hey guys im gonna run the taper method and i have a quick question for ya!
my cycle is 8 weeks of test prop and masteron
now shall i start injecting 100mg of test e
2 weeks before the cycle ends as im using short esters and it takes time for test e to kick in or shall i start the stasis phase right after the last shot of the test/mast
thanks
adimenia,
I guess you have reasons for not using prop for the stasis/taper.
Your question is based on the fact that test e will not kick in immediatley so it could compromise your stasis/taper.
Maybe you could do the following:
W8: Day 1 Frontload 120mg test E in addition to the other AAS you have scheduled for that week. Then do a 2nd shot of 50mg several days later (Mon - Thurs for example).
Stasis
W9-12: Test E 50mg 2x/w
Taper
W13: 40mg 2x/w
W14: 30mg 2x/w
W15: 25mg 2x/w
W16: 20mg 2x/w
W17: 15mg 2x/w
W18: 10mg 2x/w
well i dont have enough prop for the stasis/taper phase thats why im using test e
well i could front load during week 8 i havnt thought of that thanks
if anyone has more opinions id be happy to hear them thx!
[quote]Dynamo Hum wrote:
Bill Roberts had been suggesting of late that the test taper as laid out is not optimal. Specifically as to when to start the stasis period of 100mg/w. He says it is ideal to allow the test in your system to fall WELL below 100mg BEFORE starting stasis.
[/quote]
Can you link me the thread he said this in? I’ve been looking through old threads with no success.
I don’t remember which thread it was in. Here is a recent post of Bill’s. I hope it is helpful.
Bill Robert’s wrote:
"If the intent is to be suppressed for only 10 weeks, which is how I figure it myself though others count cycle length according to methods such as till the day of the last large injection or other method, then assuming no further injections of any kind it will be about 2 weeks since the last TE injection before levels are low enough to be quite favorable for recovery (still moderately suppressive) though there can be some partial recovery before that point as well.
So ideally a 10-week cycle would end its TE injections at the end of week 8.
Weeks 9 and 10 could be beefed up with short acting injectables. For example 50 mg/day test prop for week 9 and the first couple days of week 10 would beef up those weeks to be as good as the earlier weeks yet allow good recovery at start of week 11.
Or Masteron could be used likewise.
Or even moreso for 50 mg/day TA.
Or orals could be used. 50 mg/day Oral Turinabol or 40-50 mg/day oxandrolone would do nicely, ending the OT a couple days before the end of week 10.
Ideally HCG would have been used weeks 1-9, at say 50 IU per day or 100 or 125 IU every other day or 125 IU 3x/week.
If not throughout, then at least using during weeks 8 and 9 will help the testes to be ready to produce T as well as possible post-cycle, and also help beef up weeks 9 and to some degree 10.
Ideally estrogen would have been kept low-normal throughout the cycle with either the dose of Arimidex individually needed, or letrozole. There seems a lot of fear-mongering with letrozole that supposedly for some men a tiny dose will obliterate their estrogen levels, but has anyone actually had a problem with one-third mg/day?
As opposed to, basing things off a study that doesn’t even report what dosage was used, or being based off hearing or reading other people saying that this was a risk?
On the other hand with Arimidex, levels that one might call a “standard dosage” such as 0.25 mg every other day there are plenty of individual reports of this being a problem.
No HCG post cycle.
If Clomid or Nolvadex are used during the cycle at respectively 50 or 20 mg/day, then this simply should be continued weeks 11 and 12. If not, then that dosage weeks 11 and 12 is good, but it’s best to take 5 or 6 doses on the first day of use, with separate dosing perhaps being better than taking all at once.
The reason is that levels take a long time to build up if not doing this, while this simply gets them to the steady-state levels promptly, rather than generating high levels as one might think.
Continuing low dose letrozole is probably ideal."
hi
[quote] Brook wrote:
hi[/quote]
What’s happenin
No one has fully addressed this: Isn’t the idea behind the stasis to get plasma concentrations of the active test ester in your blood to hover around/below 100mg (because this is the concentration level which is supported by the literature to not suppress natural output)? Shouldn’t you wait a few weeks after your last regular injection to start the stasis (because by my calculations, at a 250mg E3D plan, it takes approx three weeks to get under 100)?
Here’s what I propose:
W1-12 250mg E3D Test Enth
Wait/Stasis:
W13-15 50 mg ED Proviron
Begin Nolva at 20 mg ED week 15
Taper:
W16*-19 Test Enth 30mg/40mg/30mg/30mg E3D
Nolva 20mg ED
*(test enth blood concentration is now dipping below 100 mg)
(There’s also DBol W1-4 thrown in the mix, and Arimidex W4-12 thrown in as well)
[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:
No one has fully addressed this: Isn’t the idea behind the stasis to get plasma concentrations of the active test ester in your blood to hover around/below 100mg (because this is the concentration level which is supported by the literature to not suppress natural output)? Shouldn’t you wait a few weeks after your last regular injection to start the stasis (because by my calculations, at a 250mg E3D plan, it takes approx three weeks to get under 100)?
Here’s what I propose:
W1-12 250mg E3D Test Enth
Wait/Stasis:
W13-15 50 mg ED Proviron
Begin Nolva at 20 mg ED week 15
Taper:
W16*-19 Test Enth 30mg/40mg/30mg/30mg E3D
Nolva 20mg ED
*(test enth blood concentration is now dipping below 100 mg)
(There’s also DBol W1-4 thrown in the mix, and Arimidex W4-12 thrown in as well) [/quote]
Bill Roberts has adressed this as fully as possible. Do a search, it’s there. But yes, you are right, it is probably a good idea to delay the stasis by a few weeks.
What you have laid out is not right though.
you still need to do the stasis period. You will still need to have blood levels of 100mg/wk for 4-6 weeks before you start tapering the dose of testosterone. I don’t know why you have proviron in there. Tapering implies that you lower the dose from 100mg/wk down to 20mg/wk. You can achieve this in 4-5 weeks. After the stasis period you will inject 80/60/40/20 (bi-weekly of course). You can go down to 10mg/wk as well.
Re-read the concepts and method for the stasis taper, you appear to be a little lost.
Thanks for the reply Bonez. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge. I’ll read up on what Bill Roberts has to say about it.
Here were my thoughts on why I wrote what I did above. Although not being read-up on Bill Roberts, I was astute enough to realize that there appears to be an inherent flaw with the recommendations as laid out here in that there is no delay between last injection and the first one of the stasis.
Matter of fact, the intention of the dosages I laid out above is keep the plasma level at 100 mg. That’s why they are so low (30mg E3D). After waiting approx 3 weeks, “on cycle” blood concentration which hovered around 800-900mg is reduced to 100 mg. Waiting longer, say 4 weeks would reduce the blood concentration to near baseline.
30mg E3D appears to me to be perfect dose to maintain a stasis at the 100mg level.
As for why the F would I include Proviron in there, well that’s based on the research that BBB provided earlier in this thread, which showed that a low yet effective dose of Proviron does not affect natural production of test. I figured, “Why not throw it in if it’s going to increase sex drive, combat excess estrogen, and not affect natural test?”
I will read the Bill Roberts stuff and see what else I can learn. I appreciate any constructive criticism.
I read a bunch of stuff from Bill and others. I’m even more conflicted now (not confused)! Great info, but just conflicting theories.
Trial and error with your own reactions will be your best guide in the long run. You cannot get perfection on early cycles. You can follow the most logical and tried and true strategies. Doing that will give good results even on early cycles as you adjust for what works for you in particular.
great thread guys learnt so much from this
but there is just one concept that doesn’t seem to make sense to me and it seems a lot of others have similar misconceptions
on the second post of this thread
[quote]Prisoner wrote:
the research showed no hpta suppression while using a serm and low dose testosterone - 100mg per week
It also showed no hpta suppression with no serm use while using 25mg of testosterone enanthate per week.
[/quote]
so if theres NO suppression WITH a SERM at 100mg a week
then i would assume there WOULD BE supression WITHOUT a SERM at 100mgs a week
which is what happens during the waiting/stasis period of this protocol effectively extending the time HTPA is shut down for a further 4-6 weeks?
i could see the benefit of it if your cycle included several long acting compounds so you could get the body close/at homeostasis before tapering.
But wouldn’t it be better for recovery to wait for the appropriate amount of time for blood levels of androgens from cycle to drop below 100mg’s then say, a stasis of 4-6 weeks at 80MG test a week with a SERM (seems to fit better with the research mentioned above) then the taper for a further 4-6 weeks and still use a SERM with that as well?
that way during the whole stasis/taper you are not suppressing the HTPA. And from the start of the stasis i would guess that you would start producing LH again (albeit in small amounts at first) slowly bringing up the leydigs cells from their dormancy during the steroid cycle and ready and capable of full production at the end of the taper
please don’t take this the wrong way I’m not trying to change the protocol obviously plenty have used it with success.
But I’ve seen a problem or contradiction with it (from my understanding) and just want to make sure i fully understand it, as i will probably be using this my self. So please correct me if necessary.
I guess it’s like I said above. There is no exact dosage set in stone. There is almost certainly a range spanning some 50 mg between individuals suppression point. 80mg might work ideally for one person while 100mg might work optimally for another.
Trial and error adjustments starting from the recommended protocol will lead you to what works best for you.
[quote]brentcozi wrote:
great thread guys learnt so much from this
but there is just one concept that doesn’t seem to make sense to me and it seems a lot of others have similar misconceptions
on the second post of this thread
Prisoner wrote:
the research showed no hpta suppression while using a serm and low dose testosterone - 100mg per week
It also showed no hpta suppression with no serm use while using 25mg of testosterone enanthate per week.
so if theres NO suppression WITH a SERM at 100mg a week
then i would assume there WOULD BE supression WITHOUT a SERM at 100mgs a week
which is what happens during the waiting/stasis period of this protocol effectively extending the time HTPA is shut down for a further 4-6 weeks?
i could see the benefit of it if your cycle included several long acting compounds so you could get the body close/at homeostasis before tapering.
But wouldn’t it be better for recovery to wait for the appropriate amount of time for blood levels of androgens from cycle to drop below 100mg’s then say, a stasis of 4-6 weeks at 80MG test a week with a SERM (seems to fit better with the research mentioned above) then the taper for a further 4-6 weeks and still use a SERM with that as well?
that way during the whole stasis/taper you are not suppressing the HTPA. And from the start of the stasis i would guess that you would start producing LH again (albeit in small amounts at first) slowly bringing up the leydigs cells from their dormancy during the steroid cycle and ready and capable of full production at the end of the taper
please don’t take this the wrong way I’m not trying to change the protocol obviously plenty have used it with success.
But I’ve seen a problem or contradiction with it (from my understanding) and just want to make sure i fully understand it, as i will probably be using this my self. So please correct me if necessary.
[/quote]
Yes.
[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:
Thanks for the reply Bonez. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge. I’ll read up on what Bill Roberts has to say about it.
Here were my thoughts on why I wrote what I did above. Although not being read-up on Bill Roberts, I was astute enough to realize that there appears to be an inherent flaw with the recommendations as laid out here in that there is no delay between last injection and the first one of the stasis.
Matter of fact, the intention of the dosages I laid out above is keep the plasma level at 100 mg. That’s why they are so low (30mg E3D). After waiting approx 3 weeks, “on cycle” blood concentration which hovered around 800-900mg is reduced to 100 mg. Waiting longer, say 4 weeks would reduce the blood concentration to near baseline.
30mg E3D appears to me to be perfect dose to maintain a stasis at the 100mg level.
As for why the F would I include Proviron in there, well that’s based on the research that BBB provided earlier in this thread, which showed that a low yet effective dose of Proviron does not affect natural production of test. I figured, “Why not throw it in if it’s going to increase sex drive, combat excess estrogen, and not affect natural test?”
I will read the Bill Roberts stuff and see what else I can learn. I appreciate any constructive criticism.[/quote]
Trouble is, Proviron has been shown to be non-suppressive in men with no HPTA issues, not those who are currently shutdown - where the outcome may be different.
As with all these things it is a suck it and see thing, and this is why those with many many cycles under their belts often know a lot, as they have had the chance the experiment a little and realise what works for them.
Brook
[quote] Brook wrote:
Trouble is, Proviron has been shown to be non-suppressive in men with no HPTA issues, not those who are currently shutdown - where the outcome may be different.[/quote]
That’s a very good consideration that must be made. I use the word consideration because as you and others know, there is nothing exact about this. There are guidlines, and from there users must make considerations.
[quote]As with all these things it is a suck it and see thing, and this is why those with many many cycles under their belts often know a lot, as they have had the chance the experiment a little and realise what works for them.
Brook[/quote]
“It is a suck it and see thing” and I’m not prepared to “suck it,” so I’ll lay off the proviron in PCT. Using it at the beginning of the cycle. I’m taking it at the beginning of my cycle (now). Sipping on some Proviron and Diet Lemonade as I type this.
I am planning a 20 week cycle of test and equipoise and want to use the taper method. Since it`s a long cycle I want to use aromasin as my AI on cycle. They come in 12.5 mg capsules. My question is concerning the tapering of the AI during the statis period.
Since I can`t split the capsules I was wondering what would be the best way to taper with aromasin in 12.5mg capsules. Any ideas? The pills are way to expensive for me so getting them is not an option.
Aromasin is highly being recommended in pct these days and was wondering if using it during the taper with a serm would be a good idea. Any ideas on dosing protocols? But if I use aromasin on cycle taper it during the statis then go back on it during the taper phase makes me wonder if it`s a good idea or not.
What I was thinking if approved would be to keep running the aromasin during the statis run it during the taper and then slowly taper the aromasin as I taper the nolvadex during the last 3 weeks of the taper. Any suggestions? Would really like your opinion Prisoner.
Ritch
This cycle I’ll be tapering with propionate as I have a lot of it stashed.
When i get to the taper, how shall i proceed with my doses? Shall I continue to dose E2D? Splitting 60 mg of test in 4 shots (15 mg) is pretty difficult i think. Is there any protocol i can follow to make the doses bigger? Can I inject every 3rd day for example?
Stick with EOD and use a 50cc slin pin. God knows you’re lean enough to not have to worry about bodyfat getting in the way 
Top of quads is easy. I do it while sitting down.