Terri Schiavo: More Grandstanding

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
When death will not occur soon, or perhaps for many years, and when there is a chance, even a very small one, that recovery is possible, people who authorize the withdrawal of life support are playing God.[/quote]

BB,
Don’t take this as a bash towards you since I love almost all of your replies (in other threads), but we have been playing God for quite sometime. Woman can now choose their sperm at a sperm bank so they can possibly have a kid with a high IQ, strong build, etc., there are pills where the chances of having twins greatly increase. Those are just a few examples off the top of my head. Don’t you think God would want her with him instead of her on earth? Up there, she will be all better.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Moon Knight wrote:

Yes, why won’t he let her parents take over? Why not take the money offered, and/or divource her, and just get out of it? Why the desire to “see her die” no matter what?

“Illogical” isn’t it? The only logical conclusion that I can draw from this, and the simplest conclusion that noone seems to want to accept is that perhaps this guy is telling the truth, that his wife wanted to be let go and not suffer life as a veggie.

THis is an excerpt from the article I posted – I think it’s a fair guess:

These differences are of decisive importance. When death will occur soon and inevitably, the patient does not starve to death when life support ends. Since there was no chance of our mother living more than a few more days, what my sister and I did could not be called murder. When death will not occur soon, or perhaps for many years, and when there is a chance, even a very small one, that recovery is possible, people who authorize the withdrawal of life support are playing God.

And in Terri’s case, they are playing God when they do not have to. Her parents have begged to become her guardians. Her husband has refused. We do not know for certain why the husband has refused. I doubt that he wishes to receive for himself the money that still exists from her insurance settlement and, apparently, he has offered to donate that money to charity. Perhaps, being a Catholic, he would like her death to make him free to marry the woman with whom he is now living. Or perhaps (and I think this is the most likely case) he does not want his wife to live what strikes him as an intolerable life.[/quote]

Uhmm…B.B.

the law in texas would allow doctors to remove the feeding tube from people like terri even if their cerebral cortex hadn’t turned to liquid, and secondly there’s no difference, Terri wouldn’t otherwise live if the feeding tube was removed!

I think that article is right, Micheal is dealing with the fact that his wife is really not here anymore, she’s dead in that the thing that made Terri be Terri has disappeared. Terri the person, the human being, is gone forever. Yet, Terri the body still remains. It must be amazingly hard.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Prove this statement. Prove that this man said what you just wrote that he did.

This is a marriage. In this case, his views stand as her opinion…or at least they should. I want you to prove how evil he is. Being with another woman when your wife is in a vegetative state with no medical hope for recovery isn’t exactly evil. The fact that he won’t divorce her should speak louder than anything you just wrote.
[/quote]

He abandoned her 6 years ago - by moving in with another woman and having two kids with her.

He won’t allow her to be fed in any manner other than the feeding tube when she can be fed normally.

He won’t allow anyone to even attempt rehab, and there are at least 30 doctors that believe she is rehabable to a point.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Prove this statement. Prove that this man said what you just wrote that he did.

This is a marriage. In this case, his views stand as her opinion…or at least they should. I want you to prove how evil he is. Being with another woman when your wife is in a vegetative state with no medical hope for recovery isn’t exactly evil. The fact that he won’t divorce her should speak louder than anything you just wrote.
[/quote]

It’s all over the news, and there have been several affidavits filed. For once, why don’t you do some of your own research instead of constantly challenging the veracity of everyone else?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Prove this statement. Prove that this man said what you just wrote that he did.

This is a marriage. In this case, his views stand as her opinion…or at least they should. I want you to prove how evil he is. Being with another woman when your wife is in a vegetative state with no medical hope for recovery isn’t exactly evil. The fact that he won’t divorce her should speak louder than anything you just wrote.
[/quote]

http://www.terrisfight.org/documents/CIyerAffidavit090203.htm

[quote]Joe Weider wrote:
http://libertytothecaptives.net/hammesfahr_dr._report.html

dr. hammesfahr was nominated for a nobel prize for his work in rehabbing people like Terri. He thinks she’s fine. He spent ten hours with her. He says she can in fact eat and swallow, the only reason she’s been forced to be on the tube is because the husband has insisted.
That way, he can pull it and kill her.
[/quote]

I don’t know if you know this, but peristalsis is a natural reaction that requires no higher brain function. It simply happens subconsciously. Do you know what that is? It is when food is introduced into the throat and the wave action of smooth muscle pushes it downward. That doesn’t mean she has higher brain function and the simple fact that a doctor is passing that off as a reason for improvement makes this even more suspect.

I also looked at the sight you posted and they describe her opening her eyes when a doctor said “open your eyes”. Unless she can now close her eyes and reopen them on command, that is called coincidence. That site is quite possibly one of the most biased compilations of data I ever read.

So, wait…liberals are now running about saying that the husband is in charge of the wife?
You mean we’ve just stood 50 years of women’s lib on it’s head just to kill this one poor woman?

You people are exposing yourselves as the pathetic two faced weasels I’ve always believed you were.

[quote]iscariot wrote:

The liberals have no respect for the unborn, why should anyone now respect someone who is simply injured with only a small chance of any sort of recovery. Did you ever notice how one thing leads to another? It’s a slippery slope that we now travel…yep.

What do Liberals have to do with this?

Actually, who are “The Liberals” sounds to me like one of those shadowy organsiations like the Illuminati or the Zionist Conspiracy…

Oh, that’s right, I forgot that in ZEB land ALL Liberals support abortion…and therefore want to kill this woman even though it isn’t a Liberal vs Conservative issue…

Better watch out ZEB, the Vatican’s coming to talke away your copy of The Da Vinci Code… [/quote]

Wow, that was one of your nuttier posts, and that’s saying a lot considering your other posts!

My point is (since you couldn’t grasp it) that once the sanctity of life (as rainjack brought up) is violated, which it was by abortion then where do we stop?

Since abortion is backed by liberals (they won’t even let a pro lifer speak at thier convention) then the “slippery slope” of disrespecting life was indeed begun by liberals. I never stated that the Judge, or any other party to the Schiavo case is a liberal.

Do they have classes for remedial reading in “Iscariot land?”

:slight_smile:

I think Terri should be declared an enemy combatant, then the deathmongers will change their stance and fight for her life as well.

[quote]rainjack wrote:

He abandoned her 6 years ago - by moving in with another woman and having two kids with her.

He won’t allow her to be fed in any manner other than the feeding tube when she can be fed normally.

He won’t allow anyone to even attempt rehab, and there are at least 30 doctors that believe she is rehabable to a point.

[/quote]

How 'bout he moved on with his life? Why abandoned? I do wonder about the feeding tube, but who are these doctors that feel she is rehabable? Have they actually examined her or dealt with her? What point is she rehabable to?

[quote]Joe Weider wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Prove this statement. Prove that this man said what you just wrote that he did.

This is a marriage. In this case, his views stand as her opinion…or at least they should. I want you to prove how evil he is. Being with another woman when your wife is in a vegetative state with no medical hope for recovery isn’t exactly evil. The fact that he won’t divorce her should speak louder than anything you just wrote.

It’s all over the news, and there have been several affidavits filed. For once, why don’t you do some of your own research instead of constantly challenging the veracity of everyone else?
[/quote]

That would mean he would have to work instead of simply blurting out opinion. Let’s face it, it’s more fun to “blurt” than to “work.”

Would any of you fighting to keep the tube in Terri truly want to live in her condition?

If not, and you told your spouse you didn’t want to live like that, would you prefer the government keep you alive against your wishes?

Even if you didn’t say so expressly to your spouse, wouldn’t you rather your spouse was in charge of your will being? If not, why did you marry your spouse? Don’t they have your best interests at heart?

We treat animals more humanely than Terri. Any beloved pet in Terri’s condition would have been euthanized 15 years ago.

The reason Terri has to be “starved” is we are not progressive enough to allow her to be let go humanely and euthanize her.

[quote]chadman wrote:
Would any of you fighting to keep the tube in Terri truly want to live in her condition?

If not, and you told your spouse you didn’t want to live like that, would you prefer the government keep you alive against your wishes?

Even if you didn’t say so expressly to your spouse, wouldn’t you rather your spouse was in charge of your will being? If not, why did you marry your spouse? Don’t they have your best interests at heart?

[/quote]

Since he’s repeatedly said things like “is the bitch dead yet” and since he’s got a new whore and bastard kids, I hardly think he’s got her best interests at heart.
There’s also the matter of the broken bones that showed up on the bone scan, and the ligature marks around her neck when she was first admitted to the hospital 15 years ago.

[quote]Joe Weider wrote:
chadman wrote:
Would any of you fighting to keep the tube in Terri truly want to live in her condition?

If not, and you told your spouse you didn’t want to live like that, would you prefer the government keep you alive against your wishes?

Even if you didn’t say so expressly to your spouse, wouldn’t you rather your spouse was in charge of your will being? If not, why did you marry your spouse? Don’t they have your best interests at heart?

Since he’s repeatedly said things like “is the bitch dead yet” and since he’s got a new whore and bastard kids, I hardly think he’s got her best interests at heart.
There’s also the matter of the broken bones that showed up on the bone scan, and the ligature marks around her neck when she was first admitted to the hospital 15 years ago.[/quote]

You still didn’t mention if you would want to live in Terri’s condition. And why is moving on with a new life a bad thing when your wife is a vegetable? I’ll bet you pious bastards would be doing the same thing if you were in that situation.

If you are insinuating spousal abuse, why has Mr. Schiavo never been charged, let alone convicted of it?

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
When death will not occur soon, or perhaps for many years, and when there is a chance, even a very small one, that recovery is possible, people who authorize the withdrawal of life support are playing God.

HouseOfAtlas wrote:

BB,
Don’t take this as a bash towards you since I love almost all of your replies (in other threads), but we have been playing God for quite sometime. Woman can now choose their sperm at a sperm bank so they can possibly have a kid with a high IQ, strong build, etc., there are pills where the chances of having twins greatly increase. Those are just a few examples off the top of my head. Don’t you think God would want her with him instead of her on earth? Up there, she will be all better.[/quote]

Don’t worry, I won’t take it as a bash. It’s an interesting ethical dilemma.

The quote about “playing God” was from James Q. Wilson.

I tend to agree with him though, simply because in this case we are not doing anything to keep this woman alive other than feeding her and giving her liquids. It’s not as if her life is being prolonged by high-tech machines without which she could not survive. Her brain is functioning at some level.

So the decision here is to quit feeding and sustaining her and to kill her via dehydration. A decision to kill someone is what he is invoking with the “playing God” quote. We’re seemingly comfortable doing this in a punishment context, but I am much more worried when we start making “quality of life” decisions.

That’s a big moral quandry to me.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
So the decision here is to quit feeding and sustaining her and to kill her via dehydration. A decision to kill someone is what he is invoking with the “playing God” quote. We’re seemingly comfortable doing this in a punishment context, but I am much more worried when we start making “quality of life” decisions.

That’s a big moral quandry to me.[/quote]

why? Serious question. Is it just the battle between the death penalty and this? Or something else?
Because, personally I still don’t know where I stand on the death penalty, and I’ve been wrasslin’ with it seriously for 10 or 15 years. Every time I make up my mind, something new comes along.

[quote]Joe Weider wrote:
Since he’s repeatedly said things like “is the bitch dead yet” and since he’s got a new whore and bastard kids, I hardly think he’s got her best interests at heart.
There’s also the matter of the broken bones that showed up on the bone scan, and the ligature marks around her neck when she was first admitted to the hospital 15 years ago.[/quote]

?

At some points Joe Weider, you seem to say what you “feel” first, and then you spend the rest of a debate or conversation trying to rationalize the irrational things you said, which is not quiet easy without the use of some state of the art bullshitting. :wink:

How do you know this guys new partner is a “whore” and “creating bastard children”, what do the children have to do with this, aren’t they beyond your one worded judgement as of yet? Then your post ends with the highly debatable thin-sheet of evidence that even you know is pretty “out-there” so you said it more quietly, the supposed abuse part.

I don’t see why this keeps coming back to simply being a pulpit for some of you to spew your political views and only such. The article I posted wasn’t meant to politicized my opinion (didn’t agree with all of the article) of this, I thought that by page 5 people would start looking at this as a singular case, and not a means to throw in your “Well the same guys who wanted to murder Terri are the ones who want us to treat our prisoners of war nicely.”, Who gives a shit about that? How about the topic.

What seems to be proven to a certain degree is this issue seems to have been exploited in the political realm, and it even seems the reminence of Terri Schiavo have been exploited when it becomes a coveted “morally” pressed reasons, which is a thin vail of bullshit from most, that is behind her. Her name has become more of a icon and less of a person. Some of the posts here were really good, especially those who decided to look at it not as a simple political issue, but what they would do and just why.

Is her Husband that horrible of a human being, or is making him look like one simply more ammo. The question of his character will inevitably come up, but you Joe go from Point A to Point Z without trulying having anything conclusive inbetween. But hey, I have a hard time understanding how the majority of thought processes in this country are simply conservative or Liberal, sheep being herded is what it sounds like to me, but wait…this isn’t a political only discussion, right? :wink:

Has anyone looked at the science of this situation (not the BS Emotional Science) and has a somewhat loose knowledge of neurology, and still believes this woman isn’t in a vegetable state? Why?

O. Carter Snead, who is general counsel for the Council on Bioethics and has previously written about the Schiavo case e-mails (Note: His comments are his own and don?t reflect the views of the council, which has varying views on varying things:
The state of Florida, through its judiciary, has ordered the termination of Terri Schiavo’s life. This is an interest clearly protected by the due process clause of the 14th Amendment. Thus, before Florida can order such action, it must accord Schiavo with the full measure of process that is due to her. Unfortunately, a review of the record shows that such process was never provided.

The courts in Florida were charged, first and foremost, with discerning what T. Schiavo would have chosen under the present circumstances (“substituted judgment”). Florida law provides a complex system of procedural safeguards for this determination, including a “clear and convincing” evidence standard (the highest in all of civil law), and a presumption that the now-incapacitated patient would choose to live, in exercising her constitutional right to accept or refuse life-sustaining treatment. Moreover, Florida law requires that a guardian be appointed in circumstances such as these to represent the interests of the patient…

…The procedural irregularities that tainted the handling of Ms. Schiavo’s case include…:

The court’s failure to appoint a guardian ad litem (following 1998);
The court’s usurpation of the guardian’s role (in direct violation of Florida law);
The court’s reliance upon insufficient evidence regarding T. Schiavo’s wishes (namely, the recollection of her husband that T. Schiavo’s had made ambiguous, casual remarks about “not wanting to be a burden” many years prior, in a wholly unrelated context);
The court’s refusal to consider probative evidence of T. Schiavo’s wishes (namely, witness testimony that Mr. Schiavo was lying and that he had never, in fact, discussed end-of-life care with T. Schiavo); and
On remand, the court’s shifting of the burden to the Schindlers to demonstrate that T. Schiavo would have wanted treatment under the present circumstances (inverting the logic of the Florida laws).

These irregularities make it impossible to conclude that T. Schiavo’s wishes under the present circumstances were proven by “clear and convincing” evidence, particularly in light of the presumption (under Florida law) that she would have chosen to receive life sustaining treatment. Any claim, therefore, that re-insertion of the tube is contrary to Terri’s wishes (and thus an encroachment upon her right to refuse treatment) is groundless. We simply do not yet know what her wishes would have been.

The recently passed S.686 gives the Middle District of Florida jurisdiction to hear a suit or claim by or on behalf of T. Schiavo “for alleged violation of any right of T.M. Schiavo under the Constitution or laws of the US relating to the withholding or withdrawal of food, fluids, or medical treatment necessary to sustain her life.” It gives third parties the standing to bring such claims. And, most importantly for present purposes, it empowers the federal court to determine, DE NOVO, “any claim of a violation of any right of T. Schiavo within the scope of this Act, NOTWITHSTANDNG ANY PRIOR STATE COURT DETERMINATION AND REGARDLESS FO WHETHER SUCH A CLAIM HAS PREVIOUSLY BEEN RAISED, CONSIDERED, OR DECIDED IN STATE COURT PROCEEDINGS.”

Thus, its seems highly improper for the federal court to determine on the basis of a two hour hearing that the Schindler family would not likely be successful on the merits in an entirely new trial, complete with extensive discovery, etc.


EmperialChina:
read this. I posted it a couple of pages ago. A well known dr who was nominated for a nobel prize in the field of working with people like her.
http://libertytothecaptives.net/hammesfahr_dr._report.html

as to the rest of it, you’re partly correct. I don’t know the woman, she may well not be a “whore”. She’s with a guy who won’t divorce his wife who he’s trying to kill…but I don’t know what that makes her.
The kids?
Well, just to show how he’s in this new relationship.
Yes, this is how I feel. Yes, I try to find arguments to support how I feel. As I’ve said, I was firmly in the pull the plug camp…as recently as last week. Then I started hearing stuff, so I started reading, I’ve changed my mind about it.

[quote]EmperialChina wrote:
Then your post ends with the highly debatable thin-sheet of evidence that even you know is pretty “out-there” so you said it more quietly, the supposed abuse part.

[/quote]

I don’t think I said that any more quietly or loudly than any of the rest.
I don’t know as much about it, it’s just started coming out…or at least last night I heard it for the first time on I think MSNBC…
Should I have put it in CAPS?