Terri Schiavo: More Grandstanding

[quote]Joe Weider wrote:
Professor X wrote:
This isn’t about “sovreignity”. This is about a married man having the right to handle his wife’s estate in a situation like this. Just to offset that little tangent you just went on, if you were married and you were in a coma, who is in charge of your business concerns? Is anyone else in charge other than your wife? Should they be?

Prof, please don’t change the subject. I can’t deal with it today. Answer my questions/concerns. At what point does the husband cease being the husband? When he suddenly remembers after 6 years, when he finally wins the lawsuit? Or is it when he essentially takes another wife?
[/quote]

He hasn’t taken another wife. That would require him to be married to someone else. Living with someone is not marriage, no matter how you try to flip it. Also, you are the only one (along with whatever other biased places you get your news) who is saying that he “suddenly” remembered anything. If anything, it sounds like the man waited for over 6 years to see if there was going to be any improvement. Why spin it in a negative light like you have?

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Joe Weider wrote:
Professor X–why are you in such a damn hurry to kill her?

He heard she used to work for a credit card company! :slight_smile: Oh come on smile…

[/quote]

or that she was one of the people who assign the ratings to tv shows.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Joe Weider wrote:
Professor X wrote:
This isn’t about “sovreignity”. This is about a married man having the right to handle his wife’s estate in a situation like this. Just to offset that little tangent you just went on, if you were married and you were in a coma, who is in charge of your business concerns? Is anyone else in charge other than your wife? Should they be?

Prof, please don’t change the subject. I can’t deal with it today. Answer my questions/concerns. At what point does the husband cease being the husband? When he suddenly remembers after 6 years, when he finally wins the lawsuit? Or is it when he essentially takes another wife?

He hasn’t taken another wife. That would require him to be married to someone else. Living with someone is not marriage, no matter how you try to flip it. Also, you are the only one (along with whatever other biased places you get your news) who is saying that he “suddenly” remembered anything. If anything, it sounds like the man waited for over 6 years to see if there was going to be any improvement. Why spin it in a negative light like you have? [/quote]

essentially taken another wife, was my statement. Don’t take shit out of context.
Anyway. Check laws regarding ‘common law’ marriages.
He’s living with this woman, and he’s declared his intention to marry her.
Biased places I get my news? You mean like the AP? You’re really beginning to reach, dude.

Networks Slant Coverage Against Terri’s Parents, Survey Shows
By Susan Jones
CNSNews.com Morning Editor
March 23, 2005

(CNSNews.com) - A new survey shows how the three network evening newscasts (ABC, NBC, CBS) have tilted their recent coverage of the Terri Schiavo case in ways that bolster her husband Michael’s arguments.

At the same time, network reporters have attempted to debunk arguments made by her parents, the Media Research Center (MRC) reported. (The MRC, the parent organization of CNSNews.com, documents liberal bias in the media.)

In a report released Tuesday, MRC said its analysts looked at all 31 evening news stories aired between Thursday, March 17 (when the impending removal of Mrs. Schiavo’s feeding tube put her case back in the news) and Monday, March 21.

The analysis found that a majority of soundbites (59 percent) repudiated Congress for passing a law that allowed Schiavo’s parents, Robert and Mary Schindler, to bring their case to a federal court before their daughter starves to death.

But the condemnations of Congress did not just come from Michael Schiavo and Democrats; some reporters joined in the castigations.

Did you even think that perhaps Michael Schiavo gave it 6 years for Terri to have some kind of recovery? When she didn’t and it was clear by 100-150 doctors who he has said have examined her that she was never going to, that then he made the decision to follow her wishes?

I want to know one person on this board who would honestly want to be kept alive after 15 years in Terri’s condition.

For those of you who want to know what it hurts to keep her alive under her parents care:

  1. Her legal guardian says she didn’t want that.

  2. She’s not some piece of meat to be kept around for her parent’s amusement or comfort or whatever. What happens if and when her parents and/or siblings die? Is it time to kill Terri then?

  3. I’ve had to euthanize pets in better condition than Terri. Most sane people would say that was humane. If I had treated my pets the way Terri’s parent want her to be treated, I’d be arrested for animal cruelty.

I don’t think 15 years of vegetative nothingness is a rush to kill Terri. Newsflash, she’s never coming back. For you religious folks, wouldn’t you rather her soul be free and have her be with God? If you really believe in God, than you must believe Heaven would be a better place for Terri than confined to the “vessel” she’s in now.

Let the woman finally rest in peace.

Joe Weider - In answer to your question as to whether she is in a PVS, read the guardian ad litem’s report. It said that a CT showed that her cerebral cortex was liquified. That’s very conclusive. No cerebral cortex = no higher brain functions. And it won’t grow back; that’s impossible.

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
Joe Weider - In answer to your question as to whether she is in a PVS, read the guardian ad litem’s report. It said that a CT showed that her cerebral cortex was liquified. That’s very conclusive. No cerebral cortex = no higher brain functions. And it won’t grow back; that’s impossible.[/quote]

yes, but other doctors–and I can post the article–have said that without the MRI and PET scan the CT is worthless.
Hey, I don’t claim to have all the answers or even any answers. I just read what I can and try and cover all the bases, ya know?

I just found this – very interesting interview with Robert George on the overarching ethical principles that are involved here – I’ll note I disagree somewhat with his legal analysis at the end:

http://www.nationalreview.com/interrogatory/george200503211140.asp

March 21, 2005, 11:40 a.m.
?Always to Care, Never to Kill?
Terri Schiavo and the right to life.

Q&A by NRO Staff

National Review Online recently had a chance to talk to Robert P. George, the McCormick professor of jurisprudence at Princeton University and a member of the President’s Council on Bioethics, about the Terri Schiavo case and the broader issue of assisted suicide. Professor George has published widely on law, ethics, and philosophy in books, scholarly journals, and, too rarely, in articles for NRO. He previously served as a presidential appointee to the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights.

National Review Online: How should we go about thinking about the circumstances under which it is morally permissible to refuse medical treatment? What principles ought to guide us?

Robert P. George: From a moral vantage point, it can be, though it will not always be, permissible to decline treatment ? even potentially life-saving treatment ? when one’s reason for declining the treatment is something other than the belief that one’s life, or the life of the person for whom one is making a decision, lacks sufficient value to be worth living. What we must avoid, always and everywhere, is yielding to the temptation to regard some human lives, or the lives of human beings in certain conditions, as lebensunwerten Lebens, lives unworthy of life. Since the life of every human being has inherent worth and dignity, there is no valid category of lebensunwerten Lebens. Any society that supposes that there is such a category has deeply morally compromised itself. As Leon Kass recently reminded us in a powerful address at the Holocaust Museum, it was supposedly enlightened and progressive German academics and medical people who put their nation on the road to shame more than a decade before the Nazis rose to power by promoting a doctrine of eugenics based precisely on the proposition that the lives of some human beings ? such as the severely retarded ? are unworthy of life.

NRO: Just to provide greater clarity to the principle, could you explain how it applies to the cases of the killing of enemy combatants in wartime and of the death penalty?

George: Sure. Killing in war ? assuming that it is not a genocidal war ? is not done on the ground that enemy soldiers have lives unworthy of life. Where a war is just, the killing of combatants on the field of battle is done in self-defense or in the defense of innocent third parties who are victims, or potential victims, of an unjust aggressor. Even where a war is unjust, the reason for killing is typically something like expanding a nation’s borders, gaining wealth, or avenging a perceived historical wrong. The exception again is a genocidal war, where members of certain groups are targeted for extermination because their enemies regard them as unfit to live. The Nazis killed ? murdered ? thousands of handicapped people and millions of Jews precisely because they regarded them as unfit to live. German soldiers ? some of whom were Nazis, some of whom weren’t ? killed hundreds of thousands of British and American soldiers in battle, not because they regarded them as lebensunwerten Lebens, but in the cause of territorial expansion and world domination.

Now let’s consider the death penalty. Its supporters typically do not claim that the death-row inmate has a life unworthy of life. That isn’t their justification for capital punishment. Their claim, rather, is that the individual convicted of a capital murder should be executed because that is what justice requires as payment for his heinous crime. Their justification for the death penalty is retributive. (Of course, they may also believe that the application of the death penalty will prevent the murderer in question from repeating his crimes and perhaps also deter others.) They may fully recognize the inherent dignity and value of every human life, including the life of the murderer himself, yet believe that by wantonly taking the life of another human being the murderer has forfeited his own right to life. Some supporters of the application of the death penalty in the case of Karla Faye Tucker acknowledged that she had repented of her crime and reformed herself. They certainly did not regard her as unfit to live. Indeed, they believed that, if spared, she would probably devote her life to good causes. Yet they believed that retributive justice demanded her execution.

Of course, opponents of the death penalty, such as the pope, say that a due respect for the inherent worth and dignity of every human life, including the life of a murderer, forbids the death penalty except in circumstances in which it is the only way to prevent a particular murder from killing yet again. But the dispute between its supporters (in most cases) and opponents is about the moral implications of the principle that human worth and dignity are inherent. It is not a dispute about whether the principle is valid and ought to govern our deliberation about when, if ever, killing is morally permissible.

NRO: To what extent do these principles depend on sectarian religious belief?

George: Not at all. At the same time, they are in harmony with the teachings of the Jewish and Christian traditions. These traditions proclaim the inherent worth and dignity of every human being as a creature made in the very image of God ? imago dei. In our own culture, the Catholic Church has played a leading, albeit far from exclusive, role in defending these principles when they have come under attack by proponents of abortion and euthanasia. But the Church herself has not put these ideas forward as matters of special revelation. The Church’s own teaching is that they are matters of natural law that all people of good will can understand and for which every mature individual in possession of his faculties can be held responsible. They’re knowable by the light or reason and conscience even apart from the teaching of the Bible or the magisterium of the Church.

NRO: What’s the role for public authority in enforcing these norms?

George: First, it is to ensure that no laws are premised on the proposition that some lives are lebensunwerten Leben. And not only must public authorities refrain from acting on any such premise, they should protect people from being victimized by other individuals, or by institutions, who would treat some lives as unworthy of life.

The police always have the right and, where it is within their power, the duty to prevent suicide ? except now in Oregon under certain circumstances. Even where attempted suicide is not punished as a crime, it is decriminalized rather than, strictly speaking, legalized. It is not given the status of a legal right, except again in Oregon. When the police find a guy perched at the edge of a bridge getting ready to jump, their job is to stop him and prevent him from going through with it if they can. They are not merely supposed to try to ascertain whether he has carefully thought things through and made a rational decision to do away with himself, or if he’s in a fit mental state to decide. They are supposed to prevent the suicide because the law refuses to honor even a person’s own judgment that his is a life unworthy of life.

NRO: Back to the question of declining medical care ?

George: We know of course that there are lots of legitimate reasons for declining medical care. Often it’s burdensome in nature; often it interferes with other opportunities that one might have, the opportunity for example to spend the remaining time one has, even if it will be shorter, in the embrace of one’s family in the home rather than in an institution; sometimes it’s the daunting expense that is involved. These can be morally legitimate reasons for declining medical care even where treatment could extend life a bit. But at the same time, we know that our decision as a society to recognize a right to refuse treatment, though it is the morally and prudentially correct decision in my view, will open certain limited opportunities for abuse. There will be circumstances in which people who want to do away with themselves will be able to accomplish the goal by exercising the right to decline life-saving medical care. And there will, alas, be circumstances in which some people, exercising so-called substituted judgment, make unjustified “choices for death” ? to use the language of euthanasia advocate Ronald Dworkin ? of people for whom they are supposed to be caring.

It is important to see, however, that the law does not validate such choices. It treats abuses as unfortunate but unavoidable side-effects that must be tolerated and cannot prudently be eliminated without sacrificing important values and objectives. There is nothing odd about this. In many areas of law, possible abuses must be tolerated as side effects of honoring important values. We know, for example, that some criminals and their attorneys will abuse the procedural protections that our society affords to persons accused of crimes to escape just punishment. Yet we rightly consider certain protections to be essential to the system of justice.

Now this, by the way, the Supreme Court actually managed to recognize in the assisted-suicide cases, when the justices unanimously rejected a right to assisted suicide while at the same time accepting the traditional common-law understanding that people have a right to decline even potentially life saving medical treatments. What the Court said is you can’t deny people pain-killing narcotics even if a side-effect of the pain-killing narcotics is the shortening of life. That’s entirely consistent with the moral norms I am explaining and defending, and which the Judaeo-Christian tradition endorses.

NRO: As you know, there’s some question about what Terri Schiavo’s wishes were or would be now. How much should turn on this question?

George: It is the wrong question. It is pointless to ask whether Terri Schiavo had somehow formed a conditional intention to have herself starved to death if eventually she found herself in a brain-damaged condition. What’s really going on here ? and I don’t think we can afford to kid ourselves about this ? is that Terri’s husband has decided that hers is a life not worth having. In his opinion, her continued existence is nothing but a burden ? a burden to herself, to him, to society. He has presumed to decide that his wife is better off dead.

Even if we were to credit Michael Schiavo’s account of his conversation with Terri before her injury ? which I am not inclined to do ? it is a mistake to assume that people can make decisions in advance about whether to have themselves starved to death if they eventually find themselves disabled. That’s why living wills have proven to be so often unreliable. One does not know how one will actually feel, or how one will feel about one’s life and the prospect of death, or whether one will retain a desire to live despite a mental or physical disability, when one is not actually in that condition and when one is envisaging it from the perspective of more or less robust health.

Consider the case of a beautiful young woman ? an actress or fashion model perhaps ? who is severely burned in a fire. Prior to actually finding herself in such a condition, she might have supposed ? and even said, if the subject had come up in a conversation ? that she would rather be dead than live with her face grotesquely disfigured. But no one would be surprised if in the actual event she did not try to kill herself by starvation or some other means, and did not want to die.

In any event, it is clear that the only reason for Michael Schiavo’s decision is that he considers Terri’s quality of life to be so poor that he wants her to be dead. He claims that she would want that too, which I don’t grant, but even if he’s right about that, we should treat her like anyone else who wants to commit suicide. We rescue, we care. We affirm the inherent value of the life of every human being. Our governing principle should be always to care, never to kill.

NRO: What are the proper limits of the federal government’s authority here?

George: I don’t see that any just authority of the state of Florida is being displaced by the effort of Congress to ensure that Terri’s right to life is honored and that civil rights claims on her behalf are given a hearing in the federal courts. By “just authority of the state of Florida,” I mean the authority of the people of Florida to make laws through their elected representatives, subject to the provisions of the state constitution and the Constitution of the United States. I am not impressed by appeals to “federalism” to protect the decisions of state court judges who usurp the authority of democratically constituted state legislative bodies by interpreting statutes beyond recognition or by invalidating state laws or the actions of state officials in the absence of any remotely plausible argument rooted in the text, logic, structure, or historical understanding of the state or federal constitution. The fact is that, under color of law, Michael Schiavo is seeking to deprive Terri of sustenance because of her disability. Under federal civil-rights statutes, this raises a substantial issue. It cannot be waved away by invoking states’ rights.

The federalism argument is more plausible in the case of Oregon’s assisted-suicide law than it is in Terri Schiavo’s case. It wasn’t some judge in Oregon who manufactured a right to assisted suicide or claimed to find it hiding in a penumbra. I think the people of Oregon made an unwise, indeed, tragic, decision, but it was a decision made by the democratically constituted people of Oregon. Whether or not there are legitimate grounds for the federal government to override that decision, the federalism argument for not overriding it is far weightier and more serious than it is when trotted out as a reason to keep Congress from acting to prevent Terri Schiavo’s being starved to death at the command of her husband.

The other thing that Congress is being accused of is interfering in a family decision. Now look: Terri Schiavo has been abandoned by her husband. Michael Schiavo took a vow to be faithful to Terri “in sickness and in health, forsaking all others, 'til death do us part.” But he has not been faithful; he has not forsaken all others. He has set himself up in a marriage in all-but-name with someone else, a woman with whom he already has two children. He has disrespected Terri and, indeed, forsaken her. Now he is seeking to bring about her death by starvation. Notice something wrong with this picture? Terri’s parents and siblings, by contrast, have never abandoned her. They are prepared to shoulder all the burdens, including the financial burdens, of caring for her. They want to provide the therapy that many medical people who have observed Terri, whether at the bedside or by videotape, believe can help her. No one expects a full recovery, but it may be possible for her to make genuine progress. That possibility will be foreclosed, however, if she is killed by deliberate starvation before it can begin

Also, here’s some legal analyses from Andrew McCarthy, a former federal prosecutor:

http://www.nationalreview.com/thecorner/05_03_20_corner-archive.asp#059050

RE: ABANDONED TO RHETORIC [Andy McCarthy]
John, I have resisted getting into this with you because I have enormous respect for you, I don’t think your position is unreasonable (I just don’t buy it), and I sense I have already burdened people enough with my views about this case – they can decide at this point for themselves. But I don’t believe I have abandoned myself to rhetoric. I have committed myself to logic.

First of all, I do not doubt the propriety of the people of Florida governing themselves, or that they may deny sustenance to a person who (a) actually is in a PVS and (b) actually has asserted in a knowing and intelligent way a rejection of life saving measures in certain dire circumstances. What I object to here is the appallingly suspect evidentiary record on these two crucial questions – especially on PVS, where it seems indisputable that fairly standard tests, which would be easy to do in relatively short order and which could give us confidence in the PVS finding, have not been done. If we can be confident that Terri is a PVS case – and particularly that her brain damage has left her largely insensitive to pain – I seal my lips and accept the outcome, however much I may question its wisdom insofar as society’s general regard for life is concerned. Under such circumstances, the Supreme Court has said sustenance may be withheld, and the absence of pain would destroy my contention that she is being tortured.

I am not interested in attacking the motives of Michael Schiavo (something that seems to be of importance to you) unless the evidence against him becomes more reliable than it is now – although I do believe his incentives are highly relevant on the question whether Terri actually evinced a desire not to have life sustaining measures because he is the primary witness on that score. But I must say that on this score it has seemed to me, reading your exchanges with others, that it is you who is abandoned to rhetoric. Much as I instinctively agree with you that a spouse should be given great deference in these matters (and as I would try to ensure that my own wife had a free hand in making them for me), the law is that it is not the spouse’s decision. It is the individual’s decision, and it cannot be removed from the individual because you decide that in your own life you would not want intrusion into what you regard as your affairs. My view is that the proof that Terri actually made this election is highly suspect. (It is worth noting that a court, for example, is not permitted to allow something so comparatively inconsequential as a confession into evidence in a criminal case without clear and convincing evidence that the defendant’s waiver of the Fifth Amendment privilege was knowing and intelligent.) I would like to see the issue fully reviewed by an impartial federal court (as I believe there is great reason to question the impartiality of the judicial proceeding in Florida). Again, if after a full and fair hearing the federal court determines that Michael is credible and Terri did make this assertion, I have nothing to complain about. As the Supreme Court’s Cruzan case indicates, the proof in this regard need not be inarguable, but it does have to be credible.

The argument is here is about analogous methods of denying sustenance, let’s say starving/dehydrating versus suffocating (instead of shooting), aimed actually at achieving the same end: death by court order. My point is, if the person is non-PVS and aware of pain, both are forms of cold-blooded murder. The only meaningful difference is one is slow, less blatant, and designed to be less offensive to the spectator (regardless that it may be more painful to the victim), while the other is swifter, colder and more offensive to the spectator. It is not more immoral – just more obviously immoral (even if it is actually more merciful to the victim). If your point here is that the latter is unacceptable but the former is OK for no better reason than that you and some polled majority of some cross-section of the population thinks so, I don’t think that’s very principled.
Posted at 11:19 AM

Here’s Andrew McCarthy’s legal analysis of the 11th Circuit panel decision this morning – I have not heard of the “All Writs Act” argument from any other source, and I’ve been watching a lot of news. My first impression is to be skeptical of the use of habeus corpus power outside the criminal context, but I want to look into it more.

http://www.nationalreview.com/mccarthy/mccarthy.asp

March 23, 2005, 10:15 a.m.
Another Loss, But a Glimmer of Hope
A divided Eleventh Circuit panel declines to reinsert the feeding tube.

Early Wednesday morning, a divided three-judge panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit in Georgia declined to reverse Tuesday?s district court order refusing to reinsert Terri Schiavo?s feeding tube.

This appellate ruling further increases the likelihood that Terri, who is now well into her fifth day of state-court-ordered starvation and dehydration, will die before her case can receive the full federal court review prescribed by an emergency law passed by congress and signed by the president in the wee hours of Monday morning. Nevertheless, the Eleventh Circuit has produced the first glimmer of hope for those fighting for Terri?s life: a masterful dissent by Circuit Judge Charles R. Wilson. As the case moves on to higher tribunals, Judge Wilson has charted a ready and persuasive roadmap for overturning the mind-numbing decisions that would let a defenseless, brain-damaged woman wither and die without ever having her day in federal court ? the day that congress and President Bush plainly intended to give her.
The majority, comprised of Judges Edward Earl Carnes (appointed by President George H. W. Bush in 1992) and Frank M. Hull (appointed by President Clinton in 1997), was exceedingly deferential to District Judge James D. Whittemore, who, in turn, had been exceedingly deferential to state Circuit Court Judge George Greer of Florida. [See here: http://www.nationalreview.com/mccarthy/”http://www.nationalreview.com/mccarthy/mccarthy200503221329.asp” ] Whittemore had rejected a request for a preliminary injunction that would have reinserted Terri?s feeding tube while the case was heard on the merits on the ground that the Schindlers (Terri?s parents and the plaintiffs in her name) had not demonstrated a likelihood of success. To sustain that holding, the Eleventh Circuit majority did not need to find that Whittemore had been wrong but merely that he had not been so careless as to have ?abused his discretion.? To the contrary, they found he had carefully considered the matter and blessed Whittemore?s extremely narrow ? indeed, counter-lingual ? construction of Terri?s Law, enacted Monday morning.

Judge Wilson, a former United States attorney in Florida whom President Clinton appointed to the Eleventh Circuit in 1999, disagreed ? intensely. Principally, he seized on a new issue ? not considered below by Judge Whittemore, but now raised by both the Schindlers and the Bush Justice Department under Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, who intervened by filing a supportive ?Statement of Interest? with the court. That issue is the All Writs Act (28 U.S.C. Sec. 1651).

This act is a special power of courts to issue orders in aid of their own jurisdiction. As Judge Wilson explained, the authority of a court to command that an action (such as the reinsertion of Terri?s feeding tube) be taken under the All Writs Act is significantly different in its purpose from an order having the same effect but issued as a preliminary injunction. In the latter case, the injunction is for the benefit of the litigant, who is thus called on to satisfy the test that requires a demonstration of probable success on the merits. To the contrary, the All Writs Act is for the protection and integrity of proceedings before the public?s courts. It does not allow courts to create jurisdiction, but it does empower them to preserve the jurisdiction they already have by staying the hand of outsiders whose actions could prevent the court from considering issues and bringing litigation to a natural, rather than a forced, conclusion.

Although they recoil at the very notion, it is a fact of constitutional life that judges are essentially supposed to take their marching orders from congress ? which both prescribes laws and defines the jurisdiction of federal courts. Here, Judge Wilson observed, the plain intent of the law Congress passed

[i]is to maintain the status quo by keeping Theresa Schiavo alive until the federal courts have a new and adequate opportunity to consider the constitutional issues raised by Plaintiffs. The entire purpose of the statute was to give the federal courts an opportunity to consider the merits of Plaintiffs? constitutional claims with a fresh set of eyes. Denial of Plaintiffs? petition cuts sharply against that intent, which is evident to me from the language of the statute, as well as the swift and unprecedented manner of its enactment. Theresa Schiavo?s death, which is imminent, effectively ends the litigation without a fair opportunity to fully consider the merits of Plaintiffs? constitutional claims.[/i]

He is, of course, right about that. And in a case where, again and again, it has become clear that terrorists seeking to kill Americans are given a far better deal in our courts than a defenseless woman convicted of no crime, how fitting it is, once again, that we meet the All Writs Act.

The last time the public encountered it was only five months ago, in connection with the al Qaeda terrorists captured on the battlefield, trying to kill American troops, and being held in Guantanamo Bay as unlawful enemy combatants. Notwithstanding that its decision effectively permitted our enemies to use our courts as a weapon in their war against us, the Supreme Court was insistent that those terrorists get their day in federal court, through extraordinary, unprecedented habeas corpus proceedings. The only problem: the habeas corpus statutes do not provide detainees with a right to counsel ? the vast majority of American citizens who file habeas petitions must go it alone. No problem, found U.S. District Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly. On October 20, 2004, she determined that to effectuate their vitally important claims, and make sure they had maximum persuasive force, she would use the All Writs Act as authority to give our terrorist enemies the assistance of counsel?at the expense of the American taxpayer.

By contrast, the Schindlers are not asking the public to foot the bill for their lawyers. They just want what Congress said they should have, and what our courts can?t seem to give al Qaeda fast enough: their day in court. They ask only the opportunity to fully test all of their constitutional claims and all of the suspect findings in Florida before their daughter is starved and dehydrated to death by the order of a court.

The Eleventh Circuit majority did not see it that way. They rejected the All Writs Act as a path to reinserting the tube because they found it was unavailable when other provisions of law (like the preliminary injunction statute) apply ? something that might be news to the judges handling the Gitmo cases purportedly governed by the habeas corpus statutes. But, as Judge Wilson sagely countered, by failing to reinsert the tube:

[i]we virtually guarantee that the merits of Plaintiffs? claims will never be litigated in federal court. That outcome would not only result in manifest injustice, but it would thwart Congress?s clearly expressed command that Plaintiffs? claims be given de novo review by a federal court.[/i]

Judge Wilson also disputed his colleagues? conclusion that the Schindlers could not succeed on the merits ? the finding on which the refusal to grant the injunction on ordinary grounds was based. Particularly when the irreparable finality of death looms, he argued, a party seeking an injunction need not ?establish that he can hit a home run, only that he can get on base, with a possibility of scoring later.? Here, Terri?s parents have raised significant due process issues: the fairness and impartiality of the state trial, the fact that Terri did not have independent counsel, the denial of equal protection, and unjustified burdens on her free exercise of religion. Again, it was the manifest purport of Terri?s Law that these claims be fully and carefully considered in the federal courts before Terri?s death could be brought about by a state legal process.

The case now proceeds on two probable tracks: an appeal to the entire Eleventh Circuit sitting en banc, and an application to Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy (the Circuit Justice for the Eleventh Circuit) for an emergency stay with a reinsertion of the feeding tube. Judge Wilson has given them a compass.

Meanwhile, Terri has been starving and dehydrating for over 110 hours.

? Andrew C. McCarthy, who led the 1995 terrorism prosecution against Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and eleven others, is a senior fellow at the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies.

One more, on the other side. This takes up the position I took intitially, which is critical of Congress for injecting itself in what is in my mind a non-federal issue. The previous analyses by McCarthy focused on the law Congress passed, not on the authority of Congress to pass that law:

Federalism Has a Right to Life, Too
By CHARLES FRIED

Published: March 23, 2005

Cambridge, Mass. ? IN their intervention in the Terri Schiavo matter, Republicans in Congress and President Bush have, in a few brief legislative clauses, embraced the kind of free-floating judicial activism, disregard for orderly procedure and contempt for the integrity of state processes that they quite rightly have denounced and sought to discipline for decades.

On the substance, the law passed by Congress on Monday called for a federal court to decide whether Ms. Schiavo’s constitutional rights had been violated at the state level. In this regard, it is worth quoting at length from a concurring opinion by Antonin Scalia, the president’s favorite Supreme Court justice and occasionally my own as well, in a 1990 case from the Missouri courts involving precisely the same issues.

“The various opinions in this case portray quite clearly the difficult, indeed agonizing, questions that are presented by the constantly increasing power of science to keep the human body alive for longer than any reasonable person would want to inhabit it,” Justice Scalia wrote. “The states have begun to grapple with these problems through legislation. I am concerned, from the tenor of today’s opinions, that we are poised to confuse that enterprise as successfully as we have confused the enterprise of legislating concerning abortion - requiring it to be conducted against a background of federal constitutional imperatives that are unknown because they are being newly crafted from term to term. That would be a great misfortune.”

Justice Scalia went on to say that he would have preferred that the court had announced, “clearly and promptly, that the federal courts have no business in this field.” The problem, he insisted, was that “the point at which life becomes ‘worthless,’ and the point at which the means necessary to preserve it become ‘extraordinary’ or ‘inappropriate,’ are neither set forth in the Constitution nor known to the nine justices of this court any better than they are known to nine people picked at random from the Kansas City telephone directory.”

Congress’s intervention in the Schiavo case is equally mischievous. It demanded that a federal court decide this issue without giving any deference to state law or the previous course of state court proceedings. This is exactly the sort of episodic federal intervention without regard for the integrity of state processes that plagued death penalty cases for years, and that Congress moved to end when it passed the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996. And the real possibility now of the case bouncing back and forth between the federal district court and the federal appeals court, and maybe even back to state court, is just what Congress tried to shut down in death penalty cases.

For years now, Congress has more and more stringently demanded that federal court intervention be limited to cases where the state courts have acted not just technically incorrectly, but with egregious lack of reason. Whatever might be said of the Florida state court proceedings in this case, they certainly have not crossed that line, and indeed probably accord with what state courts all over the country have ordered or permitted for years in these difficult and agonizing cases.

Finally, the law passed by Congress on Monday was an obvious attempt - under the pretense of allowing the determination of federal constitutional rights - to delay the outcome decreed by Florida state law with the hope of making that outcome impossible. That is precisely the worrisome tactic employed with increasingly imaginative stays and orders of re-litigation in a number of federal courts, most noticeably the Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, which covers nine Western states. And it is also precisely the sort of tactic that Congress sought to discipline in the Effective Death Penalty Act.

It is no good for politicians to try to justify this absurd departure from principles of federalism and respect for sound and orderly judicial administration by saying that, in this case, the life at stake is unquestionably innocent. For in many of the death penalty cases, the claim has also been that the prisoner had at least unfairly, and perhaps even incorrectly, been condemned to death.

What we have is many of the the same political leaders who denounced the Supreme Court’s decision forbidding states from executing those who committed their crimes as juveniles now feel free to parachute in on a case that had been within a state court’s purview for 15 years.

Charles Fried, a professor at Harvard Law School, was solicitor general of the United States under President Ronald Reagan.

Thanks BB. I was thinking about posting those, but thought someone might take my computer privileges away!

It is somewhat ironic that the pro life brigade seemingly have come into put their ha’pennys worth into this arena.

Is it the case (correct if wrong) that this group are on the whole religious. Surely, if that were the case, they belive in some kind of afterlife, where her pain and suffering would be at an end, and therefore should be in favour of her passing?

Either way, there is little or no evidence of higher brain function, the “theory of mind” which can be substantiated experimentally (they do it on 3 month old babies) has either not been performed, will not be performed or has been performed and failed.

These experiments qualify the degree of brain developmeny in infants, and correspond to the level of “intelligence and conciousness”.

Without these, there is nothing, just a sympathetic/parasympathetic machine that responds and does not interact with the surrounding environment.

Sod stopping feeding, assisted death would be the most humane method of death. Noone would allow an animal to suffer in that way.

She has had children, passed on her genes and they will hopefully go on to have their own. The longer this goes on the more tradgic it becomes. the courts have passed the buck somewhat, but by no means is that a bad thing, as in my opinion the only possible course has been set upon, and hopefully this will be the last that family will have to go through, for good or for bad.

[quote]miniross wrote:
IShe has had children, passed on her genes and they will hopefully go on to have their own. The longer this goes on the more tradgic it becomes. the courts have passed the buck somewhat, but by no means is that a bad thing, as in my opinion the only possible course has been set upon, and hopefully this will be the last that family will have to go through, for good or for bad.[/quote]

she never had children.
Drink much?

good link regarding the kookiness of doctors working for Terri’s parents including Joe Weider’s main man:
http://www.miami.edu/ethics/schiavo/Nov22%202002%20TC%20%20trialctorder11-02.txt
and one that discredits another Weider favorite, the lady who lied about terri’s husband (When is she going to die?):

both are court findings.

This week I was reminded that there was ANOTHER group that irritates me with their grandstanding ALMOST as much as Politicians…

Famous Actors and Actresses…

I should have known they would be lurking around the corner! Usually they start BEFORE the Politicians!

Go figure…!

Mufasa

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
This week I was reminded that there was ANOTHER group that irritates me with their grandstanding ALMOST as much as Politicians…

Famous Actors and Actresses…

I should have known they would be lurking around the corner! Usually they start BEFORE the Politicians!

Go figure…!

Mufasa[/quote]

Amen.

It’s not that they have no right to speak – it’s that their opinions are generally uninformed and otherwise worthless.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
It’s not that they have no right to speak – it’s that their opinions are generally uninformed and otherwise worthless.[/quote]

Of course it goes without saying that what you say is true with the exception of Babs Streisand. I can but mention her name and I get all verklemphed.

I see that Tom Delay said that Terri Schiavo was sent by God to help the conservative cause. What an ass-clown.

[quote]deanosumo wrote:
I see that Tom Delay said that Terri Schiavo was sent by God to help the conservative cause. What an ass-clown.[/quote]

Time will tell about that. I’m not denying that was an inappropriate thing to say, but I wouldn’t dismiss it out-of-hand.