The Abortion Thread

Is Abortion Ever Justified?
A moral examination of the “life of the mother” exception.

Page Summary:
If continued pregnancy threatens the life of the mother, and there is no way to save the child, an ethical case can be made for the justifiability of abortion. A look at the data, however, indicates that this ethical dilemma may be altogether unnecessary.

Of all the circumstantial variables you can attach to the abortion question, none is more ethically challenging than when the life of the mother is threatened by continued pregnancy. Before sorting through the ethics of the matter, we would do well to first lay out some context:

It is only in extremely rare cases that abortion can even be mentioned as a potential means of saving the mother's life. Former Surgeon General C. Everett Koop, stated in a 1996 New York Times editorial that because of the advances in modern medicine, "partial-birth abortions are not needed to save the life of the mother" (1). Sixteen years earlier, he wrote: "In my thirty-six years in pediatric surgery I have never known of one instance where the child had to be be aborted to save the mother's life." Even Planned Parenthood's Dr. Alan Guttmacher acknowledged, â??Today it is possible for almost any patient to be brought through pregnancy alive, unless she suffers from a fatal illness such as cancer or leukemia, and, if so, abortion would be unlikely to prolong, much less save, life.â?? (2)
As it relates to abortion, the "life" of the mother is much different than the "health" of the mother. This is true because the Supreme Court's 1973 abortion ruling defined "health" so broadly that it almost becomes a throw-away term. Technically, abortion is illegal during the last trimester of pregnancy, unless it threatens the "health" of the mother. Since the Supreme Court defined health to include "physical, emotional, psychological, (or) familial" trauma, they effectively made abortion legal through all nine months of pregnancy, for virtually any reason at all. Therefore, making an exception for the life of the mother is by no means comparable to making an exception for the health of the mother.

As an overarching principle, when the life of the mother is threatened by continued pregnancy, everything possible should be done to save both the mother and the child. During the second half of pregnancy, the pregnancy can be ended prematurely by inducing labor and using aggressive neonatal care to sustain the life of the child outside the womb.

When pregnancy endangers the life of the mother during the first trimester, the most ethical course of action is much harder to pinpoint. Here’s the tension. The fundamental reason that abortion is condemnable is because it kills an innocent human being. What do you do, then, when the existence of one human being, through no fault of their own, threatens the life of another human being? Do you end the life of the child, to save the life of the mother? This is the dilemma we face. Philosophically, we might justify the decision to abort a life-threatening pregnancy this way:

A) If the pregnancy continues, the mother will die. If the mother dies, the child will die.

B) If the pregnancy is ended through abortion, the child will die, but the mother will live.

In both instances the child will die. Since there is no way to save the child, but there is a way to save the mother, it is morally expedient (even necessary, perhaps) to save the mother by ending the life of the child â?? on the premise that is better to save one life, than to lose two. This conclusion has nothing to do with valuing one life over the other. It merely recognizes that since there is no way to save the baby, the most ethical course of action is to save the mother.

Though such thinking may be ethically sound as it applies to the hypothetical conditions above, real-world circumstances are never so cut and dry. Quite simply, statement A is flawed. We can say with certainty that if the mother dies, the child will die, but we can never say with certainty that if the pregnancy continues, the mother will die. In order to be accurate, the beginning of Statement A would need to be re-rendered as such:

A) If the pregnancy continues, the mother might die...

There is a huge difference between “will” and “might”, and this is where it gets sticky. Does the morality of aborting a life-threatening pregnancy depend on the severity of the threat to the mother? Is it a matter of percentages and probability? In the United States, the overall, pregnancy-related mortality rate is .0118%, this according to the most recent report from the Centers for Disease Control. In other words, for every pregnancy-related death, there are 8,475 successful live births. Pregnancy, by its very nature, carries the risk of death. It is generally an infinitesimally small risk, but a risk nonetheless. Is a .0118% risk to the life of the mother severe enough to morally justify abortion? What if the risk to her life were 1%, or 10%, or 50%? What if there was a 90% chance the mother would die? Is that enough of a threat to justify abortion?

At this point, we would do well to get as specific as we can. What are the real-world, pregnancy-related conditions that pose a significant threat to a woman’s life during the first trimester? Really, there is only one: ectopic pregnancy, a condition that occurs when the embryo implants in the fallopian tubes (or in the ovary, abdomen, or cervix) instead of in the uterus. It has been generally reported and generally believed that an ectopic pregnancy is always fatal to the child and, if left untreated, often fatal to the mother. For instance, WebMD says this of an ectopic pregnancy:

There is no way to save an ectopic pregnancy. It cannot turn into a normal pregnancy. If the egg keeps growing in the fallopian tube, it can damage or burst the tube and cause heavy bleeding that could be deadly. If you have an ectopic pregnancy, you will need quick treatment to end it before it causes dangerous problems.

The first problem with the statement on the WebMD site is that there have been a number of documented cases where undiagnosed ectopic pregnancies have yielded successful live births. In 1999, a healthy baby boy was delivered in London after having implanted in his mother’s fallopian tube. When the tube ruptured, the embryo attached itself to the mother’s uterus and spent the rest of the pregnancy in the mother’s abdominal cavity. In 2000, a healthy baby girl was delivered in Nottingham (UK) despite the fact that she spent the duration of her ectopic pregnancy attached to the lining of her mother’s bowels. In 2005, a woman in Hertfordshire (UK) gave birth to a healthy baby girl, despite the fact that she spent the entire pregnancy in her mother’s abdomen. In 2008, an ovary-based, ectopic pregnancy delivered a healthy baby girl in northern Australia.

Percentages are hard to come by, but the BBC News piece on one of the successful deliveries listed above, reports that the baby had a 5% chance of survival, while there was a 10% chance that the mother would die. A 2003 Canadian Broadcasting story on the successful delivery of an ectopic pregnancy in Canada quotes Dr. Robert Sabbah as saying that the baby only had about a 1% chance of survival. Without question, the odds of survival for ectopic babies is extremely slim, but clearly it is erroneous to claim that “there is no way to save an ectopic pregnancy”. If more ectopic pregnancies weren’t ended prematurely, who’s to say there wouldn’t be far more examples of successful births?

Of course, we still must give adequate consideration to the mother. How severe a threat does an ectopic pregnancy realistically pose, and is it reasonable to suggest she put her life on the line, when there is such a painfully small chance that her baby will survive? A report on ectopic pregnancy published by the American Academy of Family Physicians tells us a number of things:

1) Ectopic pregnancy occurs at a rate of 19.7 cases per 1,000 pregnancies in North America.

2) In the United States, the case-fatality rate has declined from 35.5 maternal deaths per 10,000 ectopic pregnancies in 1970 to only 3.8 maternal deaths per 10,000 ectopic pregnancies in 1989.

3) To date, at least 14 studies have documented that 68 to 77 percent of ectopic pregnancies resolve without intervention.

The first thing to note is that a significant majority of ectopic pregnancies are never treated. In most of these cases, the embryo is naturally miscarried and the pregnancy ends without further incident. If we split the difference for the estimate that between 68% and 77% of ectopic pregnancies go untreated, we get 72.5%. Assuming that all of the deaths related to ectopic pregnancy (in 1989) occurred to women who received no medical intervention, we can say that there are 3.8 deaths for every 7,250 (10,000 x 72.5%) untreated ectopic pregnancies, putting the likelihood of maternal death at just .05%.

Another way to look at the data would be to compare tubal ruptures with total deaths. Emedicine, a website maintained by WebMD reports that in 1992, there were 108,800 cases of ectopic pregnancy in the United States, with a maternal death rate of 2.6 deaths per 10,000 ectopic pregnancies. This is consistent with what the Centers for Disease Control reportis in Pregnancy-Related Mortality Surveillance. Between 1991-1999, 237 women died as a result of complications associated with ectopic pregnancy â?? an average of 26 deaths per year. Returning to the emedicine report, we find that in 20% of all ectopic pregnancies, tubal rupture is the initial symptom. In other words, these women were not aware that their pregnancy was ectopic until their fallopian tube ruptured. Since tubal rupture, and subsequent hemorrhaging, is the primary threat that an ectopic pregnancy poses to the life of the mother, let’s conservatively assume that all maternal deaths relating to ectopic pregnancy happened as a result of an untreated, ruptured tube. If that is the case, then we could divide the total number of deaths (26) by the total number of untreated tubal ruptures (108,800 x 20% = 21,760) to arrive at an overall maternal death rate of .119%. In other words, if ectopic pregnancy is left untreated, the likelihood that the mother will die lies somewhere between .05%-.119%.

In light of this data, it is safe to say that ectopic pregnancy, even an untreated ectopic pregnancy, is not as life-threatening as most people are led to believe. At the same time, the risk that an ectopic pregnancy poses to the mother’s life is real and sometimes fatal, while the baby’s chance of survival is extremely slim. There are no easy answers and no “one-size-fits-all” solution. If you’re facing an ectopic pregnancy, make sure you have a pro-life doctor to walk this road with youâ??one that prescribes abortion as a means of last resort, not as a means of first resort. Ask lots of questions. Find out what kind of alternative treatments are available. If something doesn’t sit right with you, get a second opinion. This is not a decision to be made lightly, so make sure you have enough information to make the best decision possible.

(1) A19 of the national edition–of the New York Times on 9/26/96.)
(2) Alan F. Guttmacher, “Abortionâ??Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow,” in The Case for Legalized Abortion Now (Berkeley, Calif.: Diablo Press, 1967).

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
A Canadian pro-LIFE site.

http://www.unmaskingchoice.ca/[/quote]

70% of Canadians are pro-choice.

Even our Evangelical prime minister has stated to never touch the abortion issue. It would be political suicide anyhow.

Just saying there’s almost no chance laws change here.

â??Illuminating hopeâ??: how one ordinary couple is saving lives one ultrasound at a time
by Peter Baklinski Mon Jun 18, 2012

TACOMA, Washington, June 19, 2012 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Ultrasound machines can really change hearts when placed in the right hands. No one knows this better than Diego and Kimberly Wendt. Eight years ago while on a military deployment overseas a colleague asked the Catholic married couple what they were “doing about the issue of abortion”.

“We give money to the local crisis pregnancy center and we vote for pro-life politicians,” Diego remembers telling his colleague.

“Yes,” the colleague responded, “but what are you personally doing about abortion?” The question weighed on Diego and Kim, even after returning from deployment.

Military training had taught Diego, an air force pilot by trade, that battles are won by strategy and effective action. He learned that in any battle, you first have to know what you are fighting for. The Wendts realized that “doing something about abortion” could only mean personally fighting for the lives of unborn babies.

Pro-life political activity did not appeal to Diego and his wife as they wanted to do something that would make an immediate difference for the unborn. Picketing abortion clinics also did not appeal to them since they wanted to help a pregnant mother somehow connect to the life she carried within.

It was then that the Wendts stumbled across information about ultrasound technology. They learned that when a pregnant mother sees images of her baby in a positive environment that is both friendly and supportive, a huge number of them choose life. They also learned that just one ultrasound machine, in the course of its expected 10 year lifespan in a pregnancy center, will result in at least 2,000 choices for life.

The Wendts now knew what they were going to do about abortion.

Diego called a local crisis pregnancy center to ascertain just how much an ultrasound machine costs. “At the time, it looked to me like a laptop computer and a mouse that you rub over a woman’s tummy. So, I guessed maybe four or five thousand dollars.”

The couple was shocked to discover that the real cost of an ultrasound machine was 10 times more than they had anticipated.

“We realized that much more was needed than our own personal contribution,” he said. “Our mission was now to get people involved in raising money for purchasing ultrasound machines for pregnancy centers.”

To get people involved in their mission, the Wendts founded 4US in 2005, a local all-volunteer charity to raise funds for purchasing ultrasound machines for pregnancy centers. “4US stands for “For UltraSound”, but it also stands for the mother and her baby,” Diego said.

In its beginning years, 4US hosted charity events to raise money by means of outdoor activities that included a Ride4US, a Run4US, and a Walk4US. A motorcycle rally, music festival, and children-oriented events were later added.

In March, 2007, Diego and Kim were thrilled to deliver the first ultrasound machine to Care Net of Pierce County, Washington, a pregnancy center that provided entirely free services to their clients.

Diego explained the “beautiful way” in which Care Net centers help pregnant women.

He said that many pregnant women entering a pregnancy center feel like abortion is the “only way” out of a difficult situation. It is common for women in this situation to lack psychological support. They also may lack social support from a husband or a boyfriend and might even suffer alienation from their family. They may lack economic support. Many of them, he said, are absolutely terrified at the prospect of raising a child as a single mother.

“A woman walks into that center believing that she really has ‘no choice,’” Diego pointed out. “She feels like ‘it’s all about me. How am I going to get out of this?’”

He explained that this is where Care Net pregnancy centers do their “most important work” to help women.

They work to “eliminate fear”.

“They don’t judge the woman. They love her. They ask her what her needs are. Then they ask her if she would like to see an ultrasound of her baby,” he said.

“What is amazing is that the moment when that woman connects with her baby through the ultrasound - seeing the little tiny fingers, the tiny toes, and the beating heart - her attitude changes from ‘how am I going to get out of this’ to ‘we are going to get through this together.’”

The strategy is simple, Diego explained: “The pregnancy centers eliminate fear, the ultrasound machines illuminate hope. The ultrasound connects the woman to the life within her. Seeing the image of her baby gives her the freedom to love.”

4US not only delivers state-of-the-art ultrasound machines to pregnancy centers, but they also provide funding to train two sonographers for each center. They also make sure that each machine is hooked-up to a large 24-inch monitor.

“The extra screen is not for the mother, who can see her baby perfectly well on the ultrasound screen,” Diego explained. “It’s for the boyfriend or unsupportive family member who is looking-on with his arms crossed.”

Diego related one story that highlights just how effectively the large screen can change a heart. He said that a pregnant woman’s boyfriend once stood in a pregnancy center apprehensively watching the large screen. Suddenly, the image of the nine-week old baby started bouncing up and down on the screen.

“Oh my goodness, what’s wrong,” the young man exclaimed.

“Nothing’s wrong,” the sonographer explained. “Your baby just has hiccups.”

“Oh wow!” replied the boyfriend. “My mom said that I had hiccups all the time when she was carrying me.”

“That was the moment,” said Diego, “when the whole situation went from ‘about him’ to ‘about us.’”

Archbishop Peter Sartain of Seattle hailed the work of 4US as “praiseworthy” for bringing to life a passage of scripture that affirms God’s love for unborn babies.

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I dedicated you,” quoted the archbishop from the ancient prophet Jeremiah in a April 2012 letter that endorsed the charitable organization.

“We often see in this passage and reflect on how much God loves us each as individuals and that He created us unique and special in His divine plan for the world,” wrote the archbishop.

“This is a beautiful reality of our faith” he continued, “that underscores the profound dignity of each person and in a particular way calls us to have concerns for those who are yet unborn.”

Sartain went on to praise ultrasound technology for allowing parents to “literally ‘see’ their children in new ways and as a result are falling ever deeper in love with them.”

To help more mothers and fathers fall in love with their unborn children, Diego and Kim are eager to place an ultrasound machine in every pregnancy center, not only in their home state of Washington, but across the country.

Diego pointed out that Care Net’s 1,200 centers across the United States administer to an astounding 350,000 women each year. But because of the prohibitive cost of purchasing and operating an ultrasound machine, less than 400 centers have one.

But this does not discourage the Wendts. It makes them more determined than ever to spread their mission on a national level. They believe that as long as they do their part, God will do the rest. “God doesn’t call the equipped, He equips the called,” Diego often reminds himself.

And God appears to have faithfully equipped the called. In the last seven years 4US has delivered 20 new ultrasound machines and provided staff-training to Pregnancy Centers throughout Washington state. In the lifespan of these machines collectively, as many as 40,000 women will choose life because they were given the opportunity to connect with the hidden life of their baby in the womb.

Kim and Diego are no longer troubled over the question concerning what they are doing about abortion. For them, the answer is simple: “We’re illuminating hope through ultrasounds so that mothers and children will know the joy of life.”

Note: Material for this article was taken from a LifeSiteNews interview with Diego Wendt, founder of 4US and from material published on the 4US website.

Punishing Illegal Abortion
If abortion is murder, should aborting women be tried as murderers?

Page Summary:
Should abortion be outlawed in the future, the question of appropriate, criminal punishment becomes a fairly difficult one. Though a satisfactory answer can be hard to come by, the existence of this moral dilemma in no way lessens the case against abortion itself.

Abortion supporters occasionally pose this question to pro-lifers: “If abortion were made illegal, how should we punish women who get them?” If pro-lifers are uncertain about this, or suggest anything less than a standard, homicide-type punishment, abortion proponents believe they have exposed a glaring weakness in the pro-life view. They might respond, “You say that abortion should be illegal because it is murder, yet you don’t want to punish women who get abortions as murderers?! Clearly you are unwilling to practice what you preach!” There is a famous video on Youtube, the Libertyville Abortion Demonstration video, that attempts to discredit the pro-life position in this way.

To respond, it needs to first be emphasized that just because a pro-life proponent may be inconsistent in moving from their belief that abortion is murder to their belief about how illegal abortion should be punished, does not mean their belief about abortion is false. It only means, at worst, that they are inconsistent. Ultimately, the morality of abortion should be evaluated on whether or not it wrongfully kills an innocent human person, not on how consistently a pro-life proponent applies their belief to the hypothetical punishment of illegal abortions.

Second, there is historical precedent for making abortion illegal with severe punishment. Both in Britain and the United States, there is a long history of criminal abortion with specific punishments toward women, abortionists, and other accomplices. In Britain, in 1803, Lord Ellenborough’s Act (43 Geo. 3, c. 58) made abortion a statutory offense for the first time. Prior to this abortion was a criminal offense both by Common Law and ecclesiastical law. This act made any attempt to induce the abortion of a quickened fetus with poisons a capital felony, and it further made any attempt (by the one performing and/or pursuing it) to induce an abortion before quickening (or without proof of quickening) subject to fine, imprisonment, pillory, whipping, or transportation to the penal colonies for up to 14 years. In 1828, the Offences Against Persons Act made attempting to induce the abortion of a quickened fetus with instruments (in addition to poisons) a capital offense. In 1837, the Offences Against Persons Act, eliminated capital punishment, removed the quickened vs. non-quickened distinction and made all abortion, at any stage of pregnancy, subject to the same penalty â?? transportation to the colonies from 15 years to life, or three years in prison. In 1861, the Offences Against Persons Act, s.58, changed the maximum penalty to life in prison and specifically condemned any woman attempting an abortion on herself. J. Keown, in his book Abortion, Doctors and the Law: Some Aspects of the Legal Regulation of Abortion in Enland from 1803 to 1982 , remarks that the purpose for these regulations was primarily to protect the life of the fetus. As the medical profession began to recognize that a fetus is indeed alive well before “quickening,” this became reflected in the the amending of laws to protect fetal life at all stages of pregnancy.

Influenced by British laws against abortion, the first American statutory offense was enacted in Connecticut in 1821, making any attempt to induce abortion by poisons punishable by life in prison. This was revised in 1830, adding poisons and instruments as forbidden items. It also reduced the punishment to a maximum of ten years in prison. Missouri in 1825 and Illinois in 1827 enacted similar laws, but eliminated the quickened vs. non-quickened distinction. In 1830, New York’s abortion laws took effect. First, an attempt to induce an abortion by any means, at any stage of pregnancy, was treated as a misdemeanor punishable by up to a year in prison, but abortion intended to destroy a fetus after quickening was specified to be second degree manslaughter. Second, New York made an exception for abortions necessary to preserve the mother’s life or “advised by two physicians to be necessary for that purpose.” A revision in 1845 included a provision that made the woman who submitted to abortion guilty of a misdemeanor. In 1881, this was amended to make the woman guilty of manslaughter, as the abortionist had been since 1830, if the abortion killed a quickened fetus. Every other state enacted abortion statutes in the 1800s (except for Kentucky, which did in 1910). In the 1960s and 70s, four states liberalized their abortion laws, but immediately preceding Roe v. Wade in 1973, 46 states had abortion as illegal on their books (with various states making exceptions for cases of rape and incest or cases where the mother’s life was in danger). Thus, criminalizing abortion is not something new, and there is plenty of historical precedent to give guidance for illegal abortion, if it were to become so in the future.

A third consideration: even if the penalty for abortion were to be something less than the punishment for a standard homicide, it does not mean that abortion is a less heinous crime, or that fetuses are less valuable humans. Some states have more severe penalties for killing police officers, but this does not mean killing average citizens is less heinous or average citizens are less valuable.

As for how illegal abortion should be punished today, if it were to become illegal again, that is hard to say. Of course, if Roe were overturned all the former state laws would be re-enacted. But if historical precedent counts for anything, then the following seems appropriate for potential illegal abortion:

(1) Abortion at any stage of pregnancy should be made a criminal offense, with exceptions to preserve the life of the mother. This was a very standard historical position.

(2) A more severe punishment should be given to the abortionist, as he or she is the one profiting off the abortion practice and would likely have a much fuller understanding of what an abortion does to a developing human being in utero. Past statutes normally punished with a long prison sentence.

(3) A less severe punishment should be given to the woman found guilty of inducing abortion, with increasing severity for repeated offenses. However, since convicting someone of a crime requires evidence, and there likely would be little material evidence in abortion cases, it may be appropriate to offer the woman impunity or a lesser charge in exchange for testimony against the abortionist.

Maybe you could give cliff notes KD. I’d love to read it all, but I only have so much time to spare.

Towards the top it says “Page Summary” at least for the Abort73 pages I recently shared the articles from ; )

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
Maybe you could give cliff notes KD. I’d love to read it all, but I only have so much time to spare. [/quote]

Does it really matter what percentage of people believe a lie? The hope is always there that people will realize how atrocious the act of abortion is.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
A Canadian pro-LIFE site.

http://www.unmaskingchoice.ca/[/quote]

70% of Canadians are pro-choice.

Even our Evangelical prime minister has stated to never touch the abortion issue. It would be political suicide anyhow.

Just saying there’s almost no chance laws change here.[/quote]

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
I don’t see that at all. Almost ALL adjectives have a noun counterpart. Please describe to me how the words used destroy my argument.

[/quote]

You don’t see it, because like I said before, you refuse to entertain anything anyone writes that might prove you to be incorrect. (This would explain why you ran away from the drinking age conversation you started.) I cannot believe you refuse to acknowledge that you are fully aware what a fucking adjective is, and how it is different than a noun, because it would ruin your bunk rebuttal.

I cannot fathom a grown, educated man would link a definition he didn’t comprehend.

But you know what, I’m going to show you why, that was a post rife with inconsistencies.

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Redefining words to win an argument will NEVER allow you to win the debate.[/quote]

That isn’t what she did. Not at all. Not for one instant did she do that.

Did she imply that a fetus is analogous to a parasite by using the adjective “parasitic”? I’m about to get to that

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
par�·a�·site - [par-uh-sahyt]
noun[/quote]

I’m a super-fan of your google-fu, but too bad you are quoting and linking a word she didn’t use. Notice you quoted and linked to a noun, parasite. She used an adjective, parasitic. Adjectives describe nouns. Which means she used a word that means “what I’m talking about acts like a parasite.” She used the adjective parasitic to imply a fetus acts like a parasite. She did not, in fact call it a parasite.

Note my use of the word “like” in the second to last sentence. I am going to refute the argument brewing in your brain as you read this: one noun, one thing, doesn’t have to be a parasite to be described as acting like a parasite. That is the point of an adjective, to describe nouns.

She was describing a noun, using an adjective. You defined a noun, one she didn’t even use.

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:

  1. an organism that lives on or in [i][u]an organism of another species[/i][/u], known as the host, from the body of which it obtains nutriment.[/quote]

The distinction between noun and adjective here is important because note what you emphasized as proof of her fallacy. The portion of the definition you posted that speaks to a parasite being a separate species. This is were you claiming she is “redefining” a word is totally and completely false, therefore destroying your rebuttal.

She didn’t say the fetus was a parasite, she said it was parasitic. (I cannot believe I have to explain this…) She said it acts like a parasite, which would make what species it was moot, because you don’t have to be the noun to be described as having the characteristics of said noun.

So therefore she didn’t “redefine” anything. You just made a bad rebuttal. You shot for the empty net, and the puck hit the goal post.

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Calling a newborn, who is the exact same species as the mother is a blatant attempt appealing to others emotions.[/quote]

Okay, first off, you are in no position to be calling others out on appeals to emotion. That would make you the largest hypocrite I have run across in a long time. The first photo you posted in the first post to the first thread that spawned this very thread was an appeal to emotion. (It also, most likely, exploited an innocent child to further an agenda that the child likely didn’t comprehend. But I’m speculating here.)

This is an emotional topic, and appeals to emotion are expected, and at times, almost necessary. If appeals to emotion where removed from this thread, your post count, among others, would drop dramatically. I would imagine it would still be in the first thread.

Secondly, she didn’t call the newborn anything. Nice try though. She was clearly speaking of an unborn child.

Third, she didn’t “call” the unborn child anything. She described it as being like something. Dang, that pesky little difference between a noun and adjective comes into play again.

Fourth, you or anyone else could get every doctor, priest and president that has ever lived to line up and show me study after study and chart after chart, lay the facts right down in front of me that shows how a fetus and a trichinella behave in a manor that is indistinguishable from each other for X amount of weeks, and I will reject the very notion it is possible. I’d sooner clean my ears with a shotgun that admit it was true, even if it were true.

That is why I’m taking exception to your post to her. I agree with the point you are trying to make. But you do such a bad job of making it, it makes me not want to agree, and I have to.

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
If you would like to have a discussion, then please come forward with an open mind.[/quote]

This has to be a joke coming from you.

Your mind, at least about this topic, is so far from open it couldn’t be any further away. You cannot honestly believe you are open minded about this.

This statement is also completely irrelevant to her post, or your response until this point.

Now, I’m not saying your mind not being open about the subject is right or wrong. I have respect for your enthusiasm and determination. And I would imagine not having an open mind is why you are the way you are about it. So don’t take me pointing out how ludicrous it is for you to ask someone to “come forward with an open mind” about this topic as a slight. It isn’t. It is ludicrous, but not a slight.

The whole “I respond above your quotes to appear superior” is annoying as hell too.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:

Regarding the bolded part :
I absolutely agree, but how does this contradict what i said earlier ?

[/quote]

Well I can take your argument to an absurd conclusion.

We shouldn’t kill animals because they are also unique beings.

[/quote]

This is not an absurd conclusion.
Only an impractical one.

Actually, we shouldn’t kill animal beings. Nor vegetal beings.
But

  1. there is no choice here. Our actions will always lead, directly or indirectly, to the death of some animal and/or vegetal beings.
    It’s a necessary evil. But it’s still an evil.

  2. Animals compete with each others and kill each others, so, if we want to respect the lives of ALL beings equally, we have to do it globally, taking the whole ecosystem into account, and trying to preserve or even increase biodiversity.

The “good gardener” way, not the “PETA hysteria” way. [/quote]

Well at least you’re logically consistent, I’ll give you that.

Frankly, I’ll doubt you’ll find many supporters on this site agreeing that killing cows, pigs and chickens is immoral.
[/quote]

You could be surprised.
Some people on this site think that killing cows, pigs and chickens is immoral (ot at least not morally neutral) if you don’t follow some ritual rules.
Btw, that’s exactly what the vast majority of human cultures thought and did over the vast majority of our history.
Like legalized abortion, industrialized (and morally neutralized) killing is a recent addition.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
I don’t see that at all. Almost ALL adjectives have a noun counterpart. Please describe to me how the words used destroy my argument.

[/quote]

You don’t see it, because like I said before, you refuse to entertain anything anyone writes that might prove you to be incorrect. (This would explain why you ran away from the drinking age conversation you started.) I cannot believe you refuse to acknowledge that you are fully aware what a fucking adjective is, and how it is different than a noun, because it would ruin your bunk rebuttal.

I cannot fathom a grown, educated man would link a definition he didn’t comprehend.

But you know what, I’m going to show you why, that was a post rife with inconsistencies.

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Redefining words to win an argument will NEVER allow you to win the debate.[/quote]

That isn’t what she did. Not at all. Not for one instant did she do that.

Did she imply that a fetus is analogous to a parasite by using the adjective “parasitic”? I’m about to get to that

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
par�??�?�·a�??�?�·site - [par-uh-sahyt]
noun[/quote]

I’m a super-fan of your google-fu, but too bad you are quoting and linking a word she didn’t use. Notice you quoted and linked to a noun, parasite. She used an adjective, parasitic. Adjectives describe nouns. Which means she used a word that means “what I’m talking about acts like a parasite.” She used the adjective parasitic to imply a fetus acts like a parasite. She did not, in fact call it a parasite.

Note my use of the word “like” in the second to last sentence. I am going to refute the argument brewing in your brain as you read this: one noun, one thing, doesn’t have to be a parasite to be described as acting like a parasite. That is the point of an adjective, to describe nouns.

She was describing a noun, using an adjective. You defined a noun, one she didn’t even use.

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:

  1. an organism that lives on or in [i][u]an organism of another species[/i][/u], known as the host, from the body of which it obtains nutriment.[/quote]

The distinction between noun and adjective here is important because note what you emphasized as proof of her fallacy. The portion of the definition you posted that speaks to a parasite being a separate species. This is were you claiming she is “redefining” a word is totally and completely false, therefore destroying your rebuttal.

She didn’t say the fetus was a parasite, she said it was parasitic. (I cannot believe I have to explain this…) She said it acts like a parasite, which would make what species it was moot, because you don’t have to be the noun to be described as having the characteristics of said noun.

So therefore she didn’t “redefine” anything. You just made a bad rebuttal. You shot for the empty net, and the puck hit the goal post.

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Calling a newborn, who is the exact same species as the mother is a blatant attempt appealing to others emotions.[/quote]

Okay, first off, you are in no position to be calling others out on appeals to emotion. That would make you the largest hypocrite I have run across in a long time. The first photo you posted in the first post to the first thread that spawned this very thread was an appeal to emotion. (It also, most likely, exploited an innocent child to further an agenda that the child likely didn’t comprehend. But I’m speculating here.)

This is an emotional topic, and appeals to emotion are expected, and at times, almost necessary. If appeals to emotion where removed from this thread, your post count, among others, would drop dramatically. I would imagine it would still be in the first thread.

Secondly, she didn’t call the newborn anything. Nice try though. She was clearly speaking of an unborn child.

Third, she didn’t “call” the unborn child anything. She described it as being like something. Dang, that pesky little difference between a noun and adjective comes into play again.

Fourth, you or anyone else could get every doctor, priest and president that has ever lived to line up and show me study after study and chart after chart, lay the facts right down in front of me that shows how a fetus and a trichinella behave in a manor that is indistinguishable from each other for X amount of weeks, and I will reject the very notion it is possible. I’d sooner clean my ears with a shotgun that admit it was true, even if it were true.

That is why I’m taking exception to your post to her. I agree with the point you are trying to make. But you do such a bad job of making it, it makes me not want to agree, and I have to.

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
If you would like to have a discussion, then please come forward with an open mind.[/quote]

This has to be a joke coming from you.

Your mind, at least about this topic, is so far from open it couldn’t be any further away. You cannot honestly believe you are open minded about this.

This statement is also completely irrelevant to her post, or your response until this point.

Now, I’m not saying your mind not being open about the subject is right or wrong. I have respect for your enthusiasm and determination. And I would imagine not having an open mind is why you are the way you are about it. So don’t take me pointing out how ludicrous it is for you to ask someone to “come forward with an open mind” about this topic as a slight. It isn’t. It is ludicrous, but not a slight.

The whole “I respond above your quotes to appear superior” is annoying as hell too.

[/quote]

Well, I tried to warn you. I hope you enjoy tediously explaining remedial things (like how words work…) with painful specificity, because that’s essentially what the rest of your debate is lined up to be.

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

Well, I tried to warn you. I hope you enjoy tediously explaining remedial things (like how words work) with painful specificity, because that’s essentially what the rest of your debate is lined up to be. [/quote]

You remind me a lot of another poster long lost to the interwebs. It is a good thing, he was a good dude deep down.

But yeah, I thought of your post once I clicked submit and realized what I had just done.

Has to be a ploy.

the main problem i see with the argument that “a fetus is parasitic” is that it’s equally true of most 20 year old kids.

At birth, an endogenous “parasite” become an exogenous “parasite”. But that’s all.

Is it really so hard to find an argument that justify the killing of a fetus without justifying the killing of one third of mankind at the same time ?

[quote]kamui wrote:
the main problem i see with the argument that “a fetus is parasitic” is that it’s equally true of most 20 year old kids.

At birth, an endogenous “parasite” become an exogenous “parasite”. But that’s all.

Is it really so hard to find an argument that justify the killing of a fetus without justifying the killing of one third of mankind at the same time ? [/quote]

But, if necessary can a 20 yr old not survive on its own? A fetus/newborn can’t.

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:
the main problem i see with the argument that “a fetus is parasitic” is that it’s equally true of most 20 year old kids.

At birth, an endogenous “parasite” become an exogenous “parasite”. But that’s all.

Is it really so hard to find an argument that justify the killing of a fetus without justifying the killing of one third of mankind at the same time ? [/quote]

But, if necessary can a 20 yr old not survive on its own? A fetus/newborn can’t.[/quote]

It depends on your definition of “on its own”.
I never met an human being who can survive purely on its own. Except a few libertarians… in their dreams.

The real question is not “if”. It’s “how long ?”.
Granted, a fetus would die earlier. But it’s only a difference of degree, not kind. Which is the point.
Again : that’s not a real line. Only an arbitrary “ad hoc” one.

[quote]Nards wrote:<<< If you mean that the fetus doesn’t feel pain or is not at all aware of itself and all that?

It still wouldn’t change the fact that a fetus that is left untouched pops out as a baby when nine months are though.[/quote]Very good. As far as it goes.

[quote]Cortes wrote:<<< And if I am misreading your intentions here, please forgive my assumptions I make that lead to what I have to say here: >>>[/quote]Nope. You read me right here. [quote]Cortes wrote:<<< your question isn’t reaaaally about abortion. It’s about faith vs. works, perceived lack of faith, possibly even in-fidelity, is it not? >>>[/quote]But not here. There is nothing unfaithful about how my pro life allies are conducting themselves in this thread. I’m just curious what their highest standard is. Unless THAT’s what you meant by your last statement quoted above.

U.S. Teen Pregnancy Rates Dramatically Decline, Hit Lowest Level in 30 Years

http://medicaldaily.com/news/20120620/10381/american-teen-pregnancy-rates-decreased.htm

Good news.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Nards wrote:<<< If you mean that the fetus doesn’t feel pain or is not at all aware of itself and all that?

It still wouldn’t change the fact that a fetus that is left untouched pops out as a baby when nine months are though.[/quote]Very good. As far as it goes.

[quote]Cortes wrote:<<< And if I am misreading your intentions here, please forgive my assumptions I make that lead to what I have to say here: >>>[/quote]Nope. You read me right here. [quote]Cortes wrote:<<< your question isn’t reaaaally about abortion. It’s about faith vs. works, perceived lack of faith, possibly even in-fidelity, is it not? >>>[/quote]But not here. There is nothing unfaithful about how my pro life allies are conducting themselves in this thread. I’m just curious what their highest standard is. Unless THAT’s what you meant by your last statement quoted above.
[/quote]

My standard is your standard, else why even bother? It wouldn’t matter.

It just so also happens to be true that science and philosophy also support my conclusions, and immediacy and practicality compel me to use these tools for this job. If I were arguing with other Christians about this upon a theological level, I’d use different tools.

[quote]kamui wrote:
the main problem i see with the argument that “a fetus is parasitic” is that it’s equally true of most 20 year old kids.

[/quote]

If someone is using the term parasitic in a flippant tone, then yes, kids, particularly teenagers are parasitic. I make this joke all the time.

I’m really trying not to take positions in this thread, but ask questions/make demands of both sides in order to learn. However, when someone wants to call a fetus parasitic as a justification, I just cannot keep my opinions out of it.

Dirty debate tactic or not, there is nothing, not one single thing in this world that could convince me that a fetus is analogous with a parasite. I would also question the moral fiber of someone that could look at it that way.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:

Regarding the bolded part :
I absolutely agree, but how does this contradict what i said earlier ?

[/quote]

Well I can take your argument to an absurd conclusion.

We shouldn’t kill animals because they are also unique beings.

[/quote]

This is not an absurd conclusion.
Only an impractical one.

Actually, we shouldn’t kill animal beings. Nor vegetal beings.
But

  1. there is no choice here. Our actions will always lead, directly or indirectly, to the death of some animal and/or vegetal beings.
    It’s a necessary evil. But it’s still an evil.

  2. Animals compete with each others and kill each others, so, if we want to respect the lives of ALL beings equally, we have to do it globally, taking the whole ecosystem into account, and trying to preserve or even increase biodiversity.

The “good gardener” way, not the “PETA hysteria” way. [/quote]

Well at least you’re logically consistent, I’ll give you that.

Frankly, I’ll doubt you’ll find many supporters on this site agreeing that killing cows, pigs and chickens is immoral.
[/quote]

Well if they weren’t so damn tasty it might be…

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Does it really matter what percentage of people believe a lie? The hope is always there that people will realize how atrocious the act of abortion is.
[/quote]

If your goal is to change people’s minds yes.