Thank God, Finally

[thunderbolt23]

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

The fact is, this nation is not a nation of secret military prisons. If you’re giving child molesters and mass murderers trials, then apparently the brutality of the crime has nothing to do with whether or not there’s a trial.

I don’t “Put myself in a terrorists shoes”. But if you’re going to execute these people for crimes against humanity, then have a trial and execute them. If you have nothing on them, then let them the fuck go.

This is not a country that should have soldiers kicking down doors in foreign nations and putting black bags over their heads, and certainly not one that imprisons them for years without trials.

That Americans defend this is amazing to me.[/quote]

You can’t wrap your head around the difference between criminal procedure in civil society and a theater of war. They aren’t the same - and if Leftists are pushed, they have to admit it.

Here is the thing: you have an objection. But that is it. You don’t have an alternative. You think it is enough to disapprove or be offended by the nature of Gitmo - well, fabulous, but what do you recommend as a substitution?

The Left has no idea, just as they have no good answers to the problems I mentioned above with “criminal procedure” in a theater of war. As usual, the Left tries to operate in a world of good and bad choices, even as reality provides only bad ones and worse ones.

And your tangent about the brutality determining whether there is a trial or not is a non-starter - whether or not someone is afforded a trial is a matter of whether or not they have rights under law.

I’m all ears on bona fide alternatives to Gitmo - but in between the bookends of outrage and speechifying, there is only a curious silence when the question is raised.

[thunderbolt23]

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Anyone who condones government intervention in any way, shape, or form might as well be both a murderer and a thief.[/quote]

Get back to the sandbox, the adults are trying to have a conversation. Go practice getting your shoes on the correct feet - that’ll be a better use of your time.

[John_S1]

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

I’m all ears on bona fide alternatives to Gitmo - but in between the bookends of outrage and speechifying, there is only a curious silence when the question is raised.[/quote]

Gitmo was the best option. They will have to be moved to another place and people will ride Obama’s cock saying its not the same thing.

Letting terrorist go is about as stupid as you can get. If anyone thinks that this is the right idea I pity you.

[Headhunter]

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Yes, thank goodness we are in the process of closing Gitmo - all we have to do now is figure out how criminal procedure works in the hills of Afghanistan when irregulars are shooting at our soldiers.

Do soldiers have to “knock and announce” before entering a cave?

Do they have to read Miranda rights to irregulars they swarm?

What kind of evidence is used at their non-Gitmo trial? to sustain habeas corpus challenges?

What do we do with the current inmates?

After the sentimentalism of “closing Gitmo” subsides, we face hard choices, and our options might be worse than keeping Gitmo open. Just don’t tell the Hope and Change crowd - who get sleepy and start rubbing their eyes when the hard questions come out.[/quote]

Wait until one of these guys helps hit a target here, like the Sears tower (62 of these guys are back to doing terror).

[orion]

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
Yes, thank goodness we are in the process of closing Gitmo - all we have to do now is figure out how criminal procedure works in the hills of Afghanistan when irregulars are shooting at our soldiers.

Do soldiers have to “knock and announce” before entering a cave?

Do they have to read Miranda rights to irregulars they swarm?

What kind of evidence is used at their non-Gitmo trial? to sustain habeas corpus challenges?

What do we do with the current inmates?

After the sentimentalism of “closing Gitmo” subsides, we face hard choices, and our options might be worse than keeping Gitmo open. Just don’t tell the Hope and Change crowd - who get sleepy and start rubbing their eyes when the hard questions come out.

Wait until one of these guys helps hit a target here, like the Sears tower (62 of these guys are back to doing terror).

[/quote]

And where is the rest of the several hundreds?

[Mikeyali]

[quote]JD430 wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
Yes, thank goodness we are in the process of closing Gitmo - all we have to do now is figure out how criminal procedure works in the hills of Afghanistan when irregulars are shooting at our soldiers.

Do soldiers have to “knock and announce” before entering a cave?

Do they have to read Miranda rights to irregulars they swarm?

What kind of evidence is used at their non-Gitmo trial? to sustain habeas corpus challenges?

What do we do with the current inmates?

After the sentimentalism of “closing Gitmo” subsides, we face hard choices, and our options might be worse than keeping Gitmo open. Just don’t tell the Hope and Change crowd - who get sleepy and start rubbing their eyes when the hard questions come out.

Well said.

The Gitmo issue was always nonsense and “sentimentalism” as Thunder put it. I believe it stems from an absolute and total lack of understanding of the nature of the threat. In my experience, the urgency to close Gitmo is part of a larger set of beliefs about the radical Islamic terrorist that are completely false. Specifically, I am referring to perceptions like the jihadist’s grievances stem from Western imperialism and there exists some pathway of diplomacy that will lead to us sitting down with them at a table and working all of this out. That is a Disneyland view of the problem, at least when we are talking about the type of people that Gitmo houses.

Nobody is quite sure what to do with these people. There is in fact some guidance about the handling of these maniacs in US history(look up the Nazi spies captured in the US during WW2).

Seriously study the enemy and spend some time with someone who has fought against them(I have). I think you may reach the same conclusions that I have. A military prison on a far away island, surrounded by Marines, mines and sharks is exactly where they belong. If you are using empathy to put yourself in the terrorists shoes, as I suspect many left-leaning folks do, stop now. You are very, very different than they are. Don’t take my word for it. Read “Terror at Beslan”, complete with the rape and random shooting of 6 year olds, and your perceptions will be changed forever.

Our own sentimental weakness will be our undoing.
[/quote]

Well said. But let’s be honest with ourselves. There are a few truths that I’ve based a lot of my belief regarding all this on. The first that is we were attacked on 9/11 due to our having military bases in the ME, not because “they hate us because we’re free”. We can acknowledge their grievences and still tell them to piss off. If we have a base there it’s because we were invited. AQ getting pissed over it and attacking us is akin to some Neo-nazi group here in the US attacking Israel because we asked some jews to come over to teach Krav Maga classes.

The second truth is that the do hate us for our freedom. However, that just means that if they ever got around to getting their shit together at home THEN they might be a threat to us.

Either way we’re the big kid on the block and it’s our duty to step in against pissant tyrants and thugs the world over when the rest of the world turns their back. People may call it imperialism; I call it taking a stand for freedom.

mike

[Mikeyali]

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
JD430 wrote:
Our own sentimental weakness will be our undoing.

I agree, and often wonder if the US is losing it’s stomach for battle.

[/quote]

I thought we’d figured that out in Somalia.

mike

[Sloth]

As for stomach of the US. To truly battle islamists and their enablers? No, we don’t have the stomach. They’d eat us for breakfast. They’d tie this country in knots and watch us destroy ourselves. Human shields own the west.

[LIFTICVSMAXIMVS]

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Anyone who condones government intervention in any way, shape, or form might as well be both a murderer and a thief.

Get back to the sandbox, the adults are trying to have a conversation. Go practice getting your shoes on the correct feet - that’ll be a better use of your time.

[/quote]

hippies don’t wear shoes asshole.

[lixy]

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
If we have a base there it’s because we were invited. [/quote]

That’s a weird way of putting it considering the crushing majority of the people over there oppose the presence of American bases.

You may not know it, but many colonial powers used the exact same rationale. Morocco, for example, was put under French rule following an “invitation” by Sultan Abdelhafid.

[thunderbolt23]

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

hippies don’t wear shoes asshole.[/quote]

Hippies aren’t anti-state - let me guess, you have changed your mind again?

[JD430]

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

Save your book recommendations. That people do terrible things is not a revelation, nor has it anything to do with what country they come from.

Americans committed various atrocities and slaughters during the Indian Wars including the killing of women and children. Hell, we even massacred are own at Fort Pillow, but no one put Forrest in jail, or any of the generals from the Indian Wars. Hell, they got promoted.

That Americans defend this is amazing to me.[/quote]

I have no intention of getting in a pissing contest. Let me suffice it to say that your angst/bravado thing is really unfortunate when applied to this issue. Dismissing a book out of hand like that, especially one so important to an understanding of the topic, shows everyone clearly the root of the problem…refusing to educate oneself for fear it may lead to an idealogical conflict.

Also, pointing out ancient American wrong doings is another trick used all too often to cloud the discussion.

I will say it once more. The Islamic terrorist is a unique threat from a culture that westerners cannot wrap their minds around fully. Show me any culture on a large scale that teaches their children that someone with different beliefs (infidels) are cattle and can be butchered just as easily. That thinking does not exist outside of radical Islam, at least not on any large scale.

I struggled with this myself as I believe deeply in the constitution. After a good deal of study and training involving the terrorist threat, I now see the folly of trying to apply the same standards to someone who knocks off a 7-11 to an AQ thug. In fact, the most virulent and vicious of them have separated themselves so much from the family of man that I think very little of
our concept of civil rights applies to them. This does not even address the fact that AQ views the insistance of some Americans that they have civil due process rights as a tactical advantage.

There is also the issue of effective prosecution to the standards of us civilian criminal courts. This is not an issue that is fully understood by a lot of people screaming for due process for terrorists. I have seen relatively straight forward homicide cases take up boxes upon boxes with phone book sized police reports. That kind of thoroughness is possible with these characters?

What I find hard to believe is that so many will impede our attempts to survive against these enemies. If AQ ultimately has there way(I guess 9/11 wasn’t enough) my world view in regards to them won’t change. I’m fairly certain yours will…

[LIFTICVSMAXIMVS]

Do you speak for all hippies too now?

[The_Mage]

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Do you speak for all hippies too now?[/quote]

I do:

“Peace, Love, and Income Tax!”

[anon31651765]

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

You can’t wrap your head around the difference between criminal procedure in civil society and a theater of war. They aren’t the same - and if Leftists are pushed, they have to admit it.

Here is the thing: you have an objection. But that is it. You don’t have an alternative. You think it is enough to disapprove or be offended by the nature of Gitmo - well, fabulous, but what do you recommend as a substitution?
[/quote]

I think you give them a trial, and determine the appropriate sentence and put them in a maximum security prison. If they’re to be put to death, then do it. But I don’t trust any government, including ours, to operate secret prisons.

The Left has no idea, just as they have no good answers to the problems I mentioned above with “criminal procedure” in a theater of war. As usual, the Left tries to operate in a world of good and bad choices, even as reality provides only bad ones and worse ones.

What’s wrong with what I just said?

[anon31651765]

[quote]JD430 wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

Save your book recommendations. That people do terrible things is not a revelation, nor has it anything to do with what country they come from.

Americans committed various atrocities and slaughters during the Indian Wars including the killing of women and children. Hell, we even massacred are own at Fort Pillow, but no one put Forrest in jail, or any of the generals from the Indian Wars. Hell, they got promoted.

That Americans defend this is amazing to me.

I have no intention of getting in a pissing contest. Let me suffice it to say that your angst/bravado thing is really unfortunate when applied to this issue. Dismissing a book out of hand like that, especially one so important to an understanding of the topic, shows everyone clearly the root of the problem…refusing to educate oneself for fear it may lead to an idealogical conflict.
[/quote]

That has nothing to do with it. I haven’t yet found a book that I wouldn’t read just to read, and I read alot. So don’t give me that garbage. I’m just not going to read it for the reason you stated- people all over the world do brutal things. These people are no better or worse than any of the other psycho motherfuckers that pull this shit the world over.

Also, pointing out ancient American wrong doings is another trick used all too often to cloud the discussion.

First of all dipshit, they’re not “Ancient”. All I’m saying is that you say these people are so terrible, (and they are), but remember, you great great grandfather could have easily done something similar. All people nations commit atrocities at some point. I’m not defending theirs, but let’s not get all high and fuckin mighty like “Oh, America would never do that!”. Cause we would.

I will say it once more. The Islamic terrorist is a unique threat from a culture that westerners cannot wrap their minds around fully. Show me any culture on a large scale that teaches their children that someone with different beliefs (infidels) are cattle and can be butchered just as easily. That thinking does not exist outside of radical Islam, at least not on any large scale.

Please. That’s happened in many societies with racist tendencies. It happened in the western world with the Nazis and the Jews, what, 50 years ago?

The Indians were allowed to be butchered like cattle.

The blacks were allowed to be enslaved for generations.

Do I have to keep going? Please. Once you read enough history you realize that everything that’s happening now has happened before. Cultures always dehumanize perceived enemies.

I struggled with this myself as I believe deeply in the constitution. After a good deal of study and training involving the terrorist threat, I now see the folly of trying to apply the same standards to someone who knocks off a 7-11 to an AQ thug. In fact, the most virulent and vicious of them have separated themselves so much from the family of man that I think very little of
our concept of civil rights applies to them. This does not even address the fact that AQ views the insistance of some Americans that they have civil due process rights as a tactical advantage.

They may not be able to be rehabilitated. They may be men that just would like to see the world burn… and if that’s the case, and they’re that crazed, then execute the motherfuckers. But they deserve to have someone make the decision for them. Again, we should not be imprisoning people for the better parts of their lives. It’s not right, and turns us into creatures barely better than they.

There is also the issue of effective prosecution to the standards of us civilian criminal courts. This is not an issue that is fully understood by a lot of people screaming for due process for terrorists. I have seen relatively straight forward homicide cases take up boxes upon boxes with phone book sized police reports. That kind of thoroughness is possible with these characters?

Who knows. If not, then why are we holding them? On suspicion? So we can hold people on suspicion now? It’s a slippery slope.

Do they deserve a trial of Americans? I’m not sure. I don’t know. American citizens are not “their peers”, so they’re not afforded that right… and honestly, it’s probably not a fair trial anyway. But there are judges who are fair (somewhere) who could be called on to decide the fates of these men.

What I find hard to believe is that so many will impede our attempts to survive against these enemies. If AQ ultimately has there way(I guess 9/11 wasn’t enough) my world view in regards to them won’t change. I’m fairly certain yours will…

Save it homey. People been telling me this bullshit since September 12, and I’ve been shaking my head since then.

What you gonna tell me next? That if “we don’t fight them over there, we’ll be fighting them over here?”

Or that they “hate our freedom?” Hell, Bush has plenty of garbage rhetoric for you to steal if you like

[PRCalDude]

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
JD430 wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
Yes, thank goodness we are in the process of closing Gitmo - all we have to do now is figure out how criminal procedure works in the hills of Afghanistan when irregulars are shooting at our soldiers.

Do soldiers have to “knock and announce” before entering a cave?

Do they have to read Miranda rights to irregulars they swarm?

What kind of evidence is used at their non-Gitmo trial? to sustain habeas corpus challenges?

What do we do with the current inmates?

After the sentimentalism of “closing Gitmo” subsides, we face hard choices, and our options might be worse than keeping Gitmo open. Just don’t tell the Hope and Change crowd - who get sleepy and start rubbing their eyes when the hard questions come out.

Well said.

The Gitmo issue was always nonsense and “sentimentalism” as Thunder put it. I believe it stems from an absolute and total lack of understanding of the nature of the threat. In my experience, the urgency to close Gitmo is part of a larger set of beliefs about the radical Islamic terrorist that are completely false. Specifically, I am referring to perceptions like the jihadist’s grievances stem from Western imperialism and there exists some pathway of diplomacy that will lead to us sitting down with them at a table and working all of this out. That is a Disneyland view of the problem, at least when we are talking about the type of people that Gitmo houses.

Nobody is quite sure what to do with these people. There is in fact some guidance about the handling of these maniacs in US history(look up the Nazi spies captured in the US during WW2).

Seriously study the enemy and spend some time with someone who has fought against them(I have). I think you may reach the same conclusions that I have. A military prison on a far away island, surrounded by Marines, mines and sharks is exactly where they belong. If you are using empathy to put yourself in the terrorists shoes, as I suspect many left-leaning folks do, stop now. You are very, very different than they are. Don’t take my word for it. Read “Terror at Beslan”, complete with the rape and random shooting of 6 year olds, and your perceptions will be changed forever.

Our own sentimental weakness will be our undoing.

Save your book recommendations. That people do terrible things is not a revelation, nor has it anything to do with what country they come from.

Americans committed various atrocities and slaughters during the Indian Wars including the killing of women and children. Hell, we even massacred are own at Fort Pillow, but no one put Forrest in jail, or any of the generals from the Indian Wars. Hell, they got promoted.

The fact is, this nation is not a nation of secret military prisons. If you’re giving child molesters and mass murderers trials, then apparently the brutality of the crime has nothing to do with whether or not there’s a trial.

I don’t “Put myself in a terrorists shoes”. But if you’re going to execute these people for crimes against humanity, then have a trial and execute them. If you have nothing on them, then let them the fuck go.

This is not a country that should have soldiers kicking down doors in foreign nations and putting black bags over their heads, and certainly not one that imprisons them for years without trials.

That Americans defend this is amazing to me.[/quote]

This could have been written by Professor X. The dragging up of America’s racist past, empty-headed moral equivalence, etc. It even ended with the same faux moral outrage.

Your “we killed women and children” bit seems to flatly contradict your assertion that “this is not a nation of secret military prisons.” (Is GTMO a secret? That’s all I seem to hear about from the NPR crowd.

I do understand your reluctance to read though. Most liberals can’t pick up a book or think critically, because that might disturb their therapeutic view of the world or destroy the neat little psychological distractions that help liberals blameshift their problems and shortcomings onto Bush or Israel or conservative whites.

You probably have no kids, and plainly don’t care whether or not they’re sucked into a garbage disposal, so why would you care what happened at Beslan?

“Grind a fool in a mortar and pestle with grain, yet still his folly will not leave him.”

[Headhunter]

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
JD430 wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
Yes, thank goodness we are in the process of closing Gitmo - all we have to do now is figure out how criminal procedure works in the hills of Afghanistan when irregulars are shooting at our soldiers.

Do soldiers have to “knock and announce” before entering a cave?

Do they have to read Miranda rights to irregulars they swarm?

What kind of evidence is used at their non-Gitmo trial? to sustain habeas corpus challenges?

What do we do with the current inmates?

After the sentimentalism of “closing Gitmo” subsides, we face hard choices, and our options might be worse than keeping Gitmo open. Just don’t tell the Hope and Change crowd - who get sleepy and start rubbing their eyes when the hard questions come out.

Well said.

The Gitmo issue was always nonsense and “sentimentalism” as Thunder put it. I believe it stems from an absolute and total lack of understanding of the nature of the threat. In my experience, the urgency to close Gitmo is part of a larger set of beliefs about the radical Islamic terrorist that are completely false. Specifically, I am referring to perceptions like the jihadist’s grievances stem from Western imperialism and there exists some pathway of diplomacy that will lead to us sitting down with them at a table and working all of this out. That is a Disneyland view of the problem, at least when we are talking about the type of people that Gitmo houses.

Nobody is quite sure what to do with these people. There is in fact some guidance about the handling of these maniacs in US history(look up the Nazi spies captured in the US during WW2).

Seriously study the enemy and spend some time with someone who has fought against them(I have). I think you may reach the same conclusions that I have. A military prison on a far away island, surrounded by Marines, mines and sharks is exactly where they belong. If you are using empathy to put yourself in the terrorists shoes, as I suspect many left-leaning folks do, stop now. You are very, very different than they are. Don’t take my word for it. Read “Terror at Beslan”, complete with the rape and random shooting of 6 year olds, and your perceptions will be changed forever.

Our own sentimental weakness will be our undoing.

Save your book recommendations. That people do terrible things is not a revelation, nor has it anything to do with what country they come from.

Americans committed various atrocities and slaughters during the Indian Wars including the killing of women and children. Hell, we even massacred are own at Fort Pillow, but no one put Forrest in jail, or any of the generals from the Indian Wars. Hell, they got promoted.

The fact is, this nation is not a nation of secret military prisons. If you’re giving child molesters and mass murderers trials, then apparently the brutality of the crime has nothing to do with whether or not there’s a trial.

I don’t “Put myself in a terrorists shoes”. But if you’re going to execute these people for crimes against humanity, then have a trial and execute them. If you have nothing on them, then let them the fuck go.

This is not a country that should have soldiers kicking down doors in foreign nations and putting black bags over their heads, and certainly not one that imprisons them for years without trials.

That Americans defend this is amazing to me.

This could have been written by Professor X. The dragging up of America’s racist past, empty-headed moral equivalence, etc. It even ended with the same faux moral outrage.

Your “we killed women and children” bit seems to flatly contradict your assertion that “this is not a nation of secret military prisons.” (Is GTMO a secret? That’s all I seem to hear about from the NPR crowd.

I do understand your reluctance to read though. Most liberals can’t pick up a book or think critically, because that might disturb their therapeutic view of the world or destroy the neat little psychological distractions that help liberals blameshift their problems and shortcomings onto Bush or Israel or conservative whites.

You probably have no kids, and plainly don’t care whether or not they’re sucked into a garbage disposal, so why would you care what happened at Beslan?

“Grind a fool in a mortar and pestle with grain, yet still his folly will not leave him.” [/quote]

This sounds like a good description of a typical Obama voter.

[JD430]

Irish,

I lurk here a lot but don’t post too much. I often can’t figure why you need to come on here and behave the way you do. Since that is beside the point…

Your concerns are not without validity(although some of your historical perspective is warped). Like I said, I wrestled with them and came to the conclusion that this particular enemy carries a unique ideology, comes from a terribly dangerous, broken culture and is capable of such great violence, that rules I would not support under any other circumstances are acceptable against them. You don’t agree with that.

I still cant see how the atrocities committed against the native peoples here have anything to do with fellow citizens being gassed in a subway or worse?

No sense smashing heads over it further.

And “terror at beslan” is an incredible book on a lot of levels. I would rethink putting it in the list.

[anon31651765]

[quote]JD430 wrote:
Irish,

I lurk here a lot but don’t post too much. I often can’t figure why you need to come on here and behave the way you do. Since that is beside the point…
[/quote]

What? Liberal? Or vulgar?

Your concerns are not without validity(although some of your historical perspective is warped). Like I said, I wrestled with them and came to the conclusion that this particular enemy carries a unique ideology, comes from a terribly dangerous, broken culture and is capable of such great violence, that rules I would not support under any other circumstances are acceptable against them. You don’t agree with that.

I still cant see how the atrocities committed against the native peoples here have anything to do with fellow citizens being gassed in a subway or worse?

Just showing that this enemy is no more brutal than any other enemy of any other nation in the history of the world.

People make it out like the Muslims that hate us are going to end the world, when in reality they are nothing in comparison to the threat that America faced down with the Soviets over the second half of the century.

So I often find it funny when people feel that America needs to become a massive police/military state in order to defend itself against sand sucking, dirt poor Muslims. This is a fight for that the CIA and FBI can and will fight.

[quote]
No sense smashing heads over it further.

And “terror at beslan” is an incredible book on a lot of levels. I would rethink putting it in the list.[/quote]

LIke I said, I never said that I wouldn’t read it. I just don’t agree with someone recommending it because it shows the brutality of the Muslims, and that it’s SO much different than ANYTHING the world has EVER seen- in effect, they’re using it as permission for whatever view they have, and the course of action they feel should be taken.