Testicular Atrophy PCT

Pharma
41

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]Pilosox wrote:
never tried 2/2 protocol, but willing to try it soon. 6 years training, 2 years from now of AAS usage, 4 cycles under my belt. the lenght of the cycle influences in my recovery a lot, so will try shorter protocols to avoid harsh pct…and thats my suggestion…he can take it or leave it. but i think TRT isnt an option for young guys like me or him…[/quote]

Im not sure why you’d recommend something you hadn’t tried. Paticularly if you think you are in a similar situation to theOP.

OP has been around this board for plenty long enough to be aware of Bill’s 2 on 2 off protocol. [/quote]

been there but time and bloodwork is the best indicator for recovery. if he is aware of his fragile hpta and is willing to cycle anyway then i would like to know if there is another alternative aside from TRT that is easier for recovery that 2/2 or 2/4. im just writing from what i read and experiences from other 2/2 users. isnt it a better option than the long cycle he proposes to do after (maybe) recovering?

42

[quote]Pilosox wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]Pilosox wrote:
never tried 2/2 protocol, but willing to try it soon. 6 years training, 2 years from now of AAS usage, 4 cycles under my belt. the lenght of the cycle influences in my recovery a lot, so will try shorter protocols to avoid harsh pct…and thats my suggestion…he can take it or leave it. but i think TRT isnt an option for young guys like me or him…[/quote]

Im not sure why you’d recommend something you hadn’t tried. Paticularly if you think you are in a similar situation to theOP.

OP has been around this board for plenty long enough to be aware of Bill’s 2 on 2 off protocol. [/quote]

been there but time and bloodwork is the best indicator for recovery. if he is aware of his fragile hpta and is willing to cycle anyway then i would like to know if there is another alternative aside from TRT that is easier for recovery that 2/2 or 2/4. im just writing from what i read and experiences from other 2/2 users. isnt it a better option than the long cycle he proposes to do after (maybe) recovering?[/quote]

Forget it.

43

im just trying to help here. no reason to get so upset. if something i said is wrong, please correct me as i will be glad to learn. thanks.

44

[quote]buddaboy wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]Singhbuilder wrote:
commencement of future cycle.[/quote]

???

seriously?

Youve almost certainly destroyed your HPTA at this point. Why are you still entertaining the idea of cycling? The shutdown/recovery/shutdown/recovery process is wreaking havoc on your system.

Go on trt, blast and cruise and be done with it.

You are putting all these extra drugs in your body for no reason.

Obviously it’s your body and your choice but youre clearly being naive about your current situation. [/quote]

Singbuilder: Bonez has beaten me to the punch. I was planning on saying exactly this to you, albeit with a little more sugar coating. The prospect of HRT is daunting, I know, I’ve been there, but if you always plan on training, using AAS on and off, and having a great sex life,whilst actually KEEPING your gains, then it’s the best option. I procrastinated for years and wasted all of that time as far as gains are concerned, and probably (I can’t prove this) stressed my body MORE with the repeated attempts at recovering.

I was in EXACTLY the same position as you. You have two choices now: stop using AAS, recover as best as possible and forget about using AAS again, whilst hoping you recover fully.

Your endocrine system, like mine, is NOT robust enough for cycling. HRT is the most viable option, life is short, too short to be skinny and weak with a tanked libido and void of the capacity to maintain an erection.
[/quote]

I understand that if I have in fact destroyed my HPTA axis that TRT will be my only route. The only thing holding me back from TRT at this point is the ability to have a child (or a couple lol). If there was no impact on fertility with TRT I would be on it right now.

I have looked into freezing sperm but it seems its quite an expensive process.
My best bet would be to recover, stop AAS, have kids then jump on TRT.

45

[quote]PAINTRAINDave wrote:
I’d fight tooth and nail to avoid TRT. I’d try Tripto first.

That being said, your days of cycling are over.

AAS forever. Or ‘off’ forever. There’s little choice I’m afraid.

Good luck though! [/quote]

I believe so, if this PCT fails to bring me back online (which I dont think it will) then I will definetly give the triptorelin a go.
On the up side, I am achieving morning wood and getting out of bed more easily (two very good indicators for me of my progress).

46

[quote]Pilosox wrote:
never tried 2/2 protocol, but willing to try it soon. 6 years training, 2 years from now of AAS usage, 4 cycles under my belt. the lenght of the cycle influences in my recovery a lot, so will try shorter protocols to avoid harsh pct…and thats my suggestion…he can take it or leave it. but i think TRT isnt an option for young guys like me or him…[/quote]

I am aware of the 2 on 2 off protocol by Bill Roberts. Should you try it in the near future please report a log of your recovery although I dont think your endocrine system is as shit as mine and budda’s.

47

[quote]Singhbuilder wrote:

[quote]buddaboy wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]Singhbuilder wrote:
commencement of future cycle.[/quote]

???

seriously?

Youve almost certainly destroyed your HPTA at this point. Why are you still entertaining the idea of cycling? The shutdown/recovery/shutdown/recovery process is wreaking havoc on your system.

Go on trt, blast and cruise and be done with it.

You are putting all these extra drugs in your body for no reason.

Obviously it’s your body and your choice but youre clearly being naive about your current situation. [/quote]

Singbuilder: Bonez has beaten me to the punch. I was planning on saying exactly this to you, albeit with a little more sugar coating. The prospect of HRT is daunting, I know, I’ve been there, but if you always plan on training, using AAS on and off, and having a great sex life,whilst actually KEEPING your gains, then it’s the best option. I procrastinated for years and wasted all of that time as far as gains are concerned, and probably (I can’t prove this) stressed my body MORE with the repeated attempts at recovering.

I was in EXACTLY the same position as you. You have two choices now: stop using AAS, recover as best as possible and forget about using AAS again, whilst hoping you recover fully.

Your endocrine system, like mine, is NOT robust enough for cycling. HRT is the most viable option, life is short, too short to be skinny and weak with a tanked libido and void of the capacity to maintain an erection.
[/quote]

I understand that if I have in fact destroyed my HPTA axis that TRT will be my only route. The only thing holding me back from TRT at this point is the ability to have a child (or a couple lol). If there was no impact on fertility with TRT I would be on it right now.

I have looked into freezing sperm but it seems its quite an expensive process.
My best bet would be to recover, stop AAS, have kids then jump on TRT.[/quote]

I asked exactly the same question before I went on HRT (I posted it in this forum actually), and that is why HCG is included in a proper HCG protocol.

If I were you I WOULD, however try and recover to the best of my ability and try out Triptelorin.

Good luck my friend…

BB

48

[quote]Singhbuilder wrote:

[quote]Pilosox wrote:
never tried 2/2 protocol, but willing to try it soon. 6 years training, 2 years from now of AAS usage, 4 cycles under my belt. the lenght of the cycle influences in my recovery a lot, so will try shorter protocols to avoid harsh pct…and thats my suggestion…he can take it or leave it. but i think TRT isnt an option for young guys like me or him…[/quote]

I am aware of the 2 on 2 off protocol by Bill Roberts. Should you try it in the near future please report a log of your recovery although I dont think your endocrine system is as shit as mine and budda’s.[/quote]

I have tried the 2 on 4 off, to be fair my biggest problem with it was injecting 1000mg prop a week. To be fair to Bil Roberts, this was before I knew about using back filed slin pins to inject and I abandoned the protocol because of the injection pain.

I’d much prefer to inject one shot of test decanote 250mg/ml a week instead :wink: I cannot ‘prove it’ but I would postulate that it puts less stress on the body overall doing HRT, if you are going to rely on the ‘2 on 2 off’ and there is nothing wrong with doing this IF it works for YOU, why not rely on HRT?

49

[quote]Pilosox wrote:
im just trying to help here. no reason to get so upset. if something i said is wrong, please correct me as i will be glad to learn. thanks.[/quote]

“So upset” ?

Im not upset in the least bit.

I just dont feel like explaining, what I think is a misunderstanding, that is of little relevance to the topic of the thread.

1 Like
50

[quote]Singhbuilder wrote:

[quote]buddaboy wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]Singhbuilder wrote:
commencement of future cycle.[/quote]

???

seriously?

Youve almost certainly destroyed your HPTA at this point. Why are you still entertaining the idea of cycling? The shutdown/recovery/shutdown/recovery process is wreaking havoc on your system.

Go on trt, blast and cruise and be done with it.

You are putting all these extra drugs in your body for no reason.

Obviously it’s your body and your choice but youre clearly being naive about your current situation. [/quote]

Singbuilder: Bonez has beaten me to the punch. I was planning on saying exactly this to you, albeit with a little more sugar coating. The prospect of HRT is daunting, I know, I’ve been there, but if you always plan on training, using AAS on and off, and having a great sex life,whilst actually KEEPING your gains, then it’s the best option. I procrastinated for years and wasted all of that time as far as gains are concerned, and probably (I can’t prove this) stressed my body MORE with the repeated attempts at recovering.

I was in EXACTLY the same position as you. You have two choices now: stop using AAS, recover as best as possible and forget about using AAS again, whilst hoping you recover fully.

Your endocrine system, like mine, is NOT robust enough for cycling. HRT is the most viable option, life is short, too short to be skinny and weak with a tanked libido and void of the capacity to maintain an erection.
[/quote]

I understand that if I have in fact destroyed my HPTA axis that TRT will be my only route. The only thing holding me back from TRT at this point is the ability to have a child (or a couple lol). If there was no impact on fertility with TRT I would be on it right now.

I have looked into freezing sperm but it seems its quite an expensive process.
My best bet would be to recover, stop AAS, have kids then jump on TRT.[/quote]

You should research the other boards that have plenty of success stories of guys who have been on 10+ year blasts succeeding in getting someone pregnant.

Also, your testosterone production is not the only thing relevant to fertility. You also have issues with sperm quality. Again, look into this stuff more deeply before you settle on a particular conclusion.

51

[quote]buddaboy wrote:

[quote]Singhbuilder wrote:

[quote]buddaboy wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]Singhbuilder wrote:
commencement of future cycle.[/quote]

???

seriously?

Youve almost certainly destroyed your HPTA at this point. Why are you still entertaining the idea of cycling? The shutdown/recovery/shutdown/recovery process is wreaking havoc on your system.

Go on trt, blast and cruise and be done with it.

You are putting all these extra drugs in your body for no reason.

Obviously it’s your body and your choice but youre clearly being naive about your current situation. [/quote]

Singbuilder: Bonez has beaten me to the punch. I was planning on saying exactly this to you, albeit with a little more sugar coating. The prospect of HRT is daunting, I know, I’ve been there, but if you always plan on training, using AAS on and off, and having a great sex life,whilst actually KEEPING your gains, then it’s the best option. I procrastinated for years and wasted all of that time as far as gains are concerned, and probably (I can’t prove this) stressed my body MORE with the repeated attempts at recovering.

I was in EXACTLY the same position as you. You have two choices now: stop using AAS, recover as best as possible and forget about using AAS again, whilst hoping you recover fully.

Your endocrine system, like mine, is NOT robust enough for cycling. HRT is the most viable option, life is short, too short to be skinny and weak with a tanked libido and void of the capacity to maintain an erection.
[/quote]

I understand that if I have in fact destroyed my HPTA axis that TRT will be my only route. The only thing holding me back from TRT at this point is the ability to have a child (or a couple lol). If there was no impact on fertility with TRT I would be on it right now.

I have looked into freezing sperm but it seems its quite an expensive process.
My best bet would be to recover, stop AAS, have kids then jump on TRT.[/quote]

I asked exactly the same question before I went on HRT (I posted it in this forum actually), and that is why HCG is included in a proper HCG protocol.

If I were you I WOULD, however try and recover to the best of my ability and try out Triptelorin.

Good luck my friend…

BB
[/quote]

And now that you are on HRT im sure you feel great, however what is your stance on fertility now? You have included hCG into your HRT program, are you convinced this will ensure that you remain as fertile as possible?
Also if you dont mind me asking how old are you?

To be honest since my last cycle which ended in december 2010 I have not felt as good as I felt when I was on the latest cycle, even though my bloods were normal and in the mid range I still didnt feel just quite there if that makes sense.
I suppose I have alot of thinking to do…

52

[quote]
Also, your testosterone production is not the only thing relevant to fertility. You also have issues with sperm quality. Again, look into this stuff more deeply before you settle on a particular conclusion. [/quote]

Very good observation made here Bonez, obviously I cannot just look into sperm count I must also look into sperm maturation motility etc.

I clearly have alot to learn about HRT as I never knew I might have to read up on it.

53

To be honest SB, I’ve never wanted to have children; although I don’t want to make myself sterile, it won’t be an issue to me (at least if I remain in the mindset I am in now) if I never have any children.

I went on HRT at 29, I’m 32 now. Please feel free to ask me any questions you feel that I can answer which will help you make an informed decision. Despite not wanting children I was concerned I may have a change of heart and asked the same question/questions as you are now: hence the HCG, well, that and I don’t want my balls to shrivel into oblivion!

I believe the issue with HRT affecting fertility is a complicated one, I know someone who has been on a heavy cycle (if you could call it a cycle, I call it a medley of steroids) for YEARS (like eight) and has got 2 girls pregnant whilst they were both on the pill. I’ve never even had a scare, even before I’d ever used AAS. I have also heard contentious opinions between people whom we consider experts talking about the effects of AAS on male fertility.

Your body, your life, your choice.

Good luck.

54

Bonez217, you have so many posts it’s hard to find the answer I’m looking for with the search button, so here goes my question:

You successfully recovered from your previous cycles without the need to go on TRT nor having problems the OP currently has. Have you written a log of your experiences?

55

[quote]Marc_Cavalli wrote:
Bonez217, you have so many posts it’s hard to find the answer I’m looking for with the search button, so here goes my question:

You successfully recovered from your previous cycles without the need to go on TRT nor having problems the OP currently has. Have you written a log of your experiences? [/quote]

Nope, sorry.

OPs situation is rare, IMO.

Many many people run cycles with no pct and dont suffer the effect OP is experiencing. Of course, pct drastically increases the chances of not experiencing permanent damage but some people get unlucky I guess.

56

[quote]Marc_Cavalli wrote:
Bonez217, you have so many posts it’s hard to find the answer I’m looking for with the search button, so here goes my question:

You successfully recovered from your previous cycles without the need to go on TRT nor having problems the OP currently has. Have you written a log of your experiences? [/quote]

You’ll many of your questions on PCT are likely answered in the SERM and AI sticky.

57

[quote]Singhbuilder wrote:

I also, once a few years back now, stayed ‘off’ for an entire year. By the end I was pretty well recovered (enough to get an erection when I was drunk, something I could ALWAYS do), but I don’t quite think I ever got back to where I was when I’d never used AAS. In retrospect, prior to using AAS I had EVERY symptom of low test except a low sex drive, but I didn’t start having sex until I was 19 so I guess even with low test you can get sexually frustrated…

My point is that with an extended period off of AAS (during which you can use cialis to have sex and research HRT) you may find recovery gradually improves, and I hope this is the case.

I am also looking forwards to hearing how you get on with Triptelorine.

58

[quote]buddaboy wrote:

[quote]Singhbuilder wrote:

I also, once a few years back now, stayed ‘off’ for an entire year. By the end I was pretty well recovered (enough to get an erection when I was drunk, something I could ALWAYS do), but I don’t quite think I ever got back to where I was when I’d never used AAS. In retrospect, prior to using AAS I had EVERY symptom of low test except a low sex drive, but I didn’t start having sex until I was 19 so I guess even with low test you can get sexually frustrated…

My point is that with an extended period off of AAS (during which you can use cialis to have sex and research HRT) you may find recovery gradually improves, and I hope this is the case.

I am also looking forwards to hearing how you get on with Triptelorine.[/quote]

This is also true for me, I got my erections when I was drunk lol.
I have just ordered 100mcg of Triptorelin from a research chemical website, if you type in ‘buy triptorelin research chemical’ its the first that comes up.
PTDave, what SERM protocol would you use after the triptorelin shot? Also would it be shot subQ?

59

[quote]Singhbuilder wrote:

PTDave, what SERM protocol would you use after the triptorelin shot? Also would it be shot subQ?[/quote]

Ideally I would use it to kickstart PCT, but given your situation I would complete the SERM usage. Wait 1 week an see how you feel then get a blood panel. Pay the extra coin and get the full one outlined by KSMans sticky in the HRT forum.

I’m not the most knowledgeable when it comes to interpreting blood values, but I’d do my best and I’m sure the HRT guys (many of whom are extremely helpful and knowledgeable) will chip in.

As of right now your 2 weeks into your PCT correct?

Just for now hold back on the Tripto. I think having one less compound in your bloodstream at the moment might be a good thing.

Cheers,
-PTD

60

[quote]PAINTRAINDave wrote:

[quote]Singhbuilder wrote:

PTDave, what SERM protocol would you use after the triptorelin shot? Also would it be shot subQ?[/quote]

Ideally I would use it to kickstart PCT, but given your situation I would complete the SERM usage. Wait 1 week an see how you feel then get a blood panel. Pay the extra coin and get the full one outlined by KSMans sticky in the HRT forum.

I’m not the most knowledgeable when it comes to interpreting blood values, but I’d do my best and I’m sure the HRT guys (many of whom are extremely helpful and knowledgeable) will chip in.

As of right now your 2 weeks into your PCT correct?

Just for now hold back on the Tripto. I think having one less compound in your bloodstream at the moment might be a good thing.

Cheers,
-PTD [/quote]

Yes im currently in the second week of PCT.
I switched up doseages abit, im running 60mg and 50mg of tamoxifen and clomiphene respectively. Last week it was 150mg clomid and 40mg tamoxifen but I was an emotional wreck lol. I cant go through that anymore.
Ok I will hold back on the trip, im going for a blood panel on tuesday.