I made my greatest progress when I limited consumption of alcohol to “nursing” a single beer Saturday nights at a hopping nightclub.
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I think the thing with alcohol is that it does have some utility in a social sense. It is fun to have a drink out with friends. But like any drug, it has downsides too. When using it, it makes sense to think about what is the amount that delivers a lot of positives without many negatives. I think it is individual. For @RT_Nomad it was one beer on a Saturday night. For others it might be more, for some it might be 0. For me, the couple of drinks on week nights doesn’t make sense anymore. A couple out with friends on the weekends does make sense.
I like the idea of setting a drink calorie limit for the week. Like no more than X calories in the week. It also encourages me to not get drinks with a bunch of nonsense sugar in them.
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I’ve always found this variable to be interesting
For a steroid user/guy who wants to start using? Yes, he’s weak
Gymrat? This guy is slightly below average re his strength aside from his bench
Regular gym-bro? He’s considered run of the mill, his bench would be considered respectable, and his deadlift would be considered standard.
Desk job guy who guys to gym 3x/wk? This guy would be considered strong
Sedentary guy? WOW that guy is super strong!
For the recreational hobbyist who lifts maybe twice a week coupled with cardio… perhaps cycling or running. This guy would be considered fucking strong by that crowd
From the bodybuilding/powerlifting crowd? This guy is no weak it’s like he’s never set foot in a gym before
The guy is still stronger than say 95% of the population with these stats. My father can’t even deadlift 225 (though when he was my age it was like 315 at a weight of like 60kg).
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Considering the topic by the OP, isn’t this the only variable pertinent?
I would much prefer seeing the OP with a decent strength level before jumping into AAS.
OP is taking higher doses and longer periods of time “on” than I ever took. (Granted I had taken very many cycles, approaching 100) IMO OP needs much greater commitment in all facets required to build muscle and strength.
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I agree with how @unreal24278 sees it but since no one posts pictures, we have nothing else to go by. I also know many huge guys who never bench more than 2,5 plates but they would definitely add a picture when join a forum. Since people dont add pics i automatically assume the worst and all we have to go by is strenght. In an ideal world guys who care abt strength would post lifts and guys whi care about the look would post pics. Sadly, most people don’t share none of these…but most times its because they dont have nor the look nor the strength to qualify for steroid use.
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I didn’t make my comment to justify OP’s sauce usage. It was just something odd I’ve been thinking about
It reminds me of the same mentality within the masses for combat sports
Average joe “he’s a black belt in judo… wow”… many will be impressed with a brown belt onwards
Judoka
“Shodan is but a rank insinuating my martial arts journey has just begun, tell me I’m impressive when I’ve at the very least reached nidan”
Competitive judoka
“He might be nidan, but he hasn’t even won any state titles!”
Exceptionally talented competitive judoka
“STATE? that’s chump change, he hasn’t even been to the olympics one”
The bar for what is considered impressive tends to be very low for normies, and keeps increasing as we look at those who have achieved greater feats
As if a 245lb bench isn’t impressive… It’s better than like 99 percent of the population. I’m saying this as someone who could bench more than 245 when I weighed only around 160 (heaviest I’ve is near 180)
Here’s the thing… a green/blue/brown belt (not even black) in judo will annihilate 99% of adults walking around on the street. The bar for impressive by competitive standards entails a level of skill that would enable someone to throw an untrained attacker who is easily 50+ lbs heavier with ease.
If someone doesn’t believe me, go attend a judo class. Judo throws (once you can execute one with adequate technique) enable one to manipulate leverage in order to potentially throw someone significantly heavier. Judo throwing someone who weighs 225 lb feels much, much, much, much easier than trying to brute force someone down who is heavy. It’s a really cool sport and if I ever recover, I’d like it to become my main thing until my body totally gives out.
I still cannot accept 245lb bench press for someone over 200lbs and 3 AAS cycles as anything but disappointment. (Even for 6 reps.) Defend it if you like. I am on the verge of claiming Sink. (Now a shoulder injury changes all that.)
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I’m not talking about impressive in a context of whether OP should be using AAS or not.
I’m talking about “what percentage of the population can actually bench that much”
Even if they weigh at much as OP does… they’d probably be benching 180 or so. The average joe doesn’t even have a gym membership. People who use AAS or who have been going to gym for years have an inflated expectation regarding how strong people should be.
I was able to (almost) deadlift 5 plates at a BW of 170 at my strongest. There are plenty on here who would say that isn’t ‘strong’
However, I was about to out-deadlift let’s say 95% of people in the gym I was in at the time (was overseas)… and picking someone off the street and asking them to deadlift.
What do you think the chances are they’d be able to pull a similar amount of weight? Very unlikely, the majority probably don’t even know what a deadlift is.
I’ve seen some naturally strong guys who work manual jobs pull around 315 first time. But not 495
Yet many on here would say my max (which was closer to 475) was weak.
This guy IS too weak to be using steroids for his size as you’ve generally gotta show you are in it for the long haul for people to validate someone taking a risk as big as jumping on the sauce. On the other hand, I don’t understand why people keep creating these threads.
If someone wants to use, they’re probably going to use anyway. Looking for validation on forums in order to go ahead with a cycle makes no sense to me. At the end of the day, the approval of others hardly changes the degree of risk involved.
Agreed. Even if there were no prior cycle history this would not justify usage.
Once we start talking about AAS usage, the average Joe has no place of reference in the conversation. IMO, AAS usage eclipses anything “average Joe” expectations.
That said, I agree with your presentation of relative strength.
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@blshaw @RT_Nomad Using squat/bench/deadlift as a metric to measure whether someone is ready may not be reliable. OP has apparently been a ‘gym rat’ for two decades. It is possible to be strong, yet not be particularly strong with these three lifts. Some people actually don’t train ‘the big three’, due to constraints around mobility or fear of injury
for BODYBUILDING, I never found it ‘necessary’ to squat, bench or deadlift with barbells. I did perform these lifts however they hardly felt necessary. It got to a point at one stage when I could do weighted dips with around 135lbs attached for sets of 5-8, could max out numerous machines, do weighted pullups with quite a bit of weight attached and muscleups
But I couldn’t squat 405 or bench even 225lbs etc. I didn’t train for those particular movements. If OP has a 20 year history in the gym I’d find ask “what was his routine, why are his stats so weak for 20 years and is otherwise very capable strength wise but doesn’t squat/bench/DL”
If he does squat, bench and deadlift, has run tren/high dose cycles and these are his stats I’d think something was off (like isn’t training correctly, eating right, sleeping enough etc)
When I actually started training bench, squatting and deadlifting I became quite strong (by my standards), but benching wasn’t good for my shoulders and I’ve had shoulder reconstructive surgery now 
I could bench, squat and deadlift way more than this guy could and weighed way less. But I’m also fairly sure I know how to train and eat
Yet the OP mentioned the big three lifts in his first post. Why would I suspect he might really excel in any other lifts?
Because how is it possible to train for twenty years, weigh 235lbs, have run large cycles and not be quite strong?
For relative strength OP is strong, but for his duration of working out + cycle history you’d think he would be way stronger.
Something is off
Either OP is actually strong or he hasn’t worked out for 20 years properly
I’d also question whether we should encourage people to bench. I bench pressed through injury and recurrent dislocations. Benching out of everything always felt the worst for my shoulder
By the time surgery came around the damage was so extensive I had to be sliced open as opposed to arthroscopic surgery. They had to repair two labral tears, a torn rotator cuff and I had to have my biceps tendon cut (now have popeye arm even though the tendon was re-attached I believe)
I was lucky they didn’t conduct a remplissage for the fracture I had at the posterolateral aspect of my humerus. Size of fracture was very borderline
It’s actually funny because it never hurt ‘that badly’. When I’d dislocate my shoulder, I didn’t even stop to think it had dislocated, I thought my shoulder was sub laxing . The body of thought was more like “I can pull on it, and it goes back in therefore I’m fine and no trip to the ER is needed”
Until one day I had a particularly bad dislocation, then I went boxing on the same day… the next day I woke up and couldn’t use my arm properly and I was in a lot of pain from that day on until 6 months later when I got the surgery. It was at THIS point after perhaps 6-10 lifetime dislocations that I realised I MIGHT be in trouble
@RT_Nomad also… I used to deadlift/squat a lot (also have connective tissue disorder for reference) on top of combat sports that required explosive twisting of the hips.
I now need both of my hips operated on… WhOoPs @blshaw
Not a minor procedure either. This is going to really suck; it’s going to take potentially years to recover from
Should we recommend pulverizing barbell lifts?
I do agree with the possible (or eventual) injury bench pressing. The problem is that it is the most commonly agreed upon standard for measuring upper body strength. Plus the standard lift has easy guidelines to measure with minimal “reproducibility” variation. The generally accepted rules make measurement errors less than, say, overhead press with varying degrees of back arch, which has its injury potential.
IMO, Incline press is less dangerous than the bench press, but degrees of incline are different and available leg drive can be different from one bench to the other.
Behind the neck press is way too dangerous and people lower the bar in vastly differing levels.
Maybe parallel bar dips with weight, but there would need an agreed upon depth level. Might it be upper arms parallel to floor? Or just break parallel, like the squat in many federations.
Or get away from all presses and do weighted pull-ups?
I suppose until some other upper body strength standard is agreed upon, we will settle with the bench press for now.
Pull-ups and dips have a body weight component that would require something like a Schwartz formula to come to a relative strength number. Who’s going to do that required work?
Aside from those with mobility issues I really do believe weighted pullups with good form, and weighted dips might be a safer metric for measuring strength if you have decent mobility. Otherwise DB chest press, floor press (way less stressful for shoulders)
Not everyone is me, but I’m not really a good candidate for benching. Even incline benching gave me shoulder irritation and has done so for a very long time. I preferred decline bench or DB chest press, however I continued to bench until open surgery because I could always put up more weight on the bench
Now I realise it doesn’t really matter and benching wasn’t even conducive towards my goals… gotta put aside the ego and be safe
Deadlifts can cause injury if one is an idiot about them, but I actually believe it’s a solid exercise for injury prevention if done properly. Teaches good motor recruitment patterns for real life if you need to say lift up a heavy box
SO many people throw their backs out and wind up with crippling injuries due to poor biomechanics when lifting objects in the home or at the workplace.
One can also use captains of crush (grippers). If you can close like no 2+ it means you are incredibly strong. no 2+ means you can contract the muscles of your forearm hard enough to squish 195lbs into place
Most guys who can deadlift 4-5 plates wouldn’t be able to do this for reference. I couldn’t get it all the way closed when I was near 5 plates. I can still get no 1-1.5 closed though
Captains of Crush No. 2 hand gripper - IronMind-www.ironmind-store.com
There’s always a place for outliers. However, the big three staple lifts can be done heavily and safely with proper form and approach. Steroids are for the big leagues which means big strength. If you are injury prone than they shouldn’t even be in the conversation.
I would bet on this. It’s typical commercial gym lifting. That’s why I suspect the bench although not great is disproportional to the lower body lifts. 245 for 6 is getting strongish. Maybe it translates to 285 lb max. That is a rare lift, even though it seems not great to us. We are the people who try harder than others I suspect (especially @RT_Nomad back in the day).
I’ll say when I was thinking about steroids first his lifts match up with mine. I waited a lot longer, and got significantly stronger before doing so (I think I had about a 1250 total). Lots of guys weaker than me were cycling though.
I wouldn’t look too much into the three cycles. I’m guessing this was a pattern of cycle and gain, then lose gains, then cycle again. That isn’t a great pattern for someone wanting to do this though.
My guess is if op dedicated himself to strength training he would get a lot stronger. I don’t think it’s bad genetics here. Just a pattern if seen more often than not.
Weighted dips are a ticking time bomb for me. Pullups too, but I can and do chin ups regularly (both body weight and weighted).
I agree we don’t have to use the big three though. If someone wants to ohp, for their press, that’s fine. If someone used sumo instead of conventional that’s fine too. Heck I’ve been doing rdls and belt squats in place of barbell squats because they just haven’t ever felt natural for me.
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30% of the population has FAI and will end up requiring surgery if they are big into squatting and deadlifting heavily for years coupled with any type of sport. Another 1-2% have hip dysplasia
It wouldn’t be an outlier for a powerlifter to wind up with fucked up hips. FAI + heavy weightlifting that involves hip hinging/bending = early onset osteoarthritis, hip replacements, labral tears etc.
It should also be noted depending on the nature of the sport, anabolic steroids may elevate or reduce injury risk. Endurance sport + something like EQ… probably reduces the risk of injury in the short term as you’ll be carrying more muscle mass to support the high impact stress associated with repeatedly stomping on concrete (running) and increases BMD so stress fractures would be less common esp considered endurance training leads to compensated hypogonadism.
Martial arts? Depending on what you use it probably reduces the rate of injury. Harder to crack a rib in something like BJJ when you carry more muscle mass.
Powerlifting? Probably increases the likelihood of injury
Bodybuilding? Also probably increases injury risk
Olympic weightlifting? Increased injury risk
Sprinting? Increased injury risk
so on
Didn’t you have shoulder reconstructive surgery? and/or you had a torn RC?
Yes
back in the day anabolic steroids were either prescribed through a doctor, or they were sourced through people as there was no internet.
The barrier to entry was higher as opposed to now when tik tok teens promote sarms and AAS are available through the black market with virtually unrestricted access.
But you are a powerlifter? How can you compete without back squats?