The Abortion Thread

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
Pat,

You think it is a bullshit argument because you don’t see a difference between a zygote and a person, I do and so do the majority of Americans.[/quote]

However, the majority of Americans are against abortion

Pat,

a zygote is not a human being, it is a single celled precursor to a human being made up of human tissue and DNA, it is human life, just like a sperm or an egg, but that is it, it doesn’t feel pain, it has no organs, no features, no thought process etc.
the catholic church used to believe life began around 16.5 weeks, i would think that a human being is created when a viable human embryo could survive outside the womb (approx. 5 months) but I would err on the side of caution and figure 3 months is a good figure.
a person stops being a person when they die.

ZEB,

Yep, now ask them to repeal abortion and grant personhood to fetuses, it worked very well in the most conservative state in the country (Mississippi where 78% of the residents call themselves pro-life), I’m sure it would be a huge hit at the polls, maybe Romney should just run on that.

http://www.campaignsandelections.com/print/295547/defeating-and39personhoodand39-in-mississippi.thtml

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
Pat,

a zygote is not a human being, it is a single celled precursor to a human being made up of human tissue and DNA, it is human life, just like a sperm or an egg, but that is it, it doesn’t feel pain, [/quote]

Please tell us how you know that to be a fact?

Used to…USED TO. Now how is that rationalization going for you?

LOL…well doctor B r i a n…Thank you for that wonderful and very complete thought.

Wow, you are sharpt today!

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
ZEB,

Yep, now ask them to repeal abortion and grant personhood to fetuses, it worked very well in the most conservative state in the country (Mississippi where 78% of the residents call themselves pro-life), I’m sure it would be a huge hit at the polls, maybe Romney should just run on that.

http://www.campaignsandelections.com/print/295547/defeating-and39personhoodand39-in-mississippi.thtml[/quote]

Very interesting link. It seems that very clever targeted advertising from the left won the day.

[quote]
Just so you know, I pointed out that a zygote, while it is alive and has the genetic make-up of a human being, is not a human being for the very simple reason that it is not a human being. Zygotes are naturally aborted at least 20% of the time (this number may be much, much higher), they are not people anymore than an egg is a chicken. If you look at a zygote you cannot even tell if it is a human a chimp or a puppy they look the same, they cannot feel pain, they have one cell at formation etc. The life begins at conception argument is silly, a sperm is human life, so is an egg, a human life and a human being aren’t the same.[/quote]

sperm is not human life. It is not an organism.

And a fertilized chicken egg IS a chicken.

btw, your argument shifted from “a zygote is not an human being” to “a zygote is not a person”

the first argument is absurd. I already shown why.
the latter one is arguably better, but it is extremely dangerous.

The implied proposiion is that “personhood” is the basis of ethical and legal rights.
But it’s not the case, and it can’t be the case.
There is no way to deny the personhood of a zygote without denying the personhood of other people at the same time.
Disabled people, people in deep coma, sleeping people, women, senile people, anaesthesied people, inebriated people, young children, people suffering from psychosis, etc. All these people will (permanently or temporarily) NOT fit the criteria of “personhood”.
Is it ok to kill them ?

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
ZEB,

Yep, now ask them to repeal abortion and grant personhood to fetuses, it worked very well in the most conservative state in the country (Mississippi where 78% of the residents call themselves pro-life), I’m sure it would be a huge hit at the polls, maybe Romney should just run on that.

http://www.campaignsandelections.com/print/295547/defeating-and39personhoodand39-in-mississippi.thtml[/quote]

Very interesting link. It seems that very clever targeted advertising from the left won the day. [/quote]

FWIW we had the same issue on the ballot a couple of years ago here and it got killed (pun not intended).

But the problem was in the language of the intiative here if I remember correctly. They had worded it really bad to the point that alot of elected or those up for election agreed with the premise but couldn’t back it due to the language (again I’m trying to recall from memory here).

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
Pat,

a zygote is not a human being, it is a single celled precursor to a human being made up of human tissue and DNA, it is human life, just like a sperm or an egg, but that is it, it doesn’t feel pain, it has no organs, no features, no thought process etc.
[/quote]
Neither the sperm or the egg are human life. The zygote, is not a precursor. And you said yourself it’s a human life. You cannot both have a human life and a precursor to a human life occupying the same space. It’s either a human life or a precursor to a human life. Here’s where your argument falls apart. Let’s examine the facts:
-Is it alive? Yes.
-Is it autonomous? Yes.
-Is it human? Yes.

This is also verified by science. There is no discernible break or addition to that human life, save for development which only stops at death. So this idea that’s it’s a precursor is bullshit. There is nothing more needed to make that little bitty thing, a human. You can wish is to be something it’s not.

[quote]
the catholic church used to believe life began around 16.5 weeks, i would think that a human being is created when a viable human embryo could survive outside the womb (approx. 5 months) but I would err on the side of caution and figure 3 months is a good figure.
a person stops being a person when they die.[/quote]

In the middle ages…What the church believed on 1100 AD was based on the best science at the time. I heard Nasty Pelosi try that same horseshit. That evil bitch has the blood of thousands if not millions on her hands. They also didn’t have evil assholes with knives and vaccum clears all giddy to take the human life out.

And certainly when you kill a unborn child you have killed a human life so then is ceases.

kamui wrote:

[quote]

The implied proposiion is that “personhood” is the basis of ethical and legal rights.
But it’s not the case, and it can’t be the case.
There is no way to deny the personhood of a zygote without denying the personhood of other people at the same time.
Disabled people, people in deep coma, sleeping people, women, senile people, anaesthesied people, inebriated people, young children, people suffering from psychosis, etc. All these people will (permanently or temporarily) NOT fit the criteria of “personhood”.
Is it ok to kill them ?[/quote]

You had me up till this. This proposition is just fucking stupid. I hope the others on this side of the fence dont feel the same way. Really? Trying to compare a drunk person with a zygote as far as rights of personhood? Yeah, while we’re at it let’s allow zygotes to run for office.

[quote]storey420 wrote:
kamui wrote:

[quote]

The implied proposiion is that “personhood” is the basis of ethical and legal rights.
But it’s not the case, and it can’t be the case.
There is no way to deny the personhood of a zygote without denying the personhood of other people at the same time.
Disabled people, people in deep coma, sleeping people, women, senile people, anaesthesied people, inebriated people, young children, people suffering from psychosis, etc. All these people will (permanently or temporarily) NOT fit the criteria of “personhood”.
Is it ok to kill them ?[/quote]

You had me up till this. This proposition is just fucking stupid. I hope the others on this side of the fence dont feel the same way. Really? Trying to compare a drunk person with a zygote as far as rights of personhood? Yeah, while we’re at it let’s allow zygotes to run for office.[/quote]

People who can’t run for office can be killed ?

If “being conscious”, “feeling pain”, “being sentient”, “being autonomous” etc are the criteria of personhood
And
If “personhood” is required to have a right to life
Then
Many or all the categories of people i cited above doesn’t have a right to life.

It’s just the logical and inescapable consequence of pro-choice’s argument of personhood.

Pat,kamui,

the church changed their position in 1869, far from the middle ages.

a zygote is alive, it is life, it is not a human being

it is not a person unless a new definition of that word has sprung up. a zygote lacks organs, sensation, thought, the ability to demonstrate any sentience at all.

comparing drunks, the disabled, and zygotes is ridiculous, because as I have already stated, a zygote is not a person, though it is alive.

an egg does not contain the same traits as a chicken, it is a precursor to a chicken, it starts as a single celled organism and then gradually grows into a chicken.

it is perfectly reasonable to deny the personhood of a zygote, since it is not a person, it is a zygote

Thank you for providing links, however every single one touches topics, but never address the topic at hand. When personhood begins and is abortion taking an innocent life.

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001488.htm[/quote] Misscarriages have never justified aborting which is the direct killing of a fetus.

[quote]HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost One, this is America not the UK. Secondly “Sedgh acknowledged it was difficult to get an accurate number for unsafe abortions in particular and described their estimates as modest.” Modest is defined as - limited in size, amount, or scope, taken from; - Modest Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster #4

[quote]http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2012/02/teen-pregnancy-higher-red-states-blue-states[/quote] Your point?

[quote]http://asiancorrespondent.com/60958/taiwans-astonishing-abortion-rate/[/quote] Headline reads; “Taiwan’s astonishing abortion rate” and again your point?

[quote]http://www.stjohn-holyangels.com/attachments/article/6/ARAAP%20St%20Johns-Holy%20Angels%20Call%20Your%20Rep%20Poster%20041911.pdf[/quote] Read the PDF and guess their stance on abortion.

[quote]and salon.com an article titled “Abortion Rates”[/quote] You mean like this? - http://open.salon.com/blog/jlw1/2012/01/24/abortion_rates_--_lowest_where_its_legal - I assume because it never clarifies, the article is comparing abortions outside a medical facility in countries where abortions are illegal versus legal. This is not even pertinent to the discussion because of course you are going to see lopsided data. Is that accuate to the truth? Not even close. Try again please.

Awesome article and the myth/fact section is especially pertinent.

American Bioethics Advisory Commission
When do human beings begin?
“Scientific” myths and scientific facts

Dianne N. Irving, M.A., Ph.D.
Professor of Philosophy
Dominican House of Studies
Washington, D.C. 20017

[Note: This article was originally published in “Abortion and Rights,” a special edition of the International Journal of Sociology and Social Policy, edited by Doris Gordon and John Walker of Libertarians for Life (Vol. 19, No. 3/4, 1999, Barmarick Publications, England). All the articles in “Abortion and Rights” can be read on LFL’s website.]

I. Introduction:

The question as to when a human being begins is strictly a scientific question, and should be answered by human embryologists - not by philosophers, bioethicists, theologians, politicians, x-ray technicians, movie stars or obstetricians and gynecologists. Current discussions on abortion, human embryo research (including cloning, stem cell research and the formation of mixed-species chimeras) and the use of abortifacients involve specific claims as to when the life of every human being begins. The purpose of this article is to focus directly on just some of the “scientific” myths, and on the objective scientific facts that ought to ground these discussions. At least it will clarify what the actual international consensus of human embryologists is with regard to this relatively simple scientific question. If the “science” used to ground these various discussions is incorrect, then any conclusions will be rendered groundless and invalid.

II. Brief background on the accurate human embryological facts:

Understanding just a few basic human embryological terms accurately can considerably clarify the drastic difference between the “scientific” myths that are currently circulating throughout the literature, and the actual objective scientific facts. This would include such basic terms as: “gametogenesis,” “oogenesis,” “spermatogenesis,” “fertilization,” “zygote,” “embryo” and “blastocyst.” Only brief scientific descriptions will be given here for these terms. Further, more complicated, details can be obtained by investigating any well-established human embryology textbook in the library, such as some of those referenced below. Please note that the scientific facts presented here are not simply a matter of my own opinion. They are direct quotes and references from some of the most highly respected human embryology textbooks, and represent a consensus of human embryologists internationally.

To begin with, scientifically something very dramatic occurs between the processes of gametogenesis and fertilization - the change from two simple PARTS of a human being, i.e., a sperm and an oocyte (usually referred to as an “ovum” or “egg”), which simply possess “human life” into a new, genetically unique, newly existing, individual, live human BEING, an embryonic single-cell human zygote. That is, parts of a human being have actually been transformed into something very different from what they were before; they have been changed into a single, whole human being. During this process, the sperm and the oocyte cease to exist, and a new human being is produced.

To understand this, it is already known that each kind of living organism has a specific number and quality of chromosomes which are characteristic for each member of a species (the number can vary only slightly if the organism is to survive). For example, the characteristic number of chromosomes for a member of the human species is 46 (plus or minus, e.g., in human beings with Down or Turner’s syndromes). Every somatic cell in a human being has this characteristic number of chromosomes, including the sex gametes - the sperm and the oocyte. Sperms and oocytes are derived from primitive germ cells in the developing fetus by means of the process known as “gametogenesis.” Because each gamete normally has 46 chromosomes, the process of “fertilization” can not take place until the total number of chromosomes in each gamete are cut in half. This is necessary so that after their fusion at fertilization the characteristic number of chromosomes in a single individual member of the human species (46) can be maintained. To accurately see why a sperm or an oocyte are considered as only possessing human life, and not as human beings themselves, one need look at the basic scientific facts involved in the processes of gametogesesis and of fertilization.

As the human embryologist Larsen states it, gametogenesis is the process that converts primordial germ cells (primitive sex cells) into mature sex gametes - in the male (spermatozoa, or sperms), and in the female (definitive oocytes). The timing of gametogenesis is different in males and in females. Spermatogenesis in males begins at puberty, and continues throughout adult life. The process involves the production of spermatogonia from the primitive germ cells, which in turn become primary spermatocytes, and finally spermatids - or mature spermatozoa (sperms). These mature sperms will have only half of the number of their original chromosomes - i.e., the number of chromosomes has been cut from 46 to 23, and therefore they are ready to take part in fertilization.

Oogenesis begins in the female during fetal life. The total number of primary oocytes - about 7 million - is produced in the female fetus’ ovaries by 5 months of gestation in the mother’s uterus. By birth, only about 700,000 - 2 million remain. By puberty, only about 400,000 remain. The process involves the production of oogonia from primitive germ cells, which in turn become primary oocytes, which become definitive oocytes only at puberty. This definitive oocyte is what is released each month during the female’s menstrual period, but it still has 46 chromosomes. In fact, it does not reduce its number of chromosomes until and unless it is fertilized by the sperm, during which process the definitive oocyte becomes a secondary oocyte with only 23 chromosomes.

This halving of the number of chromosomes in the gametes takes place by the process of meiosis. Many people confuse meiosis with a different process known as mitosis, but there is an important difference. Mitosis involves the normal division of a somatic, or body, cell in order to increase the number of those cells during growth and development. The resulting cells contain the same number of chromosomes as the previous cells - in human beings, 46. Meiosis involves the halving of the number of chromosomes which are normally present in a somatic cell (here, in the sex gametes - the precursors of the sperm and the definitive oocyte) in order for fertilization to take place. The resulting cells have only half of the number of chromosomes as the previous cells - in human beings, 23

One of the best and most technically accurate explanations for this critical process of gametogenesis is by Ronan O’Rahilly, the human embryologist who developed the classic Carnegie stages of human embryological development. He also sits on the international board of Nomina Embryologica (which determines the correct terminology to be used in human embryology textbooks internationally):

Gametogenesis is the production of [gametes], i.e., spermatozoa and oocytes. These cells are produced in the gonads, i.e., the testes and ovaries respectively. - During the differentiation of gametes, diploid cells (those with a double set of chromosomes, as found in somatic cells [46 chromosomes]) are termed primary, and haploid cells (those with a single set of chromosomes [23 chromosomes]) are called secondary. The reduction of chromosomal number �?�¢?�?�¦ from 46 (the diploid number or 2n) to 23 (the haploid number or n) is accomplished by a cellular division termed meiosis. - Spermatogenesis, the production of spermatozoa, continues from immediately after puberty until old age. It takes place in the testis, which is also an endoctrine gland, the interstitial cells of which secrete testosterone. Previous to puberty, spermatogonia in the simiferous tubules of the testis remain relatively inactive. After puberty, under stimulation from the interstitial cells, spermatogonia proliferate �?�¢?�?�¦ and some become primary spermatocytes. When these undergo their first maturation division (meiosis 1), they become secondary spermatocytes. The second maturation division (meiosis 2) results in spermatids, which become converted into spermatozoa."

Oogenesis is the production and maturation of oocytes, i.e.; the female gametes derived from oogonia. Oogonia (derived from primordial germ cells) multiply by mitosis and become primary oocytes. The number of oogonia increases to nearly seven million by the middle of prenatal life, after which it diminishes to about two million at birth. From these, several thousand oocytes are derived, several hundred of which mature and are liberated (ovulated) during a reproductive period of some thirty years. Prophase of meiosis 1 begins during fetal life but ceases at the diplotene state, which persists during childhood. - After puberty, meiosis 1 is resumed and a secondary oocyte - is formed, together with polar body 1, which can be regarded as an oocyte having a reduced share of cytoplasm. The secondary oocyte is a female gamete in which the first meiotic division is completed and the second has begun. From oogonium to secondary oocyte takes from about 12 to 50 years to be completed. Meiosis 2 is terminated after rupture of the follicle (ovulation) but only if a spermatozoon penetrates. Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??Ã?¦ The term “ovum” implies that polar body 2 has been given off, which event is usually delayed until the oocyte has been penetrated by a spermatozoon (i.e., has been fertilized). Hence a human ovum does not [really] exist. Moreover the term has been used for such disparate structures as an oocyte and a three-week embryo, and therefore should be discarded, as a fortiori should “egg.” (emphasis added)

Thus, for fertilization to be accomplished, a mature sperm and a mature human oocyte are needed. Before fertilization, each has only 23 chromosomes. They each possess “human life,” since they are parts of a living human being; but they are not each whole living human beings themselves. They each have only 23 chromosomes, not 46 chromosomes - the number of chromosomes necessary and characteristic for a single individual member of the human species. Furthermore, a sperm can produce only “sperm” proteins and enzymes; an oocyte can produce only “oocyte” proteins and enzymes; neither alone is or can produce a human being with 46 chromosomes.

Also, note O’Rahilly’s statement that the use of terms such as “ovum” and “egg” - which would include the term “fertilized egg” - is scientifically incorrect, has no objective correlate in reality, and is therefore very misleading - especially in these present discussions. Thus these terms themselves would qualify as “scientific myths.” The commonly used term, “fertilized egg,” is especially very misleading, since there is really no longer an egg (or oocyte) once fertilization has begun. A “fertilized egg” is a human being.

Now that we have looked at the formation of the mature haploid sex gametes, the next important process to consider is fertilization. O’Rahilly defines fertilization as:

"the procession of events that begins when a spermatozoon makes contact with a secondary oocyte or its investments, and ends with the intermingling of maternal and paternal chromosomes at metaphase of the first mitotic division of the zygote. The zygote is characteristic of the last phase of fertilization and is identified by the first cleavage spindle. It is a unicellular embryo. (emphasis added)

The fusion of the sperm (with 23 chromosomes) and the oocyte (with 23 chromosomes) at fertilization results in a live human being, a single-cell human zygote, with 46 chromosomes - the number of chromosomes characteristic of an individual member of the human species. Quoting Moore:

Zygote: This cell results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo). The expression fertilized ovum refers to a secondary oocyte that is impregnated by a sperm; when fertilization is complete, the oocyte becomes a zygote. (emphasis added)

This new single-cell human being immediately produces specifically human proteins and enzymes (not carrot or frog enzymes and proteins), and directs his/her own growth and development (in fact this growth and development has been proven not to be directed by the mother). Finally, this new human being - the single-cell human zygote - is biologically an individual, a living organism - an individual member of the human species. Quoting Larsen:

Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??Ã?¦ “[W]e begin our description of the developing human with the formation and differentiation of the male and female sex cells or gametes, which will unite at fertilization to initiate the embryonic development of a new individual.”

In sum, a human sperm and a human oocyte are products of gametogenesis - each has only 23 chromosomes. They each have only half of the required number of chromosomes for a human being. They cannot singly develop further into human beings. They produce only “gamete” proteins and enzymes. They do not direct their own growth and development. And they are not individuals, i.e., members of the human species. They are only parts - each one a part of a human being. On the other hand, a human being is the immediate product of fertilization. As such he/she is a single-cell embryonic zygote, an organism with 46 chromosomes, the number required of a member of the human species. This human being immediately produces specifically human proteins and enzymes, directs his/her own further growth and development as human, and is a new, genetically unique, newly existing, live human individual.

After fertilization the single-cell human embryo doesn’t become another kind of thing. It simply divides and grows bigger and bigger, developing through several stages as an embryo over an 8-week period. Several of these developmental stages of the growing embryo are denoted as a morula (about 4 days), a blastocyst (5-7 days), a bi-laminar (two layer) embryo (during the second week), and a trilaminar (3-layer) embryo (during the third week).

III. “Scientific myths” and scientific facts:

Given these basic facts of human embryology, it is easier to recognize the many scientifically inaccurate claims that have been advanced in the discussions about abortion, human embryo research, cloning, stem cell research, the formation of chimeras, and the use of abortifacients - and why these discussions obfuscate the objective scientific facts. The following is just a sampling of some of these current “scientific myths.”

MYTH 1: “Pro-lifers claim that the abortion of a human embryo or a human fetus is wrong because it destroys human life. But human sperms and human ova are human life too. So pro-lifers would also have to say that the destruction of human sperms and human ova are abortions too - and that is ridiculous!”

FACT 1: As pointed out above in the background section, there is quite a difference, scientifically, between parts of a human being that only possess “human life” and a human embryo or human fetus that is an actual “human being.” Abortion is the destruction of a human being. Destroying a human sperm or a human oocyte would not constitute abortion, since neither are human beings. The issue is not when does human LIFE begin, but rather when does the life of every human BEING begin. A human kidney or liver, a human skin cell, a sperm or an oocyte all possess human LIFE, but they are not human BEINGS - they are only parts of a human being. If a single sperm or a single oocyte were implanted into a woman’s uterus, they would simply rot. They would not grow as human embryos or human fetuses who are human beings.

MYTH 2: “The product of fertilization is simply a ‘blob’, a ‘bunch of cells’, a ‘piece of the mother’s tissues’.”

FACT 2: As demonstrated above, the human embryonic organism formed at fertilization is a whole human being, and therefore it is not just a “blob” or a “bunch of cells.” This new human individual also has a mixture of both the mother’s and the father’s chromosomes, and therefore it is not just a “piece of the mother’s tissues.” Quoting Carlson:

… [T]hrough the mingling of maternal and paternal chromosomes, the zygote is a genetically unique product of chromosomal reassortment, which is important for the viability of any species. (emphasis added)

MYTH 3: “The immediate product of fertilization is just a ‘potential’ or a ‘possible’ human being - not a real existing human being.”

FACT 3: As demonstrated above, scientifically there is absolutely no question whatsoever that the immediate product of fertilization is a newly existing human being. A human zygote is a human being. It is NOT a “potential” or a “possible” human being.

MYTH 4: “A single-cell human zygote, or embryo, or fetus are not human beings, because they do not look like human beings.”

FACT 4: As all human embryologists know, a single-cell human zygote, or a more developed human embryo, or human fetus is a human being - and that that’s the way they are supposed to look at those particular periods of development.

MYTH 5: “The immediate product of fertilization is just an “it” - it is neither a girl nor a boy.”

FACT 5: The immediate product of fertilization is genetically already a girl or a boy - determined by the kind of sperm which fertilizes the oocyte. Quoting Carlson again:

…[T]he sex of the future embryo is determined by the chromosomal complement of the spermatozoon. (If the sperm contains 22 autosomes and 2 X chromosomes, the embryo will be a genetic female, and if it contains 22 autosomes and an X and a Y chromosome, the embryo will be a genetic male.)

MYTH 6: “The embryo and the embryonic period begin at: implantation; 14 days; 3 weeks.”

FACT 6: These are several of the most common myths perpetuated sometimes even within quasi-scientific articles - especially within the bioethics literature. As demonstrated above, the human embryo, who is a human being, begins at fertilization - not at implantation (about 5-7 days), 14-days, or 3 weeks. Thus the embryonic period also begins at fertilization, and ends by the end of the eighth week, when the fetal period begins. Quoting O’Rahilly:

Prenatal life is conveniently divided into two phases: the embryonic and the fetal. The embryonic period proper during which the vast majority of the named structures of the body appear, occupies the first 8 postovulatory weeks. … the fetal period extends from 8 weeks to birth … (emphasis added)

MYTH 7: “The product of fertilization, up to 14-days, is not an embryo; it is just a ‘pre-embryo’ - and therefore it can be used in experimental research, aborted or donated.”

FACT 7: This scientific myth is perhaps the most common error, which pervades the current literature. The term “pre-embryo” has quite a long and interesting history (see Irving and Kischer, The Human Development Hoax: Time To Tell The Truth! for extensive details and references), but it roughly goes back to at least 1979 in the bioethics writings of Jesuit theologian Richard McCormick in his work with the Ethics Advisory Board to the United States Department of Health, Education and Welfare, and those of frog developmental biologist Dr. Clifford Grobstein in a 1979 article in Scientific American, and most notably in his classic book, Science and the Unborn: Choosing Human Futures (1988). Both McCormick and Grobstein subsequently continued propagating this scientific myth as members of the Ethics Committee of the American Fertility Society, and in numerous influential bioethics articles, leading to its common use in bioethics, theological, and public policy literature to this day.

The term “pre-embryo” was also used as the rationale for permitting human embryo research in the British Warnock Committee Report (1984), and then picked up by literally hundreds of writers internationally, including e.g., Australian writers Michael Lockwood, Michael Tooley, Alan Trounson - and especially by Peter Singer (a philosopher), Pascal Kasimba (a lawyer), Helga Kuhse (an ethicist), Stephen Buckle (a philosopher) and Karen Dawson (a geneticist, not a human embryologist). Note that none of these is even a scientist, with the exception of Karen Dawson, who is just a geneticist.

Oddly, their influential book, Embryo Experimentation, (which uses the term “pre-embryo,” and which contains no scientific references for its “human embryology” chart or its list of "scientific terms), along with the work of theologian McCormick and frog developmental biologist Grobstein, was used in the United States as the scientific basis for the 1994 NIH Human Embryo Research Report. That Report concluded that the “preimplantation embryo” (they too originally used the term “pre-embryo”) had only a “reduced moral status.” (Both the Warnock Report and the NIH Report admitted that the 14-day limit for human embryo research was arbitrary, and could and must be changed if necessary). It is particularly in the writings of these and other bioethicists that so much incorrect science is claimed in order to “scientifically” ground the “pre-embryo” myth and therefore “scientifically” justify many of the issues noted at the beginning of this article. This would include abortion, as well as the use of donated or “made-for-research” early human embryo in destructive experimental human embryo research (such as infertility research, cloning, stem cell research, the formation of chimeras, etc.).

To begin with, it has been demonstrated above that the immediate product of fertilization is a human being with 46 chromosomes, a human embryo, an individual member of the human species, and that this is the beginning of the embryonic period. However, McCormick and Grobsteinclaim that even though the product of fertilization is genetically human, it is not a “developmental individual” yet - and in turn, this “scientific fact” grounds their moral claim about this “pre-embryo.” Quoting McCormick:

I contend in this paper that the moral status - and specifically the controversial issue of personhood - is related to the attainment of developmental individuality (being the source of one individual) … It should be noted that at the zygote stage the genetic individual is not yet developmentally single - a source of only one individual. As we will see, that does not occur until a single-body axis has begun to form near the end of the second week post fertilization when implantation is underway. (emphasis added)

Sounds very scientific. However, McCormick’s embryology is already self-contradictory. The “single body axis” to which he refers is the formation of the primitive streak which takes place at 14 days. Implantation takes place at 5-7 days. McCormick often confuses these different periods in his writings. But McCormick continues:

This multicellular entity, called a blastocyst, has an outer cellular wall, a central fluid-filled cavity and a small gathering of cells at one end known as the inner cell mass. Developmental studies show that the cells of the outer wall become the trophoblast (feeding layer) and are precursors to the later placenta. Ultimately, all these cells are discarded at birth. (emphasis added)

The clear implication is that there is absolutely no relationship or interaction between these two cell layers, and so the “entity” is not a “developmental individual” yet. However, quoting Larsen:

These centrally place blastomeres are now called the inner cell mass, while the blastomeres at the periphery constitute the outer cell mass. Some exchange occurs between these groups. … The cells of this germ disc (the inner cell layer) develop into the embryo proper and also contribute to some of the extraembryonic membranes. (emphasis added)

Similarly, it is not factually correct to state that all of the cells from the outer trophoblast layer are discarded after birth. Quoting Moore:

The chorion, the amnion, the yolk sac, and the allantois constitute the fetal membranes. They develop from the zygote but do not participate in the formation of the embryo or fetus - except for parts of the yolk sac and allantois. Part of the yolk sac is incorporated into the embryo as the primordium of the gut. The allantois forms a fibrous cord that is known as the urachus in the fetus and the median umbilical ligament in the adult. It extends from the apex of the urinary bladder to the umbilicus. (emphasis added)

Since scientists, in trying to “reach” young students in a more familiar language, sometimes use popularized (but scientifically inaccurate and misleading) terms themselves, the ever-vigilant O’Rahilly expresses concern in his classic text about the use of the term “fetal membranes”:

The developmental adnexa, commonly but inaccurately referred to as the “fetal membranes,” include the trophoblast, amnion, chorion, umbilical vesicle (yolk sac), allantoic diverticulum, placenta and umbilical cord. They are genetically a part of the individual and are composed of the same germ layers. (emphasis added)

Consequently, it is also scientifically incorrect to claim that only the inner cell layer constitutes the “embryo proper.” The entire blastocyst - including both the inner and the outer cell layers - is the human embryo, the human being.

Finally, McCormick claims that this “pre-embryo” has not yet decided how many individuals it will become, since the cells are totipotent and twinning can still take place. Therefore, they argued, there is no “individual” present until 14-days and the formation of the primitive streak, after which twinning cannot take place.

However, twinning is possible after 14 days, e.g., with fetus-in-fetu and Siamese twins. Quoting from O’Rahilly again:

Partial duplication at an early stage and attempted duplication from 2 weeks onward (when bilaterial symmetry has become manifest) would result in conjoined twins (e.g., “Siamese twins”). (emphasis added)

And even Karen Dawson acknowledges this as scientific fact in her article in Embryo Experimentation:

After the time of primitive streak formation, other events are possible which indicate that the notion of “irreversible individuality” may need some review if it is to be considered as an important criterion in human life coming to be the individual human being it is ever thereafter to be. There are two conditions which raise questions about the adequacy of this notion: conjoined twins, sometimes known as Siamese twins, and fetus-in-fetu. … Conjoined twins arise from the twinning process occurring after the primitive streak has begun to form, that is, beyond 14 days after fertilization, or, in terms of the argument from segmentation, beyond the time at which irreversible individuality is said to exist. … This situation weakens the possibility of seeing individuality as something irreversibly resolved by about 14 days after fertilization. This in turn raises questions about the adequacy of using the landmark of segmentation in development as the determinant of moral status. (emphasis added)

It is unfortunate that the NIH Human Embryo Research Panel did not read this particular portion of the Singer et al book before making their recommendations about the moral status of the early human embryo.

The scientific fact is that there is no such thing as a “pre-embryo” in the real world. The term is a complete myth. It was fabricated out of thin air in order to justify a number of things that ordinarily would not be justifiable. Quoting O’Rahilly, who sits on the international board of Nomina Embryologica, again:

The ill-defined and inaccurate term “pre-embryo,” which includes the embryonic disk, is said either to end with the appearance of the primitive streak or to include neurulation. The term is not used in this book. (emphasis added)

Unfortunately, the convenient but mythological term “pre-embryo” will be used to “scientifically” justify several of the other “scientific myths” to follow, which in turn will justify public policy on abortion and human embryo research world-wide.

MYTH 8: “Pregnancy begins with the implantation of the blastocyst (i.e., about 5-7 days).”

FACT 8: This definition of “pregnancy” was initiated to accommodate the introduction of the process of in vitro fertilization, where fertilization takes place artificially outside the mother in a petri dish, and then the embryo is artificially introduced into the woman’s uterus so that implantation of the embryo can take place. Obviously, if the embryo is not within the woman’s body, she is not “pregnant” in the literal, traditional sense of the term. However, this artificial situation cannot validly be substituted back to redefine “normal pregnancy,” in which fertilization does takes place within the woman’s body in her fallopian tube, and subsequently the embryo itself moves along the tube to implant itself into her uterus. In normal situations, pregnancy begins at fertilization, not at implantation. Quoting Carlson:

Human pregnancy begins with the fusion of an egg and a sperm, but a great deal of preparation precedes this event. First both male and female sex cells must pass through a long series of changes (gametogenesis) that converts them genetically and phenotypically into mature gametes, which are capable of participating in the process of fertilization. Next, the gametes must be released from the gonads and make their way to the upper part of the uterine tube, where fertilization normally takes place. Finally, the fertilized egg, now properly called an embryo, must make its way into the uterus, where it sinks into the uterine lining (implantation) to be nourished by the mother. (emphasis added)

MYTH 9: “The ‘morning-after pill’, RU-486, and the IUD are not abortifacient; they are only methods of contraception.”

FACT 9: The “morning-after pill,” RU-486, and the IUD can be abortifacient, if fertilization has taken place. Then they would act to prevent the implantation of an already existing human embryo - the blastocyst - which is an existing human being. If the developing human blastocyst is prevented from implanting into the uterus, then obviously the embryo dies. In effect, these chemical and mechanical methods of contraception have become methods of abortion as well. Quoting Moore:

The administration of relatively large doses of estrogens (“morning-after pill”) for several days, beginning shortly after unprotected sexual intercourse, usually does not prevent fertilization but often prevents implantation of the blastocyst. Diethylstilbestrol, given daily in high dosage for 5-6 days, may also accelerate passage of the dividing zygote along the uterine tube … Normally, the endometrium progresses to the secretory phase of the menstrual cycle as the zygote forms, undergoes cleavage, and enters the uterus. The large amount of estrogen disturbs the normal balance between estrogen and progesterone that is necessary for preparation of the endometrium for implantation of the blastocyst. Postconception administration of hormones to prevent implantation of the blastocyst is sometimes used in cases of sexual assault or leakage of a condom, but this treatment is contraindicated for routine contraceptive use. The “abortion pill” RU-486 also destroys the conceptus by interrupting implantation because of interference with the hormonal environment of the implanting embryo. … An intrauterine device (IUD) inserted into the uterus through the vagina and cervix usually interferes with implantation by causing a local inflammatory reaction. Some IUDs contain progesterone that is slowly released and interferes with the development of the endometrium so that implantation does not usually occur. (emphasis added)

And since the whole human blastocyst is the embryonic human being - not just the inner cell layer - the use of chemical abortifacients that act “only” on the outer trophoblast layer of the blastocyst, e.g., methotrexate, would be abortifacient as well.

MYTH 10: “Human embryo research, human cloning, stem cell research, and the formation of chimeras are acceptable kinds of research because until implantation or 14 days there is only a ‘pre-embryo’, a ‘potential’ human embryo or human being present. A real human embryo and a human being (child) do not actually begin unless and until the ‘pre-embryo’ is implanted into the mother’s uterus.”

FACT 10: These claims are currently being made by bioethicists, research scientists, pharmaceutical companies and other biotech research companies - even by some members of Congress. However, they too are “scientific myths.”

Scientifically it is perfectly clear that there is no such thing as a “pre-embryo,” as demonstrated in Fact 7. As demonstrated in the background material, the immediate product of fertilization is a human being, a human embryo, a human child - the zygote. This zygote is a newly existing, genetically unique, genetically male or female, individual human being - it is not a “potential” or a “possible” human being. And this developing human being is a human being, a human embryo, a human child whether or not it is implanted artificially into the womb of the mother.

Fertilization and cloning are different processes, but the immediate products of these processes are the same. The immediate product of cloning is also a human being - just as in fertilization. It is not a “pre-embryo” or a “potential” human embryo or human being. Stem cell research obtains its “stem cells” by essentially exploding or otherwise destroying and killing a newly existing human blastocyst who is, scientifically, an existing human being. The formation of chimeras, i.e., the fertilization of a gamete of one species (e.g., a human ovum) with the gamete of another species (e.g., a monkey sperm) also results in an embryo which is “half-human.” All of these types of research have been banned by most countries in the world. And all of these types of research are essentially human embryo research - banned in the United States by Congress if federal funds are used.

MYTH 11: “Certain early stages of the developing human embryo and fetus, e.g., during the formation of ancestral fish gills or tails, demonstrates that it is not yet a human being, but is only in the process of becoming one. It is simply “recapitulating” the historical evolution of all of the species.”

FACT 11: This “scientific myth” is yet another version of the “potential,” “possible,” “pre-embryo” myths. It is an attempt to deny the early human embryo its real identity as a human being and its real existence. But quoting once again from O’Rahilly:

The theory that successive stages of individual development (ontogeny) correspond with (“recapitulate”) successive adult ancestors in the line of evolutionary descent (phylogeny) became popular in the 19th century as the so-called biogenetic law. This theory of recapitulation, however, has had a “regrettable influence in the progress of embryology” (citing de Beer). … Furthermore, during its development an animal departs more and more from the form of other animals. Indeed, the early stages in the development of an animal are not like the adult stages of other forms, but resemble only the early stages of those animals.

Hence, the developing human embryo or fetus is not a fish or a frog, but is categorically a human being - as has been already demonstrated.

MYTH 12: “Maybe a human being begins at fertilization, but a human person does not begin until after 14-days, when twinning cannot take place.”

FACT 12: The question as to when a human person begins is a philosophical question - not a scientific question. I will not go into great detail here, but since many of the current popular “personhood” claims in bioethics are also based on mythological science, it would be useful to just look very briefly at these philosophical (or sometimes, theological) arguments for scientific accuracy as well.

Philosophically, virtually any claim for so-called “delayed personhood” involves the theoretical disaster of accepting that the idea or concept of a mind/body split has any correlate or reflects the real world. Historically this problem was simply the consequence of wrong-headed thinking about reality, and was/is totally indefensible. It was abandoned with great embarrassment after Plato (even by Plato himself in his Parmenides!), but unfortunately resurfaces from time to time, e.g., as with Descartes in his Meditations, and now again with contemporary bioethics. And as in the question of when a human being begins, if the science used to ground these philosophical “personhood” arguments is incorrect, the conclusions of those arguments (which are based on that science) are also incorrect and invalid.

The particular argument in Myth 12 is also made by McCormick and Grobstein (and their numerous followers). It is based on their biological claim that the “pre-embryo” is not a developmental individual, and therefore not a person, until after 14 days when twinning can no longer take place. However, it has already been scientifically demonstrated here that there is no such thing as a “pre-embryo,” and that in fact the embryo begins as a “developmental individual” at fertilization. Furthermore, twinning can take place after 14 days. Thus, simply on the level of science, the philosophical claim of “personhood” advanced by these bioethicists is invalid and indefensible.

MYTH 13: “A human person begins with ‘brain birth’, the formation of the primitive nerve net, or the formation of the cortex - all physiological structures necessary to support thinking and feeling.”

FACT 13: Such claims are all pure mental speculation, the product of imposing philosophical (or theological) concepts on the scientific data, and have no scientific evidence to back them up. As the well-known neurological researcher D. Gareth Jones has succinctly put it, the parallelism between brain death and brain birth is scientifically invalid. Brain death is the gradual or rapid cessation of the functions of a brain. Brain birth is the very gradual acquisition of the functions of a developing neural system. This developing neural system is not a brain. He questions, in fact, the entire assumption and asks what neurological reasons there might be for concluding that an incapacity for consciousness becomes a capacity for consciousness once this point is passed. Jones continues that the alleged symmetry is not as strong as is sometimes assumed, and that it has yet to provided with a firm biological base.

MYTH 14: “A ‘person’ is defined in terms of the active exercising of ‘rational attributes’ (e.g., thinking, willing, choosing, self-consciousness, relating to the world around one, etc.), and/or the active exercising of ‘sentience’ (e.g., the feeling of pain and pleasure).”

FACT 14: Again, these are philosophical terms or concepts, which have been illegitimately imposed on the scientific data. The scientific fact is that the brain, which is supposed to be the physiological support for both “rational attributes” and “sentience,” is not actually completely developed until young adulthood. Quoting Moore:

Although it is customary to divide human development into prenatal (before birth) and postnatal (after birth) periods, birth is merely a dramatic event during development resulting in a change in environment. Development does not stop at birth. Important changes, in addition to growth, occur after birth (e.g., development of teeth and female breasts). The brain triples in weight between birth and 16 years; most developmental changes are completed by the age of 25. (emphasis added)

One should also consider simply the logical - and very real - consequences if a “person” is defined only in terms of the actual exercising of “rational attributes” or of “sentience.” What would this mean for the following list of adult human beings with diminished “rational attributes”: the mentally ill, the mentally retarded, the depressed elderly, Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s patients, drug addicts, alcoholics - and for those with diminished “sentience,” e.g., the comatose, patients in a “vegetative state,” paraplegics and other paralyzed and disabled patients, diabetics or other patients with nerve or brain damage, etc.? Would they then be considered as only human beings but not also as human persons? Would that mean that they would not have the same ethical rights and protections as those adult human beings who are considered as persons? Is there really such a “split” between a human being and a human person?

In fact, this is the position of bioethics writers such as the Australian animal rights philosopher Peter Singer, the recently appointed Director of the Center for Human Values at Princeton University. Singer argues that the higher primates, e.g., dogs, pigs, apes, monkeys, are persons - but that some human beings, e.g., even normal human infants, and disabled human adults, are not persons. Fellow bioethicist Norman Fost actually considers “cognitively impaired” adult human beings as “brain dead.” Philosopher/bioethicist R.G. Frey has also published that many of the adult human beings on the above list are not “persons,” and suggests that they be substituted for the higher primates who are “persons” in purely destructive experimental research. The list goes on.

IV. Conclusions:

Ideas do have concrete consequences - not only in one’s personal life, but also in the formulation of public policies. And once a definition is accepted in one public policy, the logical extensions of it can then be applied, invalidly, in many other policies, even if they are not dealing with the same exact issue - as happens frequently in bioethics. Thus, the definitions of “human being” and of “person” which have been concretized in the abortion debates have been transferred to several other areas, e.g., human embryo research, cloning, stem cell research, the formation of chimeras, the use of abortifacients - even the issues of brain death, brain birth, organ transplantation, the removal of food and hydration, and research with the mentally ill or the disabled. But both private choices and public policies should incorporate sound and accurate science whenever possible. What I have tried to indicate is that in these current discussions, individual choices and public policies have been based on “scientific myth,” rather than on objective scientific facts.

http://www.all.org/abac/dni003.htm

[quote]kamui wrote:

[quote]
Just so you know, I pointed out that a zygote, while it is alive and has the genetic make-up of a human being, is not a human being for the very simple reason that it is not a human being. Zygotes are naturally aborted at least 20% of the time (this number may be much, much higher), they are not people anymore than an egg is a chicken. If you look at a zygote you cannot even tell if it is a human a chimp or a puppy they look the same, they cannot feel pain, they have one cell at formation etc. The life begins at conception argument is silly, a sperm is human life, so is an egg, a human life and a human being aren’t the same.[/quote]

sperm is not human life. It is not an organism.

And a fertilized chicken egg IS a chicken.

btw, your argument shifted from “a zygote is not an human being” to “a zygote is not a person”

the first argument is absurd. I already shown why.
the latter one is arguably better, but it is extremely dangerous.

The implied proposiion is that “personhood” is the basis of ethical and legal rights.
But it’s not the case, and it can’t be the case.
There is no way to deny the personhood of a zygote without denying the personhood of other people at the same time.
Disabled people, people in deep coma, sleeping people, women, senile people, anaesthesied people, inebriated people, young children, people suffering from psychosis, etc. All these people will (permanently or temporarily) NOT fit the criteria of “personhood”.
Is it ok to kill them ?[/quote]

Heaven Almighty! (did ya like that, you athiest you :wink: ) kamui you have much more patience than I do in explaining the differences in his stated arguments. I would be flat out mortified to have posted such a juvenile argument as “a zygote is not a human being because I zygote is not a human being” to anyone in public. And that goes for any topic not just this one.

I will say that I very much respect your incisive reasoning skills. I don’t always agree with you but I really, really enjoy reading your posts. They are always well informed and closely reasoned.

For the record I agree with you concerning the dangers of the “personhood as basis for law” argument. Especially considering how ill-defined “person” is in philosophicsl circles.

[quote]storey420 wrote:
kamui wrote:

[quote]

The implied proposiion is that “personhood” is the basis of ethical and legal rights.
But it’s not the case, and it can’t be the case.
There is no way to deny the personhood of a zygote without denying the personhood of other people at the same time.
Disabled people, people in deep coma, sleeping people, women, senile people, anaesthesied people, inebriated people, young children, people suffering from psychosis, etc. All these people will (permanently or temporarily) NOT fit the criteria of “personhood”.
Is it ok to kill them ?[/quote]

You had me up till this. This proposition is just fucking stupid. I hope the others on this side of the fence dont feel the same way. Really? Trying to compare a drunk person with a zygote as far as rights of personhood? Yeah, while we’re at it let’s allow zygotes to run for office.[/quote]

I understand your reaction to that supposition, but as uncomfortable as this notion is, you should accept the ramifications of it, because it is valid based on the premises. In fact, noted philosopher Peter Singer has stated as much (among others who have taken similar views) and he is pro-choice. I completely despise his philosophy, but must give him due credit in following the logical underpinnings of his position to their logical end.

I was recently told that access to abortion was safer for people. What happens when the government forces you to have an abortion, against your will?

Report: Chinese woman forcibly aborted at seven months (warning: extremely graphic)
by John Jalsevac Tue Jun 12, 2012

June 12, 2012 (LifeSiteNews.com) - According to the China-based human rights organization 64Tianwang, a Chinese woman was forcibly aborted at seven months of pregnancy on June 3, 2012. 64Tiangwangâ??s report was accompanied by a graphic photograph of the alleged victim of the abortion on a hospital bed, with her dead child next to her.

The human rights group claims the woman, Feng Jianmei, was beaten and dragged into a vehicle by a group of Family Planning Officials while her husband, Deng Jiyuan, was out working.

The officials asked for RMB 40,000 in fines from Feng Jianmei’s family. When they did not receive the money, the officials forcibly aborted Feng at seven months, laying the body of her aborted baby next to her in the bed.

64Tiangwang said Feng is under medical treatment in Ankang City, Zhenpin County, Zengjia Town, Yupin village.

“This is an outrage,” said Reggie Littlejohn, president of Women’s Rights Without Frontiers. “No legitimate government would commit or tolerate such an act. Those who are responsible should be prosecuted for crimes against humanity. WRWF calls on the United States government and the leaders of the free world to strongly condemn forced abortion and all coercive family planning in China.”

While the report has not been independently verified, 64Tiangwangâ??s claims are consistent with numerous other reports coming out of China about the brutal methods the country uses to enforce its one-child policy.

Another Chinese woman, Cao Ruyi, currently stands in danger of a forced abortion in Hunan province. After news of her story broke in Western media this week, Cao Ruyi has been released from hospital, but family planning officials are reportedly demanding an additional payment of US $25,000 for Cao to continue her pregnancy, on top of the $1500 already paid.

[quote]storey420 wrote:
kamui wrote:

[quote]

The implied proposiion is that “personhood” is the basis of ethical and legal rights.
But it’s not the case, and it can’t be the case.
There is no way to deny the personhood of a zygote without denying the personhood of other people at the same time.
Disabled people, people in deep coma, sleeping people, women, senile people, anaesthesied people, inebriated people, young children, people suffering from psychosis, etc. All these people will (permanently or temporarily) NOT fit the criteria of “personhood”.
Is it ok to kill them ?[/quote]

You had me up till this. This proposition is just fucking stupid. I hope the others on this side of the fence dont feel the same way. Really? Trying to compare a drunk person with a zygote as far as rights of personhood? Yeah, while we’re at it let’s allow zygotes to run for office.[/quote]

When you jump in the middle of shit, you have to accept you missed something. The point was made that ‘consciousness’ defines when the ‘thing’ acquires person-hood. Since that is so subjective, in the first place it is prudent to point out other instances where a person is not conscious. What Kamui illustrates is the absurdity of attaching human life to consciousness.

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
Pat,kamui,

the church changed their position in 1869, far from the middle ages.

a zygote is alive, it is life, it is not a human being

it is not a person unless a new definition of that word has sprung up. a zygote lacks organs, sensation, thought, the ability to demonstrate any sentience at all.
[/quote]
My dog has organs and it is not a human, so that point falls flat on it’s face. Organs don’t define humanity. My dog has sensation, yet not a human. My dog thinks, still not human. My dog is sentient, yet still not human. So we see, therefore, that organs, thought, sentience or sensation don’t define humanity at all. For if that were true, then all mammals, most reptiles, and various collection of whatever animals exist, has these things and yet are not human.
So, you fail. What separates, the animal kingdom from humanity? DNA, not organs, consciousness,or sensation.

What is it, a lizard?

It is not. It’s convenient for you to deny person hood to a small human being because if you get into a jam, you can kill it and feel good about yourself. But the truth of the matter is that sperm and egg may be precursors, but once they meet, and fertilization takes place, it’s a human life. And there isn’t any amount of wishful thinking that will make something it is not.

You’re argument for precursor, is ridiculous at best. There is not a shred of evidence anywhere in the world that backs up the ‘precursor’ theory. None, zippo, zilch, nada.

When you kill your little zygote, know you’ve killed your child. Own it, because that’s the truth.

Pat,

I am not sure where your dog comes into this argument.
I don’t think the zygote is a lizard, I think it is a zygote made up of DNA and an egg and sperm.
I know this is difficult to accept, but the fact is that the lack of personhood has already been determined for zygotes. The law supports the belief that a zygote is not a human being, just human tissue, mother nature supports this as well, by eliminating at least 1 in 5 zygotes and early term pregnancies.
You say it is a person I say it is not, the law agrees with me, you may want to question the strength of your evidence. And just so you know, my wife and I are not in favor of abortion, but a bad argument (the one you guys have chosen) will never get the laws changed.

Aragorn,

the “I said it is a zygote not a person argument” is just the reverse of what the pro-life people say, maybe they should be embarrassed to post that nonsense over and over (you as well I can only assume). The science does not argue that a zygote is a person, or that a zygote has a personality, or that it can feel, think, experience any sensation at all, explain to me how that is a human being again? When people argue that “science says a zygote is human life” they are correct, the rest though, regarding how it is a unique individual is more of an ad lib. The facts are simple a zygote can become a human being, but there are no guarantees beyond that. Saying life begins at conception is true in the most basic sense of the concept, a zygote is a life, just not a person. Additionally Kamuis’ argument is so off base I don’t know where to start, backing that horse is a bad idea. Drunks, the disabled, people with Alzheimers, young children, folks with psychosis are not, nor will they be, stripped of their personhood (until they die I mean). They all experience pain, they can express some level of self awareness, they can often communicate, they think, they dream, they have developed and they are out of the womb, the argument seems to imply that clarity of thought is as important as presence of thought, it is not.

Kneedragger,

We live in the US not China.
It is usually best to use a site that is not clearly a right to life site as your main argument. I could link to a pro-choice website that would have experts arguing the exact opposite, you would probably call them “evil baby killers”.
And yes I used a right to life site in my argument, but it’s okay because I am arguing the other side, I was just using it for data.

Myth 4

[quote]storey420 wrote:
You had me up till this. This proposition is just fucking stupid. I hope the others on this side of the fence dont feel the same way. Really? Trying to compare a drunk person with a zygote as far as rights of personhood? Yeah, while we’re at it let’s allow zygotes to run for office.[/quote]