The 3rd Law of Muscle

Nutrition
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[quote]Mod Brian wrote:

[quote]decapsk8 wrote:
Correct me if I’m wrong but, didn’t the old stuff require 2 servings for 20oz? Now the new stuff is 1 serving for 20oz. So technically the old stuff had 15 servings if you are using 20oz for a 1 hour (if using it as recommended). So in a sense there are 9 more servings (for just 9 more dollars when ordering 2) with more MAG-10 (witch is pretty sweet btw) in the new stuff compared to the old (Witch is where the 44% more comes from I’m assuming).

Am I confusing anyone, I know I’m confused lol.

I’m not positive on this as I don’t have an old bottle. So, like I said correct me if I’m wrong.[/quote]

It doesn’t make sense to compare servings based on the amount of fluid recommend since you can easily alter the concentration with new formula without affecting its taste.[/quote]

To me it makes sense to compare servings based on recommended concentrations due to the amounts of the key ingredients lining up when you compare this way. I know you can alter the concentration of the new formula, but as per recommended dosages, 2 scoops of old = 2 scoops of new = 20 oz of water recommended for both).

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Kind of pointless to compare a new proprietary formula to a discontinued one isn’t it guys?

I mean I too compared the price, servings, and protein, but it ended there. And I kept the scientific calculator and #2 pencil unused.

It’s obviously cheaper, but if you’re at the point of crying about sugar grams added and oz of water ratios, then I think you’ve reached what CT describes as ‘Paralysis by Analysis’.

You’re not formulators in a lab, and I don’t think Biotest is looking to hire either.

Here’s a flowchart I made to help make the purchasing decision easier.

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I can’t wait to try this shit. I wish they would write the new description. Probably be a few weeks before I spend the cash.

I think this looks better than the FINiBARs for peri-w/o carbs
I think the FINiBARs have too much whey and milk protein
What is up with this isomaltulose shit i keep seeing

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[quote]StylinNProfilin wrote:
Kind of pointless to compare a new proprietary formula to a discontinued one isn’t it guys?

I mean I too compared the price, servings, and protein, but it ended there. And I kept the scientific calculator and #2 pencil unused.

It’s obviously cheaper, but if you’re at the point of crying about sugar grams added and oz of water ratios, then I think you’ve reached what CT describes as ‘Paralysis by Analysis’.

You’re not formulators in a lab, and I don’t think Biotest is looking to hire either.

Here’s a flowchart I made to help make the purchasing decision easier.
[/quote]
HaHa! That is an awesome flowchart. Well done sir.

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Whole lotta whining going on here.

Seems to me that if you purchase SWF and MAG-10 you can get yourself a “poor mans” Anaconda protocol. Maybe add 1 FINiBAR to up the calories. So:

  • 30 1 FINiBAR (if you can really stop at 1)
  • 5 Down Surge Workout Fuel (2 scoops)
    During workout sip MAG-10 (2-3 scoops)

Experiment.

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[quote]decapsk8 wrote:
My only point was: cheaper per serving + more of the good stuff = awesome for consumers.
[/quote]

This should be the take-home message.

Nothing major has changed. There were just some subtle tweaks based off what works better for the elite athletes who’ve been using it.

In my opinion, the biggest change is the use of Biotest Intensified Liquid Flavoring, which not only improves its taste, but also makes the product much more flexible in terms of altering concentrations independently of flavor and sweetness. And, now it can be more easily mixed with MAG-10 and Anaconda.

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[quote]toots27mkc wrote:
I think this looks better than the FINiBARs for peri-w/o carbs
I think the FINiBARs have too much whey and milk protein
What is up with this isomaltulose shit i keep seeing[/quote]

I don’t know what you’re basing this on, but the staff and athletes with whom we work with that have access to all products continue to use FINiBAR and Surge Workout Fuel because we’ve found the combination to work best.

Try to take FINiBAR away from Christian or Kevin and you might lose your hand.

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[quote]steelechris wrote:

[quote]decapsk8 wrote:

[quote]gabex wrote:
Compare old to new

1 scoop = 30 servings for $33 (when buying 2)

2 scoops = 24 servings for $42 (when buying 2)
[/quote]
Correct me if I’m wrong but, didn’t the old stuff require 2 servings for 20oz? Now the new stuff is 1 serving for 20oz. So technically the old stuff had 15 servings if you are using 20oz for a 1 hour (if using it as recommended). So in a sense there are 9 more servings (for just 9 more dollars when ordering 2) with more MAG-10 (witch is pretty sweet btw) in the new stuff compared to the old (Witch is where the 44% more comes from I’m assuming).

Am I confusing anyone, I know I’m confused lol.

I’m not positive on this as I don’t have an old bottle. So, like I said correct me if I’m wrong.[/quote]

For sake of the discussion let me put my 2 cents in. The new formula skips the step of assuming we are using 2 servings and just bases the nutrition facts off two scoops.

Old Formula: ($33 when buying 2 w/ 15 recommended servings = $2.20 per workout)

2 scoops for 20 oz is recommended so 2 scoops = 1 “serving”, at least accurate comparison
2 scoops = 170 calories, 42 carb (26 sugars), and 14.4 grams of MAG-10 amino primer

New Formula: ($42 when buying multiples w 24 recommended servings = $1.75 per workout)

Serving size has been adjusted for dosage, so 2 scoops = 1 serving now
2 scoops = 280 calories, 64 carbs (39 sugars), and 13 grams of MAG-10 amino primer

I’m kind of disappointed that the sugars went up and that the MAG-10 actually went down per serving (1.4 grams), but at $0.45 cheaper per workout its hard to question (on a per scoop basis this is a savings of $0.225 or about a 20% savings overall). The super hydration catalyst in both formulas is the same w/ 1.42 grams so no change there.

I do have a quick question is someone could help me out, the “quick-sustainable energy” portion has been replaced with the “hyperosmotic glycogen load” but the only difference is substituting the Palatinose with Isomaltulose. What is the difference here or are they accomplishing the same task?

Also if I’m wrong on anything let me know, I’m basing all my calculations off of the bottle sitting in front of me and the nutrition facts for the new formula along with the recommended dosages, but I could be off base somewhere.

Did you guys plan this around tax refund time?
[/quote]

Just to defend stuff like this. This is awesome that he broke this down. Even though i had broken down personally a cost-per-work for both types, it is nice to see the detail, and see how that works out to savings. thanks alot man.

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[quote]gabex wrote:

[quote]Quicksilver0587 wrote:

[quote]gabex wrote:
Compare old to new

1 scoop = 30 servings for $33 (when buying 2)
85 calories
21g carbs
13g sugar
120g vit c
7.2g mag10 amino primer
$1.10/scoop

2 scoops = 24 servings for $42 (when buying 2)
280 calories
64g carbs
0g sugar
0g vit c
13g mag10 amino primer
$0.88/scoop
[/quote]

$33/30 servings = $1.10/serving
$42/24 servings = $1.75/serving

Dimensional analysis rocks.[/quote]

I was trying to make the point that I don’t understand why there isn’t the same amount of MAG-10 Amino Primer in 2 scoops of the new SWF as there is in the old SWF… and now there are more carbs in SWF… with the old formula, if I wanted extra carbs, I’d eat another 1/2 FINiBAR or whatever… now, I guess I don’t have to, but I’m getting 1.2g less of the MAG-10 Amino Primer…
[/quote]

I don’t presume to speak for anyone, but it would seem to me that Biotest probably noticed that more carbs (and whatever other new ingredients are in there) worked better, and wanted to adjust the new formula to include them, but in the interest of keeping the price down, cut out a gram of aminos per serving (possibly among other things). Doesn’t mean this new formula is “worse,” that’s just the definition of tweaking the formula to maximize the potency to price ratio.

I could be wrong, of course, but what’s the long term difference from 1.2g less of aminos per workout over the long haul? I’m sure whatever modicum of difference that might make is overshadowed by the improvements to the formula, hence the reformulation.

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[quote]ChrisPowers wrote:
I don’t presume to speak for anyone, but it would seem to me that Biotest probably noticed that more carbs (and whatever other new ingredients are in there) worked better, and wanted to adjust the new formula to include them, but in the interest of keeping the price down, cut out a gram of aminos per serving (possibly among other things). Doesn’t mean this new formula is “worse,” that’s just the definition of tweaking the formula to maximize the potency to price ratio.[/quote]

In my experience, there is no negative with the new formula. I have bottles of both sitting in my kitchen and I plan to give what’s left of the original formula to a training partner.

Besides, the changes were made to improve the performance of athletes like GSP who train for hours most every day, and I know that Tim is committed to doing everything he can to make Biotest products work better for these people.

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When taking Surge WOF should i still take a post-workout protein shake like Grow! right after the gym or just wait an hour or two and eat a real meal?

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[quote]Xalor03 wrote:
When taking Surge WOF should i still take a post-workout protein shake like Grow! right after the gym or just wait an hour or two and eat a real meal?[/quote]

This depends on the type of training you’re doing and the nutritional strategy you’re following, but in general I prefer and recommend a protein drink after training.

I’m currently using MAG-10, but Grow! is a good choice for those on a tighter budget.

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[quote]Mod Brian wrote:

[quote]ChrisPowers wrote:
I don’t presume to speak for anyone, but it would seem to me that Biotest probably noticed that more carbs (and whatever other new ingredients are in there) worked better, and wanted to adjust the new formula to include them, but in the interest of keeping the price down, cut out a gram of aminos per serving (possibly among other things). Doesn’t mean this new formula is “worse,” that’s just the definition of tweaking the formula to maximize the potency to price ratio.[/quote]

In my experience, there is no negative with the new formula. I have bottles of both sitting in my kitchen and I plan to give what’s left of the original formula to a training partner.

Besides, the changes were made to improve the performance of athletes like GSP who train for hours most every day, and I know that Tim is committed to doing everything he can to make Biotest products work better for these people. [/quote]

Well, that was just my point. I would expect the new formula to work better, but certainly the absence of a gram of aminos isn’t going to improve efficacy. I just think the poster to whom I was responding is applying too much weight to the amino acid count; there’s more to the formula than just that. But even if that 1g difference is detrimental, I would expect the new formula to make up for that in other ways (otherwise, why reformulate in the first place?).

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Its finally here!!

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[quote]ChrisPowers wrote:
Well, that was just my point. [/quote]

I know, I was agreeing with you.

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What is isomaltulose?

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So, is Surge Recovery going to be reworked, too? Besides TRIBEX and Grow!, I think it’s the oldest supplement Biotest sells and it’s still in it’s original form, other than additional flavors.

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awesome, i’ve got one coming I think. Belated gifts… 64 grams of carbs. Currently I’m doing a fat loss routine and use SR pretty much as all the carbs I get that day if I am training so would using this once the recovery runs out and the training intesifies be a good plan of action?

I think Biotest should put together another article about the stacks of supps and what’s been shown to work i.e. a cheaper Anaconda/ peri-workout protocol and what would be the most efficient for ones different goals… I also got 1 tub of Anaconda but I’m thinking this would be a waste in a fatloss phase. I’ll probably save this for the time being (it’s sooooo hard) and maybe when the weight comes off just do a stint with SWF and Anaconda… what to add? what to take away?

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[quote]Mod Brian wrote:

[quote]ChrisPowers wrote:
Well, that was just my point. [/quote]

I know, I was agreeing with you.[/quote]

I disagree that we were agreeing.

Kidding.

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I second the suggestion on an article dedicated to the different supps and stacks that cah be used together for specific goals such as lean muscle gain, fat loss, conditioning, etc… I think it would be a very beneficial article for many of us.