The Abortion Thread

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
One last question before bed:

A woman decides she does not want the child she is pregnant with, but, at 20 weeks, it is possible the child already possesses the pesky quality of pain sensitivity. Could we then still ethically justify killing her by anesthetizing her before cutting her up and collapsing her skull and sucking the brains and leftover pieces of her body out of her mother’s womb?

What’s the difference, right? No big deal.

Same question for the child at 30 weeks.

Same question for the child at 40 weeks.[/quote]

Most people would say it is not ethical, this is why the first trimester is a more accepted answer which is a big difference from 20+ weeks.[/quote]

And, specifically, what is this difference that is so big?
[/quote]

I asked this earlier but maybe you missed it but it might help better answer your question which you keep asking in various forms. What is your scientific definition of a human? Is it a specific DNA sequence, something less/more?[/quote]

My answer is:

  • It must be alive.
  • It must be autonomous.
  • It must be human in nature (I.E. DNA)

If you have those 3 things you have a human life. You cannot have a human life if any of those components are missing. There is nothing you can do to make it not a human life when it meets those requirements and you cannot say that something that meets those 3 requirements are not a human life.[/quote]

Okay lets start with the first human that ever lived. What would you call their parents? which are obviously not human since their offspring was the first and not them.[/quote]

What the hell does ‘the first human who ever lived’ have to do with whether or not a fetal human is a human?[/quote]

Because you seem to think they have some special property I am not aware of.[/quote]

There is nothing special about being human, per se. The argument is that the in utero child is a human and it’s life should be respected despite a how another person, including the mother feels about it.

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

To confirm your belief, yes; I don’t think a fetus is any less human than a birthed child, nor is it relevantly different from a fully grown adult in my opinion.

[/quote]

Shazaam!

[quote]ephrem wrote:
U.S. Teen Pregnancy Rates Dramatically Decline, Hit Lowest Level in 30 Years

http://medicaldaily.com/news/20120620/10381/american-teen-pregnancy-rates-decreased.htm

Good news.[/quote]

Thanks to comprehensive sex education.

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
KD,

"Chile. Prove to me there are more abortions now, compared to previous of '89 Then your last statement is random things you made up, you never even provided a source. Finally, all the reasons in the world would never justify the slaughter of fifty two million children.

This EXACT SAME justification was used by the German’s in killing the of about three million Jews."

-I have no idea what you are saying. You are not answering or providing proof, you are just rambling.

and

"You THINK many things, but never have evidence. shrug

I mentioned a soul because you refuse to understand science.

Finally; If a human blastocyte is not a “future child,” what are they?"

I posted the link several pages back with the British Study about fetuses and pain. Additionally a zygote and a blastocyte are exactly what they are called, a zygote and a blastocyte, not a fetus or a person. A soul has no place in this discussion unless you said “Fuck it” and fell back on religion as your motivating force (which it pretty clearly is) because as you may have noticed, science and the law do not support your position at all. And by the way, when I post an opinion I say “i think…” because it is my own personal bias not a scientific guideline.
[/quote]

Here’s the problem with your argument, there is no such thing as a ‘future child’ or ‘potential human’. These things simply do not exist… You might as well believe in Unicorns dude. There is either a human life or there is not. There is not a third option. You will not find, you will never find a single shred of documentation that mentions a ‘potential human’ because no such thing exists.
Therefore, if your whole argument depends on a complete and utter made up fiction, you have no argument, period. I can’t be more clear than that. You can’t make shit up around here and presenting completely made up shit as fact is not only laughable, but just plain wrong.

Making up shit shit isn’t fact.

Brian Hanson: I suggest you learn how to use the quote function.

Makes reading posts much easier.

[quote]therajraj wrote:
it’s just rhetoric no different than people who push the “right to choose” crap.

Every “being” human or non-human is unique.

[/quote]

It’s just rhetoric? Well one is right and one is wrong. Not really rhetoric.

[quote]sufiandy wrote:
Well now its settled, both sides for this argument are equally valid.[/quote]

I see the intellectual wherewithal is strong in this one.

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:

  1. there is no choice here. Our actions will always lead, directly or indirectly, to the death of some animal and/or vegetal beings.
    It’s a necessary evil. But it’s still an evil.
    [/quote]

Hunting for sport, a necessary evil?[/quote]

Sustenance =/= hunting for sport.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
it’s just rhetoric no different than people who push the “right to choose” crap.

Every “being” human or non-human is unique.

[/quote]

It’s just rhetoric? Well one is right and one is wrong. Not really rhetoric.[/quote]

Demonstrate that a “right to life” is an objective fact.

The relationship between a mother and their young of any other species of animal is never described as being parasitic. Rather than me building a case against your straw man, find one reputable source provide the link please that describes the unborn human fetus as [i]PARASITIC[/i].

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
I don’t see that at all. Almost ALL adjectives have a noun counterpart. Please describe to me how the words used destroy my argument.

[/quote]

You don’t see it, because like I said before, you refuse to entertain anything anyone writes that might prove you to be incorrect. (This would explain why you ran away from the drinking age conversation you started.) I cannot believe you refuse to acknowledge that you are fully aware what a fucking adjective is, and how it is different than a noun, because it would ruin your bunk rebuttal.

I cannot fathom a grown, educated man would link a definition he didn’t comprehend.

But you know what, I’m going to show you why, that was a post rife with inconsistencies.

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Redefining words to win an argument will NEVER allow you to win the debate.[/quote]

That isn’t what she did. Not at all. Not for one instant did she do that.

Did she imply that a fetus is analogous to a parasite by using the adjective “parasitic”? I’m about to get to that

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
par�??�?â?¢a�??�?â?¢site - [par-uh-sahyt]
noun[/quote]

I’m a super-fan of your google-fu, but too bad you are quoting and linking a word she didn’t use. Notice you quoted and linked to a noun, parasite. She used an adjective, parasitic. Adjectives describe nouns. Which means she used a word that means “what I’m talking about acts like a parasite.” She used the adjective parasitic to imply a fetus acts like a parasite. She did not, in fact call it a parasite.

Note my use of the word “like” in the second to last sentence. I am going to refute the argument brewing in your brain as you read this: one noun, one thing, doesn’t have to be a parasite to be described as acting like a parasite. That is the point of an adjective, to describe nouns.

She was describing a noun, using an adjective. You defined a noun, one she didn’t even use.

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:

  1. an organism that lives on or in [i][u]an organism of another species[/i][/u], known as the host, from the body of which it obtains nutriment.[/quote]

The distinction between noun and adjective here is important because note what you emphasized as proof of her fallacy. The portion of the definition you posted that speaks to a parasite being a separate species. This is were you claiming she is “redefining” a word is totally and completely false, therefore destroying your rebuttal.

She didn’t say the fetus was a parasite, she said it was parasitic. (I cannot believe I have to explain this…) She said it acts like a parasite, which would make what species it was moot, because you don’t have to be the noun to be described as having the characteristics of said noun.

So therefore she didn’t “redefine” anything. You just made a bad rebuttal. You shot for the empty net, and the puck hit the goal post.

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Calling a newborn, who is the exact same species as the mother is a blatant attempt appealing to others emotions.[/quote]

Okay, first off, you are in no position to be calling others out on appeals to emotion. That would make you the largest hypocrite I have run across in a long time. The first photo you posted in the first post to the first thread that spawned this very thread was an appeal to emotion. (It also, most likely, exploited an innocent child to further an agenda that the child likely didn’t comprehend. But I’m speculating here.)

This is an emotional topic, and appeals to emotion are expected, and at times, almost necessary. If appeals to emotion where removed from this thread, your post count, among others, would drop dramatically. I would imagine it would still be in the first thread.

Secondly, she didn’t call the newborn anything. Nice try though. She was clearly speaking of an unborn child.

Third, she didn’t “call” the unborn child anything. She described it as being like something. Dang, that pesky little difference between a noun and adjective comes into play again.

Fourth, you or anyone else could get every doctor, priest and president that has ever lived to line up and show me study after study and chart after chart, lay the facts right down in front of me that shows how a fetus and a trichinella behave in a manor that is indistinguishable from each other for X amount of weeks, and I will reject the very notion it is possible. I’d sooner clean my ears with a shotgun that admit it was true, even if it were true.

That is why I’m taking exception to your post to her. I agree with the point you are trying to make. But you do such a bad job of making it, it makes me not want to agree, and I have to.

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
If you would like to have a discussion, then please come forward with an open mind.[/quote]

This has to be a joke coming from you.

Your mind, at least about this topic, is so far from open it couldn’t be any further away. You cannot honestly believe you are open minded about this.

This statement is also completely irrelevant to her post, or your response until this point.

Now, I’m not saying your mind not being open about the subject is right or wrong. I have respect for your enthusiasm and determination. And I would imagine not having an open mind is why you are the way you are about it. So don’t take me pointing out how ludicrous it is for you to ask someone to “come forward with an open mind” about this topic as a slight. It isn’t. It is ludicrous, but not a slight.

The whole “I respond above your quotes to appear superior” is annoying as hell too.

[/quote] edited slightly

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
…when someone wants to call a fetus parasitic as a justification, I just cannot keep my opinions out of it.

Dirty debate tactic or not, there is nothing, not one single thing in this world that could convince me that a fetus is analogous with a parasite. I would also question the moral fiber of someone that could look at it that way.[/quote]

Hear hear!

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
The relationship between a mother and their young of any other species of animal is never described as being parasitic. Rather than me building a case against your straw man, find one reputable source provide the link please that describes the unborn human fetus is [i]PARASITIC[/i].
[/quote]

That’s not really what he’s saying kd. I wouldn’t even worry about it. Believe it or not, the two of you are in far more agreement than disagreement about this topic.

I am not worried about it Cortes. He is playing devil’s advocate and I get that, I really do. However his claims that the unborn is parasitic is simply wrong and a misuse of the English language. I am simply trying to point that out to him shrug

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
it’s just rhetoric no different than people who push the “right to choose” crap.

Every “being” human or non-human is unique.

[/quote]

It’s just rhetoric? Well one is right and one is wrong. Not really rhetoric.[/quote]

Demonstrate that a “right to life” is an objective fact.[/quote]

Demonstrate it’s not…

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
it’s just rhetoric no different than people who push the “right to choose” crap.

Every “being” human or non-human is unique.

[/quote]

It’s just rhetoric? Well one is right and one is wrong. Not really rhetoric.[/quote]

Demonstrate that a “right to life” is an objective fact.[/quote]

Demonstrate it’s not…[/quote]

I don’t have to.

The claim that fetuses have a “right to life” has not met its burden of proof. The person claiming that fetuses do must demonstrate so.

Breaking: Planned Parenthood throws in $1 million towel on Michigan mega-abortion clinic

Planned Parenthood of Mid and South Michigan has given up on its underhanded attempt to open a 17,050 square foot mega-abortion clinic in Auburn Hills, Michigan, a huge pro-life victory.

Moreover, Planned Parenthood is now out at least $1 million and stuck with a boondoggle.

Backstory

In November 2010 Planned Parenthood paid $733,151 cash for the unfinished shell and then tried to wiggle around a deed restriction by misrepresenting its planned use for the structure to adjacent hotel owners, who held the power over the restriction.

Planned Parenthood then preemptively sued the hotel owners after the couple became aware of PPâ??s duplicity and announced they planned to put up a fight.

As the legal wrangling ensued, the State of Michigan cancelled a $200,000 grant it had earmarked to Planned Parenthood to help finish the structure, after the money wasnâ??t spent by the end of 2011.

Meanwhile, Citizens for a Pro-Life Society, led by Dr. Monica Miller, organized several protests at the site.

In January 2012 Planned Parenthood won Round 1 in court, but the hotel owners, aided by pro-life attorney Jim Carey, appealed.

But on May 18, 2012, Planned Parenthood unexpectedly dropped its lawsuit and agreed to an airtight deed restriction that bans â??clinics providing abortion proceduresâ?? from using the building.

The new deed restriction was just made public yesterday, the same day Planned Parenthood offered the property up for lease.

Citizens for a Pro-Life Society speculates the reason Planned Parenthood gave up the fight:

Perhaps to avoid a lengthy appeals court process, PPMSM agreed to a newly-drawn covenant deed restrictionâ?¦. Entering into such an agreement now frees the pro-abortion group to sell or at least lease out the disputed property â?? which appears to be exactly what has happened.

Planned Parenthood is now out the $733,151 it paid for the building, the $200,00 grant it lost, and at least $100,000 in legal fees, as speculated by pro-life real estate agent Dave Theisen of Real Estate for Life. It was Theisen who originally discovered the deed restriction.

Congratulations to Michigan pro-lifers for their hard work, which paid off in a major victory against Planned Parenthood and the saving of many lives.

[Photo via Nicholas Langlois of Nick-in-Time Photography]

Jun.21, 2012 9:45 am

Basically I don’t think that a right to life exists and I’m asking him to prove it. By asking me to demonstrate that it doesn’t exist is nothing more than a shifting of the burden of proof.

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
The relationship between a mother and their young of any other species of animal is never described as being parasitic. Rather than me building a case against your straw man, find one reputable source provide the link please that describes the unborn human fetus as [i]PARASITIC[/i].

[/quote]

Did you even read my post?

Honest question, and please answer it.

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
I am not worried about it Cortes. He is playing devil’s advocate and I get that, I really do. However his claims that the unborn is parasitic is simply wrong and a misuse of the English language. I am simply trying to point that out to him shrug

[/quote]

Seriously?

Please point out provide the quote of my words please where I made such a claim.

Wow kd… I just don’t even know what to say.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
it’s just rhetoric no different than people who push the “right to choose” crap.

Every “being” human or non-human is unique.

[/quote]

It’s just rhetoric? Well one is right and one is wrong. Not really rhetoric.[/quote]

Demonstrate that a “right to life” is an objective fact.[/quote]

Demonstrate it’s not…[/quote]

I don’t have to.

The claim that fetuses have a “right to life” has not met its burden of proof. The person claiming that fetuses do must demonstrate so.

[/quote]

Do humans have a right to live?

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
it’s just rhetoric no different than people who push the “right to choose” crap.

Every “being” human or non-human is unique.

[/quote]

It’s just rhetoric? Well one is right and one is wrong. Not really rhetoric.[/quote]

Demonstrate that a “right to life” is an objective fact.[/quote]

Demonstrate it’s not…[/quote]

I’m afraid that’s not how it works. Lack of counter evidence is not evidense for your position. In this case, lack of a counter argument is not an argument for your position, especially if you’ve given no argument to counter.

Even if he can’t initially demonstrate that a right to life is not objective, it would only, at best, prove that “a right to life”'s objectivity is a possibility, not that it is so. That’s your job.