This sounds great. I understand how much i have to dose and when but i have one question to help me understand things better!
OK, during the stasis period @100mg/week, am i still surpressed? Or does this dose not supress and my balls are gradually turning back on here? I thought i understood it first when i read that 100mg/week with nolva doesn’t supress, but then i read NO NOLVA during stasis!
So this is just not clicking in my head. I’m certainly not doubting you in any way. I just feel like not knowing how to do the final part of of a math question but knowing the answer!!
Bill Roberts had been suggesting of late that the test taper as laid out is not optimal. Specifically as to when to start the stasis period of 100mg/w. He says it is ideal to allow the test in your system to fall WELL below 100mg BEFORE starting stasis.
Blood level will be determined by half life of ester used. If using test e for example at 600mg/w; then after one week of non-use your blood level will be around 300mg still. After another week, you’ll still be around 150mg. After 3rd week - around 75mg. All this assuming 7 day half life. It may be more like 5 days.
Apparently suppression stops at around the 100mg threshold. That is why Bill recommends letting blood levels drop below that mark prior to starting stasis. Probably ideal to let level drop to around 50mg before starting so that the additional stasis amount doesn’t combine with what you have left and suppress you once again.
This is my understanding of the principal. My figures may not be spot on, but the premise applies.
Another way of minimizing wasted time is to substitute a short ester like prop for the last weeks of your cycle. That way the longer ester you were taking before leaves your system and the short ester will have you ready to start stasis almost immediatley following the end of your cycle. Again Bill’s idea - not mine.
I personally did 1 week of prop after a 10 week enanthate cycle (extending it to an 11 week cycle) and started stasis right away after that. Although technically according to Bill, I should have waited longer for my blood level to go down; I found the PCT very smooth and am almost finished my taper (30-40mg/w right now).
Hey guys, this is my first post on this site, i, like others am a reg on other boards, but i’ve never seen anything like this PCT before, & its definitely intrigued me.
I’m going to be using dbol, winstrol & a combo of test prop cyp for 8 wks.
I also have HCG & Nolv & Clomid for the PCT, but now i’m wondering how i will alter everything to maybe try this method out.
I just wanted to clarify a couple of things first.
When i complete my 8 wks, i do the 100mg/test in 2 doses of 50mg a wk for 6 wks = stasis, then taper down 80/60/50/40/30/20 = taper?
therefore stasis + taper = 12 weeks?
Can you use cypionate as the test to use?
Would you use the nolva/clomid during the taper or stasis. Sorry if this has been covered, just that there is a serious amount of info to take in without making notes
[quote]iconic wrote:
Hey guys, this is my first post on this site, i, like others am a reg on other boards, but i’ve never seen anything like this PCT before, & its definitely intrigued me.
I’m going to be using dbol, winstrol & a combo of test prop cyp for 8 wks.
I also have HCG & Nolv & Clomid for the PCT, but now i’m wondering how i will alter everything to maybe try this method out.
I just wanted to clarify a couple of things first.
When i complete my 8 wks, i do the 100mg/test in 2 doses of 50mg a wk for 6 wks = stasis, then taper down 80/60/50/40/30/20 = taper?
therefore stasis + taper = 12 weeks?
Can you use cypionate as the test to use?
Would you use the nolva/clomid during the taper or stasis. Sorry if this has been covered, just that there is a serious amount of info to take in without making notes
[/quote]
Look at my two posts just above. Your cycle as outlined doesn’t seem like it would require a test taper PCT. Standard Nolva PCT should suffice. If you want to do a test taper PCT; that is fine.
Just know that it takes longer and is more involved. You could save a test taper for longer cycles that include heavy shut down compounds like tren and deca.
Hmmm, interesting.
I respect your thoughts, although i have to admit i don’t wholeheartedly agree on a few aspects.
Particularly the Cyp dosing. The test levels will already be high from the prop, and running them together for a week or so should allow enough time for the cyp to kick in before the prop is discontinued.
Dosing E3D would just have a cumulative effect & therefore a huge effect on Estrogen levels, making Nolvadex essential, although to be fair, i’ll probably run tamoxifen anyway.
& why not do HCG after?
Surely stimulating the Leydigs when exogenous test levels have dropped would avoid, or at least minimise a crash?
[quote]iconic wrote:
Hmmm, interesting.
I respect your thoughts, although i have to admit i don’t wholeheartedly agree on a few aspects.
Particularly the Cyp dosing. The test levels will already be high from the prop, and running them together for a week or so should allow enough time for the cyp to kick in before the prop is discontinued.
Dosing E3D would just have a cumulative effect & therefore a huge effect on Estrogen levels, making Nolvadex essential, although to be fair, i’ll probably run tamoxifen anyway.
& why not do HCG after?
Surely stimulating the Leydigs when exogenous test levels have dropped would avoid, or at least minimise a crash?[/quote]
The cyp is going to take 3 weeks minimum to build up to a stable level. If you frontload it that will occur quicker. If you don’t want to frontload it then running it from day one will allow the prop to act as a kickstart.
EDIT
Injecting cyp E3D is recommended because of its theoretical half life. No one can stop you from shooting it E5D but dont think that shooting it less often is going to keep estrogen levels in check. Shooting E3D or E5D is still going to create a ‘cumlative’ effect, if I understand correctly what you are implying by that. You would obviously split the dose in half (roughly speaking) and shoot that dose E3D or twice per week to keep levels more stable.
Nolvadex is not recommended to use during cycle. There is absolutely no need for it. Use an AI properly and gyno should not occur, making nolvadex pointless to include. Post cycle nolvadex is fine if you chose to go with the SERM based PCT (if that is the case then why is this post in this particular thread?). Keeping estrogen under control is important for plenty of other reasons besides gyno prevention. Nolvadex does nothing for systemic estrogen levels.
hCG should not be used post cycle because of the feedback response it creates. The stimulation of testosterone via hCG administration will cause conversion to estrogen. The presence of high estrogen levels will cause suppression of natural testosterone. Commonly accepted dose of hCG is 250iu EOD during the cycle.
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
iconic wrote:
Hmmm, interesting.
I respect your thoughts, although i have to admit i don’t wholeheartedly agree on a few aspects.
Particularly the Cyp dosing. The test levels will already be high from the prop, and running them together for a week or so should allow enough time for the cyp to kick in before the prop is discontinued.
Dosing E3D would just have a cumulative effect & therefore a huge effect on Estrogen levels, making Nolvadex essential, although to be fair, i’ll probably run tamoxifen anyway.
& why not do HCG after?
Surely stimulating the Leydigs when exogenous test levels have dropped would avoid, or at least minimise a crash?
The cyp is going to take 3 weeks minimum to build up to a stable level. If you frontload it that will occur quicker. If you don’t want to frontload it then running it from day one will allow the prop to act as a kickstart.
EDIT
Injecting cyp E3D is recommended because of its theoretical half life. No one can stop you from shooting it E5D but dont think that shooting it less often is going to keep estrogen levels in check. Shooting E3D or E5D is still going to create a ‘cumlative’ effect, if I understand correctly what you are implying by that. You would obviously split the dose in half (roughly speaking) and shoot that dose E3D or twice per week to keep levels more stable.
Nolvadex is not recommended to use during cycle. There is absolutely no need for it. Use an AI properly and gyno should not occur, making nolvadex pointless to include. Post cycle nolvadex is fine if you chose to go with the SERM based PCT (if that is the case then why is this post in this particular thread?). Keeping estrogen under control is important for plenty of other reasons besides gyno prevention. Nolvadex does nothing for systemic estrogen levels.
hCG should not be used post cycle because of the feedback response it creates. The stimulation of testosterone via hCG administration will cause conversion to estrogen. The presence of high estrogen levels will cause suppression of natural testosterone. Commonly accepted dose of hCG is 250iu EOD during the cycle.
[/quote]
Thanks for the advice & information. I’m going to have a good read of everything before i reply properly. All i will say is if HCG is advocated by people such as William LLewelyn (Anabolics) & daily Nolva by people such as Mick Hart (Laymans Guide to Steroids), there must be some reasoning & justification. I’m not saying that your wrong. I just like to have all information before commenting.
& the reason it is in this thread is because i initially suggested doing a test taper after the cycle & it was suggested it would not be necessary. That is all.
I will PM you both to bounce more ideas/info from you.
So how would you use the HCG and the Letro in this setup? In previous cycles I was using 500hcg every sunday during the cycle and 1.25mg letrozole every 4 day. And I assume since Im using masteron that the clomid is not needed or ?
Hey guys long time T-Nation reader first post. I’m addressing this post to Prisoner I’ve read the taper protocol I think I got it I wanted your feed back on the cycle I just finished in regard to my taper protocol.
Ok, I’m 45 years old I’ve been working out since I was 12 did a few cycles back in the 80’s and recently decided to do one. I started with a pussy cycle 250mg of Test E and 200 Primo per week for 6 weeks. I had the stuff tested and the stuff was legit.
Back in the day I use to get my stuff from a Pharmacy but that all ended with scheduling. Anyway, my start weight on this cycle was 165 pounds I just finished my last shot of Test E and Primo this last Saturday total weight gain was 12 pounds.
Water retention was minimal I always follow a low carb diet, drink tons of water and did my cardio daily along with weight training. If I remember correctly the gear will still be in me for another two weeks post last injection which was testE.
Question, how would you approach the PCT on such a light cycle? I plan to use TRIBEX in the PCt some have suggested to use Clomid and Nolvadex for three weeks, back in the day HCG was what we used. Please advise…
Check the standard SERM PCT sticky. All the info you want there. Sounds good to start two weeks after last injection in order to let serum test level fall adequately prior to PCT.
Standard is:
Nolva
W1: 40mg/d
W2: 40mg/d
W3: 20mg/d
W4: 20mg/d
Edit: Yes as Brook pointed out this (starting SERM PCT 2 weeks after last injection) applies to the test enanthate ester. You are basically starting PCT when the test serum level has fallen to 100mg or less and that is dependant on the ester half life.
