Test Taper Question

Pharma
1

Hello friends,

    Before i post i would like to preface it with my now customary flame liability clause.

“I am NOT trying to re-invent the wheel here, this is a question not to see if an already fantastic protocol/system/product/idea can be improved upon, who am i to assume such a thing? Merely a question to see if it can be adapted to suit my own personal needs more effectively - thinking outside the box as it were…”

Now the legal stuff is out of the way…:wink:

I get severely surpressed by the 19-Nor tests… Nandrolone i have had experience of, but i am assuming Tren too.

I love Nandrolone, and aggression aside, i would love to use tren too. (I am even bad on Deca though FFS!)

I have reasoned that it isnt estrogen related, nor androgen related, but i think i have a particular sensitivity to HPTA suppression via progesterone/Progestins, possibly through its interaction with prolactin.

a) In which case i would favor a 6-8 week stasis, would you agree?
Would an 8+ week stasis provide any more benefit/recovery than a 6 week stasis? Also would it be wise to run a SERM through the 100mg Stasis period-in order to maximize the therapeutic potential of the stasis?

b) Also when tapering, the normal protocol is “80,60,40,20” with a week on each dose.

Would it be more favourable for a tough recovery to do something like:

Wk1-80mg
Wk2-70mg
Wk3-60mg
Wk4-50mg
Wk5-40mg
Wk6-30mg
Wk7-20mg
Wk8-10mg

And maybe run a low dose (20mgTam) SERM throughout until the end or even 1 week past the taper, with another week at 10mg?

OR maybe run the taper with 2 weeks at 80mg, 2 weeks at 60mg, etc… so the body has a chance to normalise to the new dose over a 2 week period rather than 1 week - which i suspect could be too fast when in a very suppressed situation…?

And the third question, Would Cabergoline be indicated for such a suppression?
Would it be an ideal perk or PCT addition/replacement? Seeing as progesterone does have an effect on prolactin* and excess prolactin is thought to cause impotence and loss of libido through reduction of FSH and Gonadotrophin releasing hormone. (i believe its action in men is yet to be understood - but it has quite a few considering all the effects from modulating it with a drug such as Caber…)

Thoughts gentlemen?

JJ

  • From what i have found and can understand so far progesterone ANTAGONIZES the estrogen induced release of prolactin from the pituitary. ONLY when the progesterone is administered within 1hr of the estradiol however, when it was administered 4 hours after it had no effect on the prolactin release.

From what i understand about our use of progestin based(?) AAS, progesterone acts to agonise the effects of estrogen… could this possibly cause a higher amount of estrogen induced release of prolactin, which in turn is NOT antagonoized by the progesterone as the necessary dosing protocol isn’t in place?

This is just a thought, there are so many mechanism as work here it is extremely difficult to pinpoint anything at all - especially for me who left education at 15…!

JJ

2

I dont see why running the stasis longer would cause anymore issues. Especially if you one that stays supressed longer from the Nor 19s.

I would however leave out the serms until the taper itself, when or if they are needed. I know that there are a few of us that didnt use any at all.

3

I’d second LillGuy’s response. I think the SERM would be useless during the stasis portion, as that is meant as a leveling out period. Get all the other crap out of you, outside from test, of course. Any longer than outside the ‘normal’ six week stasis, is probably unnecessarily delaying recovery.

In terms of boosting your natural test levels, you’re running about what your body makes naturally during that time, therefore the stated opinion that it would be wasteful.

Therefore, the logic that the SERM be run (if at all) applies during the actual taper portion itself. Arguments go both ways though. Many, myself included, feel the boys coming back to life even during the first week of taper. If you don’t feel that familiar ache during the taper, then yes, use it.

And, frankly, unless your body is severely lacking in its own test production at the end of the taper, the SERM itself should be finished at the same time, or before the taper is over, to allow the body to completely recover to homeostasis.

4

The one thing about the Test Taper Protocol that really convinced me that it was working, was the fact that around the third or fourth week of the waiting period, my testis started to plump back up to normal size.

If my testis were back online without dropping my test levels to near non existent levels, which would be the case with a traditional PCT, then this protocol has to be working as intended.

From this experience, I figured I could use my testis plumping back up as an indicator for the required duration of the waiting/stasis period.

With no real rhyme or reason behind it, I suspect I can run the waiting/stasis period for a length of time sufficient to allow my testis to plump back up to their normal size, and then follow that time period with another two weeks.

I will put this to the test in approximately two weeks. This go round will not be the same as the last. My last cycle lasted about 13 weeks, and the result of the Taper was as described above.

However, I have been “on” in one way or the other for the last 25 weeks. In the last 25 weeks I have experimented with a few different compounds and Testosterones of various esters.

This will certainly be a great time to test my theory about the waiting/stasis period described above.

Regarding the actual taper, I will be doing what you have described above, with the only exception being a start a 90mg as opposed to 80mg. I think the longer the taper the better, as this will provide an even smoother(sp) transition from the waiting/stasis period to completely coming off.

5

Thanks guys… good stuff.

W.H.B… if you have the time or inclination, i would really appreciate a PM with the basics (ish) of what you know about progesterone,estrogen and prolactin in relation to the male endocrine system - HPTA suppression and recovery.

I of course have a lot of pages saved and am in the process of learning and researching myself, but do respect your level of knowledge and would like to add something like that to my reading… upto you, no obligation of course!

5.0 and lil guy, the reason i mentioned the SERM DURING the stasis was due to the research showing zero inhibition of HPTA function during therapy with 100mg test and a serm - without the serm, full use of the HPTA didnt occur until 20mg of test.
If you gave me the advice with this in mind, i will go ahead and do as you suggest… if you didnt now about this - comments?

Thanks guys, i like these little chats we have. xx :wink:

6

I have to agree with the above post regarding SERM use while in stasis. I think based on the actions and reasons for using the SEMS, they are better suited for use during the taper portion.

Remember, Clomid has been shown to increase test production by 150% at as small of a dose as 25 mgs ED. I think would be beneficial when the taper has begun to assist the body. Then tapering off the clomid too, to allow for more natural responses.

7

[quote] JJ wrote:
5.0 and lil guy, the reason i mentioned the SERM DURING the stasis was due to the research showing zero inhibition of HPTA function during therapy with 100mg test and a serm - without the serm, full use of the HPTA didnt occur until 20mg of test.
If you gave me the advice with this in mind, i will go ahead and do as you suggest… if you didnt now about this - comments?[/quote]

You know how it works, JJ. That might be worth your own self-experimentation, given the variance in how everything AAS related effects people on a pendulum scale.

Personally, I used the SERM during my last taper, although my testes were recovering well. This current one, no SERM, and same results. I did not notice any recovery, though, until the actual taper, on my current one.

You may need to dose your SERM during this stasis/taper how you see fit, according to your research. And the next, during the taper. I don’t believe you’ll cause yourself any harm, the first over the second. It may be worth giving it a go.

8

Yeah… you’re right. good advice there!

I will! Thanks!