questions. But they’re not really relevant for the most part as I’m not standing on any platform here. And by the way, I find you unfailingly consistent. I do respect that.

Fletch: How wonderful that your mind is open enough to still be changeable. That’s a laudable trait!

I ask if you have jobs because I cannot imagine having as much spare time on my hands to blog on these forums as some of you seem to have. I ask if you volunteer your time because it seems a much more productive use of it.

I will say that I am pro-choice. I don’t disagree that life starts at conception. But it’s a parasitic form of life at that stage that I don’t consider to be a “human being” with the same rights as you or me. Until the life form is viable independent of the mother, I don’t believe it deserves the same rights. Therein lies the difference between most pro-choice and anti-abortion people. The medical establishment recognizes the differences in stages of development and, thus, differentiates these stages with different names.

My pro-choice position is largely informed by practicality. If abortion were outlawed, it would only hurt those who should least bring a child into the world: the indigent. The wealthy would easily get their hands on the pills/procedures they need and the desperate would attempt . . . desperate measures.

The reason I believe that a woman’s opinion should supersede that of a man’s is that men can walk away from the situation at any time: both during pregnancy and after the child is born. A woman cannot. And if a woman doesn’t have the means (money) to track the father down (sometimes multiple times), she is saddled with the financial and emotional burden of raising a child alone.

A few more comments: I have never met a woman who regretted having an abortion. I have never met a Jewish woman who isn’t pro-choice. I know a number of women who have had abortions and also profess to be Catholic. I have never had an abortion myself. I have two children. I am not anti-military but have way more angst over loss of life at the expense of military efforts (who’s the enemy now?) than I will ever have over the abortion issue.

Do you mind if I ask a follow up question? I will be very specific into what portion of your post I am referring to.

Please inform me what species the unborn are/is?


Being given the choice of life or death changes you: my unplanned pregnancy
by Secular Pro-Life Wed Jun 13, 2012

It is hard to imagine a journey as beautiful as the one Iâ??m going to tell you beginning in a stall in the ladies room at Target, but that is where I found out I was pregnant with my 4th child. There I sat, staring at two unmistakable blue lines. How could this be happening? I was â??careful.â?? I had already broken up with the babyâ??s father, and since he was married (a little detail he had neglected to tell me), he would not be pleased to find this out. What on Earth was I going to do? I quickly threw the positive test in the small trash can next to the toilet where I was still sittingâ?¦stunned. I gathered up my bags and walked out into the store in a fog.

Later that day, I called my mom. She would understand, right? She was surprised, but not angry like Iâ??d feared. She was actually very level-headed and supportive. She asked me what I was going to do. I told her I didnâ??t see how I could raise a 4th child on my salary as a youth care worker in a juvenile corrections facility. She asked me if I was going to have the baby. It was a question I hadnâ??t even considered. Of course I was going to have the baby, but then what? Go after her father for child support? Try to take care of another child on my own? My head was still spinning.

The next day, I made the phone call I had been dreading. I had to tell her father that I was pregnant with her. He was livid. Screaming at me about how I was â??trappingâ?? him. He demanded that I have an abortion. I hadnâ??t expected any more. I hung up the phone and made an appointment at a womenâ??s clinic. (You know the oneâ?¦ planned something or other) to discuss my options.

Four days later, I went in for my appointment. I was expecting a physical exam and some pamphlets discussing my options. I was wrong. The woman at the desk told me that unless I wanted to terminate, there was little they would do for me. With my insurance, I could be â??rid of my problemâ?? for $8 by noon the next day. I told her I was not there for an abortion, just prenatal care. She told me prenatal care was not offered at the clinic; I would need to go to a regular clinic.

On my way out, I met a sidewalk counselor. She directed me to the Birthright center the next town over. She didnâ??t talk about God or the Bible, just my baby: how she had a heartbeat and a brain. She showed me a picture of what my baby looked like. I knew right then: abortion was completely off the table.

The next day, I went to Birthright. I was given something no one else up to that point had given me: options. She put me in touch with agencies that could help with expenses, food, counseling, and resources, should I choose to parent my baby. It was at that point I asked her about the possibility of placing my baby for adoption.

She showed me several agency profiles and gave me a list of websites to check out at home. It was later that day that I found a profile for two of the most loving, wonderful people I had ever met. I found my babyâ??s mom and dad.

Because I was so early in my pregnancy, I really had time to get to know them. As the months went on, we talked more and more. They got to know my entire family, my kids, my parents. I became very comfortable with the fact that they would be leaving the hospital with the baby I was carrying.

The birth father was glad to know that his secret was safe. He promptly signed all the papers and had nothing else to do with us.

Finally, the time had come for the adoptive parents to fly to Minnesota. (They were from New York.) I remember the first time I laid eyes on them: the people my baby would forever know as â??mom and dadâ??. She gave me a huge hug and we both started to cry. I was days away from helping her become a mom. It is was a very surreal feeling. We went out for dinner, discussed our birth plan, went shopping for some last-minute hospital items, and agreed to meet for dinner the next night.

I went to bed that night feeling wonderful. What had started as something terrifying had turned into something very beautiful. In a few days, I would give birth and go on with my life, while the two of them would become parents, because of me. I knew I was making the right decision.

Over the next week, we met almost daily. I really bonded with her adoptive mom. We went shopping, got our hair done, and ateâ?¦a lot. We decided that I would not hold the baby at the hospital, but would hold her for pictures before they flew home to New York. We also made arrangements for them to be in the room when the baby was born and made sure the hospital staff knew that she was the first one to hold the baby.

We also made decisions that would be put into the adoption contract as to the contact I would have with them and the baby as she grew up. We decided on yearly pictures, letters, and phone calls. I wanted to know how she was doing, without being too invasive in her life. It was an arrangement with which we were all comfortable.

The next week, the night we had been waiting for had come. I was in labor. I called them and off to the hospital we went. I was in labor for 13 difficult hours before it was decided that I was going to need a c-section. I was quickly wheeled to the operating room with my babyâ??s mother by my side. She was not allowed in the room as I was going to be put completely to sleep. I remember the last thing I said to the nurse was, â??You make sure she holds her baby first.â??

I woke up in some pretty insane pain, but was relieved to hear that all had gone well. The baby, named Kylie, was doing well and in the arms of her new parents. About an hour later her mom came in to see me with tears in her eyes. She thanked me over and over. We hugged and both cried.

Over the next few days, I became very sad that my time with Kylie was over, but I was very proud of myself for giving her life. Leaving the hospital without her was the hardest thing that I have ever done. It is a feeling of loss that no one but another birth mom can identify with. But over the next few weeks, that feeling of loss gradually lessened and the feeling of pride over what I had done grew.

I met with them before they went home. I held her and took a picture with her and her mom and dad. It is a photo I will always cherish. We said our good-byes and off they went to start a new life with the baby I had placed in their arms. It was a life-changing moment. I had a new respect for life. When you are given the choice to choose life or death for another human being, it changes you. At least it changed me.

Reprinted from Secular Pro-lifeâ??s blog.

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Do you mind if I ask a follow up question? I will be very specific into what portion of your post I am referring to.

Please inform me what species the unborn are/is?

[/quote]

(^_^)

Good question, kd.

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Do you mind if I ask a follow up question? I will be very specific into what portion of your post I am referring to.

Please inform me what species the unborn are/is?

[/quote]

Species is Raphus cucullatus if I remember correctly. Why not ask her a more relevant question since science classifications do not grant rights.

They obviously do.
In our legal systems, being human is required to have rights.
And telling what/who is “human” or “not human” is nothing more and nothing less than “science classifications”.
That, or it’s baseless opinion.

Now, i do think non-human beings do have (at least some) rights.
But on this topic both pro-lifers and pro-choicers will probably disagree.