Yeah but how am I expected to do EOD on 20mg in my taper? Thats like .05 of a ml (split into 4 injects)…God knows if it even passes through the syringe as it’s so minute
Is your prop 100mg/ml? That would be 0.2ml for the week or 0.06ml (6 lines on a 50 CC slin pin) EOD. It’s doable… 
yep, 100mg/ml… I’ll give it a go. Im sure ill be OK, I was just wondering if there was a better way.
Thanks D
I am in the 6th week of my 8 week cycle of Test Enanthate. (First Cycle)
Original Cycle\PCT plan looks like this:
Week 1-8 Test E 500mg per week (250mg per Mon and fri)
Week 1-8 Aromasin 25mg E2D
Week 3-8 HCG 250iu E2D
Week 11 Nolvadex 20mg (2XD)
Week 12 Nolvadex 20mg (2XD)
Week 13 Nolvadex 20mg (1XD)
Week 14 Nolvadex 20mg (1XD)
Everything is progressing nicely. When I planned out this cycle I was convinced that with the HCG and relatively low dose cycle, recovery will be a breeze. I am now considering Stasis\Taper protocol to end my cycle. I just can’t ignore all the positive results I hear and read about the Stasis\Taper Protocol. Also, I am a bit prone to depression and stress and I am bit worried that my recovery will be harder than I normal. As an option I am considering this stasis\Taper plan to end my cycle:
Week 1-8 Test E 500mg per week (250mg per Mon and fri)
Week 1-8 Aromasin 25mg E2D
Week 3-8 HCG 250iu E2D
Stasis Period (4 weeks)
Week 9 100mg\week Test E; Aroamsin 18.75mg\E2D
Week 10 100mg\week Test E; Aromasin 12.5mg\E2D
Week 11 100mg\week Test E; Aromasin 6.25mg\E2D
Week 12 100mg\week Test E
Taper Period (4 weeks)
Week 13 80mg\week Test E; Novaldex 20mg 2Xd
Week 14 60mg\week Test E; Novaldex 20mg 2Xd
Week 15 40mg\Week Test E; Novaldex 20mg\day
Week 16 20mg\Week Test E; Novaldex 20mg\day
Some questions I am hoping to get an answer:
- From the original posting on this thread there wasn’t much mentioned about a waiting period to bring down the exogenous test to about 100mg before starting the stasis. Do I wait two weeks before starting my 4 week stasis period (50mg E3D)?
- If there is a waiting period (not stasis), do I need to take any ancillairy compounds during this time? (Please note that I am taking Aromasin 20mg E2D during the cyle)
- During the Stasis peeriod (50mg E3D for 4 weeks) do I take any ancillaries. I read something about tapering Aromasin for the first 3 weeks.
- During the tepering period, how the heck do you measure or inject such small amount. Just to test I tried drawing grape seed oil using slin pin, its really hard to widraw and squeeze out.
Thanks guys.
Link to my log to my current cycle:
Dynamo, I remember your post on this matter.
I’ll wait for others to comment about the rest, but I recently for the hell of it shot Test E with a slin pin. The first shot, I drew from the vial with the slin pin, only could get about .5ml before giving up due to it taking so long.
However, the injection went well and it went right into the muscle although it did take a bit longer to inject(not a bad thing really). I did the quads, and they were pretty simple.
The next time I drew with a standard 22g then backloaded the slin pin. This was much easier and the pin was sharper.
Tonkaboy,
I think stasis/taper is overkill for the cycle you ran especially with HCG. That said, if you decide to go ahead with it:
- Wait 2 weeks after last test e injection to start stasis
2 & 3) Continue AI during the two waiting weeks at slowly tapering doses from what you used on cycle and maintain about 1/3 to 1/4 of the dose you used on cycle throughout stasis and then lower amounts again as the taper gets quite small. Adjust according to estrogen sides. - If you are using 250mg/ml test for your taper, then 20mg (lowest weekly dose) = 8 lines on a 50cc slin pin. If you do 2x/w that is 4 lines on a slin pin twice a week.
Have you seen this thread?
In it, Bill Roberts talks about a bridging/statis period using 75mg of Masteron, with optional HCG and SERMs. He figures that maybe one could go up to 200mg of Masteron and still not be inhibited.
Note: Bill Roberts doesn’t like Prisoner’s taper, or any taper for that matter. I do NOT want to reopen that debate!
I just found it intriguing that using Masteron instead of Test could be a good thing. Prisoner proposes Test or a half Test half Masteron mix for his statis and taper protocol.
I used Prisoners Taper, I was on 800mg Test for 10-12 weeks I cant remember exactly,but, after the last injection (20mg eth) I did experience a ‘crash’ which was I believe partly psychological as much as physical.
My next cycle was 3 months and then I cruised for a few months after that on 200mg test per week reluctant to come off, I think my total time ‘on’ had notched up to approximately 9 months and prior to this II had been off for around a year before that.
I looked into Bill Roberts ideas on PCT and decided to try and combine the two, after all I had used both of them before with SIMILAR results, I would also like to add I used a small amount of GH whilst on the main cycle, (10iu before each workout 3 times a week for 3 weeks)
When I reached about the 60mg dose of the taper I prolonged it by doing 60,60,50,50,40,40 doubling the weeks and probably prolonging suppression, but giving me time to psychologically re adjust and get used to feeling different with the lower test levels, when I got down to 40mg per week, where I began to experience the crash last time, I then began taking Nolvadex at 20mg per day and carried this on until about 2 weeks after the last shot. There was no crash this time, and although I did lose weight and my libido was lower, as would be expected I was back to what I remember being normal for me.
This was my best PCT so far, I stayed off for 4 months and have since been on for nearly 6 months (a 3 month cycle and 3 months cruising) I suppose I will have to come off soon but have a holiday booked in February and want to look good on the beach…
[quote]Dynamo Hum wrote:
Slin pins are great for taper. 1/2" pin is long enough for Quads or delts. I am using prop EOD and it still manages my very low dose - currently 11 ml.[/quote]
That is good to know; my concern was the oil struggling to pass through a slin. Any problems with that?
[quote]Mousse wrote:
Dynamo Hum wrote:
Slin pins are great for taper. 1/2" pin is long enough for Quads or delts. I am using prop EOD and it still manages my very low dose - currently 11 ml.
That is good to know; my concern was the oil struggling to pass through a slin. Any problems with that?[/quote]
None what so ever; its a slower process of course compared to a 23G but I use 29G .5" slin pins all the time. Just know drawing .5ml in a 29G will take about as long 2mls with a 23G but no biggie there. Slin pins are great for bis, tris and even delts although I like longer needles for delts
[quote]Prisoner wrote:
the research showed no hpta suppression while using a serm and low dose testosterone - 100mg per week
[/quote]
I am trying to understand what this means. Is it from a published study?
Did someone measure endogenous T production during treatment and determine that it was unaffected? This would require some way to distinguish between T from exogenous and endogenous source, maybe by some calculation. Or does it just mean that endogenous T returned to baseline immediately after cessation of treatment?
What dose of SERM are we talking about?
Is this really effective? Just planning my future cycle.
hi Guys,
I recently followed the test taper protocol. What i noticed is this. I kept like 95% of my gains up until taking 80mg of test weekly. The minute I tapered to 60mg, most of my gains start going. Any advice regarding this? Ive also noticed the steroid acne die down then suddenly flare up again.
Also my testicles have shrunken again. I did use HCG during my cycle and it worked. But now on the taper things seem to be going wrong. Its ever since i shot the 60mg of Test E. Im also on clomid post cycle…moving onto half a tab as i have been tapering it as well.
any advice.
Also something that could add to the loss of my results is i have recently be rather stressed with some work related issues as well as not eating as much as i used to. So this is possibly also why I have lost some results but the other part i think is linked to something im doing wrong in the test taper.
any help would be great
thanks
Nick
Hey guys,
I have some questions regarding the Test Taper Protocol as I am ending my cycle and would like to try this approach.
Here is my 16 week cycle:
Weeks 1 - 10, 200mg/week test cyptionate
Weeks 1 - 10, 400mg/week Primobolan enanthate
Weeks 11 - 15, 250mg/week test cypionate
Week 16, 200mg/week test cypionate
On-Cycle Therapy:
Weeks 1 - 16, 250iu HCG 2x weekly
Weeks 1 - 16, 2iu HGH 5x weekly
Weeks 1 - 10, .5 - 1mg Arimidex daily
Weeks 11 - 16, .75mg Letrozole daily
I was considering doing the test/masteron approach. I have test cypionate and masteron prop.
Test Taper Protocol PCT:
Week 1 - 4, 25mg test cyp (Mon and Fri)
16-17mg mast prop (Tues, Thurs, Sat)
Taper off Letro by week 3
Week 5, 20mg test cyp (Mon and Fri)
13-14mg mast prop (Tues, Thurs, Sat)
Week 6, 15mg test cyp (Mon and Fri)
10mg mast prop (Tues, Thurs, Sat)
Week 7, 12-13mg test cyp (Mon and Fri)
8-9mg mast prop (Tues, Thurs, Sat)
Week 8, 10mg test cyp (Mon and Fri)
6-7mg mast prop (Tues, Thurs, Sat)
Week 9, 7-8mg test cyp (Mon and Fri)
5mg mast prop (Tues, Thurs, Sat)
Week 10, 5mg test cyp (Mon and Fri)
3-4mg mast prop (Tues, Thurs, Sat)
My only concern is that these doses seem ridiculously low. I read the forum and it said to backload a 1 inch slim pin. I guess that is an insulin pin and I should use the shoulder as the injection site? Any thoughts on this PCT?
Might as well chuck this into here aswell.
Im planning a cycle and this is how it looks, how does the waiting and taper periods look?
Anything need changing?
Wk 1-10 Test 400 - 1200mg/wk
Wk 1-4 Dbol - 40mg/d
Wk 8-12 Winstrol - 60mg/d
Wk 10-12 Test Prop - 350mg/wk
Wk 1-12 hCG - 250iu 2x/wk
Wk 1-16 adex - .5mg E3D (tapering down from wk 12-16)
Wk 12-16 Test prop/Mast prop - 50mg/50mg wk (waiting period)
Wk 17 Test prop/Mast prop - 40mg/40mg
Wk 18 Test prop/Mast prop - 30mg/30mg
Wk 19 Test prop/Mast prop - 20mg/20mg
Wk 20 Test prop/Mast prop - 10mg/10mg
Wk 16-20 Nolva - 20/20/20/10
[quote]Schwarzenegger wrote:
Given that using a SERM with 100mg of test does not impact HPTA function, …[/quote]
What dosage of which SERM with 100 mg of test does not impact HPTA function?
[quote]seekonk wrote:
[quote]Prisoner wrote:
the research showed no hpta suppression while using a serm and low dose testosterone - 100mg per week
[/quote]
I am trying to understand what this means. Is it from a published study?
Did someone measure endogenous T production during treatment and determine that it was unaffected? This would require some way to distinguish between T from exogenous and endogenous source, maybe by some calculation. Or does it just mean that endogenous T returned to baseline immediately after cessation of treatment?
What dose of SERM are we talking about?
[/quote]
There are studies which are supportive of different aspects. For example, Winters et al., found that if subjects are administered 100 mg of clomiphene twice daily, LH levels are unable to be decreased (and in fact continue to rise) even when serum testosterone levels are elevated up to over 2,000 ng/dl (i.e., the equivalent of the peak concentration reached after a 200 mg dose of testosterone enanthate). Naftolin et al., also had similar results.
So, the assumption is that if LH is not suppressed and in fact, increased well beyond baseline, endogenous testosterone production will continue. This has not been tested directly, but could be by administering radio-tagged testosterone. This allows one to determine the amount of endogenous and exogenous testosterone and their levels over time.
If the increase in LH (and increase and/or maintenance of amplitude and frequency) is accepted to be able to still stimulate the testicles to produce testosterone, then one can assume it will do so. hCG has been shown indirectly to do so in one study, with total testosterone levels greater than either the exogenous dose alone or the hCG alone could produce. With that in mind, LH and hCG are indistinguishable to the G protein-coupled receptor to which they bind so one can expect the same result.
Last, there is a stronger piece of indirect evidence in a separate study by Finkelstein et al. They found that after administering testolactone (and older aromatase inhibitor), that once again, LH levels could be maintained and even increased, despite exogenous testosterone administration. However, more interestingly, when they compared serum testosterone levels after administration of either testolactone by itself, testosterone by itself, or testosterone combined with testolactone, the serum testosterone level with the combination was significantly higher than those seen after administration of either testolactone or testosterone. It can reasonably be concluded that the additional testosterone seen beyond that already seen after exogenous testosterone administration must have been the endogenous testosterone. Otherwise, if endogenous testosterone were suppressed, this would have not been seen.
There are limitations to this notion which would be helped by further research, but this type of work hasn’t been a focus of many research groups.
[quote]enchilnada wrote:
There are studies which are supportive of different aspects. For example, Winters et al., found that if subjects are administered 100 mg of clomiphene twice daily, LH levels are unable to be decreased (and in fact continue to rise) even when serum testosterone levels are elevated up to over 2,000 ng/dl (i.e., the equivalent of the peak concentration reached after a 200 mg dose of testosterone enanthate). Naftolin et al., also had similar results.
So, the assumption is that if LH is not suppressed and in fact, increased well beyond baseline, endogenous testosterone production will continue. This has not been tested directly, but could be by administering radio-tagged testosterone. This allows one to determine the amount of endogenous and exogenous testosterone and their levels over time.
If the increase in LH (and increase and/or maintenance of amplitude and frequency) is accepted to be able to still stimulate the testicles to produce testosterone, then one can assume it will do so. hCG has been shown indirectly to do so in one study, with total testosterone levels greater than either the exogenous dose alone or the hCG alone could produce. With that in mind, LH and hCG are indistinguishable to the G protein-coupled receptor to which they bind so one can expect the same result.
Last, there is a stronger piece of indirect evidence in a separate study by Finkelstein et al. They found that after administering testolactone (and older aromatase inhibitor), that once again, LH levels could be maintained and even increased, despite exogenous testosterone administration. However, more interestingly, when they compared serum testosterone levels after administration of either testolactone by itself, testosterone by itself, or testosterone combined with testolactone, the serum testosterone level with the combination was significantly higher than those seen after administration of either testolactone or testosterone. It can reasonably be concluded that the additional testosterone seen beyond that already seen after exogenous testosterone administration must have been the endogenous testosterone. Otherwise, if endogenous testosterone were suppressed, this would have not been seen.
There are limitations to this notion which would be helped by further research, but this type of work hasn’t been a focus of many research groups. [/quote]
Great answer! Thank you.
[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
I can never remember the physiological reason for post cycle acne. Something to do with pH of sebaceous secretions being more favourable to bacterial growth.
Personally I would tackle it with some sort of facial wash, rather than an AI.
I don’t think it has much to do with Estrogen anyway.
www.proactiv.com apparently offers an effective treatment.
Bushy[/quote]
For all the guys with backne problems whats works best for me is Palmolive dish soap. I use the blue colored one that says “oxy” something on the bottle. It will also kill warts that develop on your hand by just applying it daily. I have seen this work wonders for several people, better than any acid wash.
[quote]tpepper88 wrote:
[quote]2thepain wrote:
I am not up on my proviron studies, are there any available that show a negative effect on the HPTA at any dose?[/quote]
“In a double-blind placebo controlled study, the clinical effects of 300-450 mg daily mesterolone were investigated in 52 relatively young … Mesterolone treatment significantly decreased both plasma testosterone and protein bound testosterone levels.”
Granted thats a shit ton of proviron, but theres your study. [/quote]
another study: