This is a very old aproach (the tampering) but now with a new twist that give reason and logic this is a must read for every one using roids.
[quote]Prisoner wrote:
Mousse wrote:
InventiveFlow wrote:
I have 5000mg of Test-E, and I was planning on doing my usual 500mg a week for 10 weeks with Arimidex in small doses on cycle and then plain old Nolva for PCT. However, due to the way things are going around here I can’t get any Nolva/Arimidex for my next cycle.
Is there someone better at math than I am that can figure out how I should modify my cycle to do the cycle itself/then a taper with only 5000mg? As best as I can figure, I could do 8 weeks at 500mg a week and use 1000mg for the taper…
Hopefully someone can help, I’ve always been interested in a taper and now I’m kind of forced into doing it - albeit very raw with no Arimidex or Nolva! Thanks.
If you can get a hold of some prop for the taper that would be ideal. I think you are asking if you can taper off with 1000mg of Test E - if that’s the case my math has you using 600mg for the 100mg/wk stasis, leaving 400mg for the actual taper, although prop would be ideal I think that 400mg of E should be enough. I’m not a vet though and would use Prop only so maybe someone who has successfully tapered with the longer esters can chime in here.
OTOH, there really is no excuse not to have an AI and SERM (if you need it) IMO…they are merely a click away.
Actually use test prop only if you cannot use a longer acting compound such as test enanthate or cypionate.
You don’t want to use anything that could cause a ‘spike’ in your hormone levels, use something that will keep the levels smoothly declining, a spike can increase SHBG, and estrogen levels. Just like on cycle spikes in hormone levels will also increase acne. So avoid testprop if possible.
[/quote]
What half life are you using for test prop? Using a 2 day half life test prop shot in even amounts every day should vary by about ~1mg according my math…
[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
egnatiosj wrote:
Prisoner wrote:
Mousse wrote:
InventiveFlow wrote:
I have 5000mg of Test-E, and I was planning on doing my usual 500mg a week for 10 weeks with Arimidex in small doses on cycle and then plain old Nolva for PCT. However, due to the way things are going around here I can’t get any Nolva/Arimidex for my next cycle.
Is there someone better at math than I am that can figure out how I should modify my cycle to do the cycle itself/then a taper with only 5000mg? As best as I can figure, I could do 8 weeks at 500mg a week and use 1000mg for the taper…
Hopefully someone can help, I’ve always been interested in a taper and now I’m kind of forced into doing it - albeit very raw with no Arimidex or Nolva! Thanks.
If you can get a hold of some prop for the taper that would be ideal. I think you are asking if you can taper off with 1000mg of Test E - if that’s the case my math has you using 600mg for the 100mg/wk stasis, leaving 400mg for the actual taper, although prop would be ideal I think that 400mg of E should be enough. I’m not a vet though and would use Prop only so maybe someone who has successfully tapered with the longer esters can chime in here.
OTOH, there really is no excuse not to have an AI and SERM (if you need it) IMO…they are merely a click away.
Actually use test prop only if you cannot use a longer acting compound such as test enanthate or cypionate.
You don’t want to use anything that could cause a ‘spike’ in your hormone levels, use something that will keep the levels smoothly declining, a spike can increase SHBG, and estrogen levels. Just like on cycle spikes in hormone levels will also increase acne. So avoid testprop if possible.
What half life are you using for test prop? Using a 2 day half life test prop shot in even amounts every day should vary by about ~1mg according my math…
Really? Mind if I run my maths by you then, lol?
2 days is 48 hours. An ED shot at the same time each day, would be 24 hours apart, so ‘half of the half’ life, in effect.
I’m not totally cognizant when it comes to drug metabolism, so hopefully you can educate me a little, with your pharm education.
if half of the drug is metabolised in 48 hours, is it thae case that in 24 hours, 1/4 of the the drug is metabolised?
If so, then by the time you get to the 40mg per week stage of the taper, and are injecting 5.7mg ED, you would lose about 25% of 5.7mg = 1.4mg.
Have I got that right?
Anyway, I guess ED prop is OK for the taper, but what a drag, trying to administer that small dose every day.
BBB[/quote]
Why the sarcasm? I wasnt trying to offend anyone, I was asking a question.
I was talking about the stasis portion. Using 10mgED by about the second week is where I got my average.
egnatiosj,
I didn’t note any sarcasm. BBB was brainstorming with you as far as I can see.
egnatiosj,
I didn’t note any sarcasm. BBB was brainstorming with you as far as I can see.
Agreed, It appears that BBB was only bouncing a few numbers off you as a legit question. If you do really have a pharm background, then you are a valuable resource on this forum. BBB has a tendency (as far as I can tell from years of reading his posts), to be a straight shooter on stuff like this.
Peace,
[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Really? Mind if I run my maths by you then, lol?
2 days is 48 hours. An ED shot at the same time each day, would be 24 hours apart, so ‘half of the half’ life, in effect.
I’m not totally cognizant when it comes to drug metabolism, so hopefully you can educate me a little, with your pharm education.
if half of the drug is metabolised in 48 hours, is it thae case that in 24 hours, 1/4 of the the drug is metabolised?
If so, then by the time you get to the 40mg per week stage of the taper, and are injecting 5.7mg ED, you would lose about 25% of 5.7mg = 1.4mg.
Have I got that right?
Anyway, I guess ED prop is OK for the taper, but what a drag, trying to administer that small dose every day.
BBB[/quote]
Okay so I guess I might have been a little sensitive (damn clomiphene!) so Ill answer it like you werent being sarcastic and hope they were right lol…
your idea about the half life and the 1/4 of the injection for the “half of the half life is pretty sound”
For clarification though I use the following equation
C{t} = C{0} e^{-kt},
* Ct is concentration after time t
* C0 is the initial concentration (t=0)
* k is the elimination rate constant
so for your 40mg taper week, 40/7
5.714285714/day
after 24 hours 4.040610178mg will be remaining
thus 1.673675536mg active in the body
so 1.4mg is close enough in my opinion.
I was referring more to the 100mg/week stasis period where Prisoner said that blood levels would be too unstable with the Prop, and I disagree they will deviate very little (after stable blood levels have been reached 4.7*half life of prop)
I also think prop is beneficial in that it wont carry over to the next week per say. Enth is much more likely to cause unstable levels (by a few mgs, still might not be significant)
Also with regards to the prop shooting every day, why not shoot subq with such a small volume it shouldnt be a problem. Only issue is that the less vascular hypodermic layer will effect the pharmokinetics by a few hours, about 5hrs (based upon the deviation of penicillin from IM to SUBQ) Obviously they are very different solutions but perhaps just a ballpark…
Also knowing that the SHBG is more effected by rising levels of estrogen not the testosterone it would be that, that I would worry about most not the test level… (Though obv they are related)…
Sorry if that wasnt very clear
BBB,
egnatiosj may not have a pharmacology background, but he certainly is one smart dude 
Unfortunately halflives in injectable oil esterified steroids do not follow a steady staight (even) declination from begining to end.
When you inject something like test prop, there is a ‘peak’ where the majority of the hormone is absorbed and then followed by a steep drop that levels into a slower declination.
Basically in all steriods, even longer acting steroids, the bulk of the injection is absorbed sooner, and the rest is then absorbed over time, gradually releasing less and less from the muscle as time goes by.
Think of it as this. Put a towel over a bucket and poor a 100ml of water onto the towel. With in the first minute about 60-70% (the majority) of the water you poured on that towel is going to drain from the towel into the bucket. The rest is going to drip slowly, as time goes by progressively dripping slower, and slower.
This is kind of how it is when you inject an oil - esterfied depot into the muscle. You cannot calculate the halflife in the same way you calculate traditional halflives that are computed usually by oral drugs or IV drugs. The halflives in these cases measure the point in which the drug is exposed to the your metabolic system (in these cases all at once) and begins to be metabolized by the liver, and eliminated from the body.
That is why, using test prop is not a sound choice IMO for the taper method, as the peak is too high, and drop off too low.
Ideally best is test cyp or test enanthate injected more than once per week, or if available, androderm patches would be the most suitable.
You also have to consider:
Ester design but also wirthout any ester attached you must take into account
drug onset speed and of course drug elimination time.
And of course these things plus i assume other factors (unknown to me with no degree or education to speak of) contribute to pharmacokinetics - when talking prozac, heroin or letrozole… any drugs.
As we primarily deal with esterified drugs we forget that these drugs have a natural curvature of effect as Prisoner mentioned above.
Brook
ok Ive been reading this whole post and there is still one thing i don’t get.
prisoner said:
"start Waiting peroid:
Week 1-6 or 1-4: Test E 100mg per week
Taper off Arimidex or femara fully by week 3
Taper phase:
week 1-6
mg/ week: 80mg / 60mg/ 50mg/ 40mg/ 30 mg/ 20mg.
Start your Serm (nolva or clomid) at the begining of the taper if you choose to do so."
so if i understand correctly you inject 100mg a week during the waiting period? and then start the taper period? or you just wait during the waiting period and start the taper period? i just need clarification on this issue everything else is clear thanks:)
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you inject 100mg a week during the stasis period. The stasis period is often dictated by the length of the cycle or the ester you used (longer ester = longer stasis such as enanth or deca).
ok so let me get this right you inject 100mg/w during the stasis (waiting) period and then start the tapering period?
Correct.
thank you very much! 
As I reach the end of my taper, 40mg, 30 mg, and 20mg are getting really hard to measure with my 1 ml syringe; due to the fact that they’re split in two doses a week. I end up measuring 20, 15, and 10 mg for each dose as i inject twice a week.
Can enanthate be injected once a week when reaching such small doses? My pharmacy does not supply any barrels smaller than 1 ml (for example, .50 of an ml).
Prisoner recommends 1ml tuberculin syringes and many people use slin pins. I just ordered myself some 29g .5cc barrels for my taper.
Slin pins are great for taper. 1/2" pin is long enough for Quads or delts. I am using prop EOD and it still manages my very low dose - currently 11 ml.