Also: If you carry, (even if not), lean how to perform first aid and keep a medpack handy in the car at least… If people shoot each other, chances are one or both parties will be injured at least… Get some first aid training from a reputable organization… Always valuable of course, but goes double for gun owners.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
[quote]four60 wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]four60 wrote:
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]four60 wrote:
Picking up my Rossi Ranch hand today in .38/357 and ordered a Cochise Leather Holster for it. As for revolvers the only 2 I have on my list to pick up this year are the Ruger Alaskan Super Redhawk .454 casull and the Ruger Vaquero stainless steel in 45 ACP.
All the above is just for fun range shooting.
If I have to leave the house Its a 9mm Glock 17 or 19. In my house for protection its the Glock 20 10mm or the Glock 21 45.
If I had to go to war and could only have a pistol it would be a glock 17. [/quote]
How is the G20? [/quote]
x2
Haven’t ever shot a glock in 10mm, or much 10mm anything.
[/quote]
If Bhuda had a gun it would be the Glock 20. I have never shot a smoother gun in my life. Trigger is like little angel kisses.[/quote]
This makes me want one more. Where do you get ammo for it and what does it run you?[/quote]
That is the problem for this gun. The ammo is crazy expensive. Its why I have to hunt for deals. I’ve tried, Midwayusa, and Cabelas, and a bunch of other places. Its all expensive. Its why its home defense only.[/quote]
How’s the G20 kick compared to the 9’er variants?
[/quote]
I have never shot a smoother handgun. It’s the most fun I’ve had at the range other than a shotgun
[quote]four60 wrote:
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
[quote]four60 wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]four60 wrote:
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]four60 wrote:
Picking up my Rossi Ranch hand today in .38/357 and ordered a Cochise Leather Holster for it. As for revolvers the only 2 I have on my list to pick up this year are the Ruger Alaskan Super Redhawk .454 casull and the Ruger Vaquero stainless steel in 45 ACP.
All the above is just for fun range shooting.
If I have to leave the house Its a 9mm Glock 17 or 19. In my house for protection its the Glock 20 10mm or the Glock 21 45.
If I had to go to war and could only have a pistol it would be a glock 17. [/quote]
How is the G20? [/quote]
x2
Haven’t ever shot a glock in 10mm, or much 10mm anything.
[/quote]
If Bhuda had a gun it would be the Glock 20. I have never shot a smoother gun in my life. Trigger is like little angel kisses.[/quote]
This makes me want one more. Where do you get ammo for it and what does it run you?[/quote]
That is the problem for this gun. The ammo is crazy expensive. Its why I have to hunt for deals. I’ve tried, Midwayusa, and Cabelas, and a bunch of other places. Its all expensive. Its why its home defense only.[/quote]
How’s the G20 kick compared to the 9’er variants?
[/quote]
I have never shot a smoother handgun. It’s the most fun I’ve had at the range other than a shotgun[/quote]
I got to shoot a variety of 3-gun rifles… Tricked out to the max for the least muzzle rise, felt recoil, fastest transitions, 2lb fast-reset triggers and what-have-you… Crazy stuff, though some are surprisingly heavy for their size.
You can fire them extremely fast in semi and it feels like shooting a toy almost… At first I ended up using the same aggressive stance and technique I use with my battle 416, and I ended up with the muzzle sinking below the target between shots… Sure took some getting used to, and the stock 416 isn’t exactly a mule to begin with (well, it recoils differently so some people don’t like it… Same for the Scar).
If you ever come across a good 3-gun competitor, see if he’ll let you shoot some of his competition guns… Quite the experience.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Also: If you carry, (even if not), lean how to perform first aid and keep a medpack handy in the car at least… If people shoot each other, chances are one or both parties will be injured at least… Get some first aid training from a reputable organization… Always valuable of course, but goes double for gun owners.
[/quote]
That’s actually something I haven’t really thought about. Working on my first responder certification presently and I keep latex gloves in the car, but basic first aid would probably be a good idea.
On another note, if you were a criminal, there may be advantage to a revolver because you don’t leave shell casings.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Also: If you carry, (even if not), lean how to perform first aid and keep a medpack handy in the car at least… If people shoot each other, chances are one or both parties will be injured at least… Get some first aid training from a reputable organization… Always valuable of course, but goes double for gun owners.
[/quote]
That’s actually something I haven’t really thought about. Working on my first responder certification presently and I keep latex gloves in the car, but basic first aid would probably be a good idea.
On another note, if you were a criminal, there may be advantage to a revolver because you don’t leave shell casings.
[/quote]
Don’t know if they really think that far ahead… I mean, the same downsides you get also apply to them after all. I’ve seen a few reports on shootings where the bg had a revolver (like the one I mentioned several posts above), but that’s about it.
Also, consider what their sources are… They mostly use illegal smuggled/imported firearms instead of buying them at gunshows/stores. I don’t actually know if revolvers are all that commonly smuggled compared to semis… Maybe our LEO’s can shed some light here.
Oh and DD, if you get the chance, train specifically with first aid for gunshot victims in mind (I guess it’s obvious, but the common first aid courses around here for example don’t really go into that… Not sure about U.S. ones, and then there’s the experience factor, not every instructor or organization keeps up to date on that stuff).
It’s immensely useful, whether you have an accident involving you or your family or if you get in a shooting or come across a victim in whatever other situation you may encounter…
Come to think of it… You’re a fireman, right? (DD)
I believe we’ve had a conversation about firefighters being robbed/attacked/lured into ambushes by armed criminals before… Maybe we can talk about that some as well.
Still boggles my mind, after all, you guys don’t usually carry great riches or anything around?
Fucked up world.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Oh and DD, if you get the chance, train specifically with first aid for gunshot victims in mind (I guess it’s obvious, but the common first aid courses around here for example don’t really go into that… Not sure about U.S. ones, and then there’s the experience factor, not every instructor or organization keeps up to date on that stuff).
It’s immensely useful, whether you have an accident involving you or your family or if you get in a shooting or come across a victim in whatever other situation you may encounter…
[/quote]
I’ll keep that in mind. I have witnessed the aftermath of 1 handgun shooting that is probably notable in this thread (I went and set up a night time landing zone for life-flight so I missed a lot of the immediate treatment). Guy was shot in the back 4 times with a 38. 1 in his hip, 2 though his side, and the fourth punctured his heart. Not only did the guy live, he stayed reasonably conscious. So, I can attest that getting shot with a handgun doesn’t do what it does in the movies.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Oh and DD, if you get the chance, train specifically with first aid for gunshot victims in mind (I guess it’s obvious, but the common first aid courses around here for example don’t really go into that… Not sure about U.S. ones, and then there’s the experience factor, not every instructor or organization keeps up to date on that stuff).
It’s immensely useful, whether you have an accident involving you or your family or if you get in a shooting or come across a victim in whatever other situation you may encounter…
[/quote]
I’ll keep that in mind. I have witnessed the aftermath of 1 handgun shooting that is probably notable in this thread (I went and set up a night time landing zone for life-flight so I missed a lot of the immediate treatment). Guy was shot in the back 4 times with a 38. 1 in his hip, 2 though his side, and the fourth punctured his heart. Not only did the guy live, he stayed reasonably conscious. So, I can attest that getting shot with a handgun doesn’t do what it does in the movies.[/quote]
There are a surprising number of cases where people survived with severe damage to the heart… Even quite a few who have survived “good” hits to the head… Even a shotgun blast to the head (that one black guy comes to mind, he has a good portion of his skull missing but still lives)…
At the end of the day, it’s a small metal object/objects impacting at high speed and piercing/crushing and pushing tissue (or cutting it when fragmenting or built for the purpose of cutting). No magic there…
I’m still feeling terrible after watching those vids again. Damn screams get me every time.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Come to think of it… You’re a fireman, right? (DD)
I believe we’ve had a conversation about firefighters being robbed/attacked/lured into ambushes by armed criminals before… Maybe we can talk about that some as well.
Still boggles my mind, after all, you guys don’t usually carry great riches or anything around?
Fucked up world.
[/quote]
Well, more technically, most of that happens in a first responder capacity. And though I’m not certified, I still respond to calls and can legally medically do anything the EMT/paramedics tell me to. A large part of what I have seen is dealing with people not in a sound state of mind for medical reasons and/or are drunk or have drunk spouses or family members.
For example, we recently had a personal injury accident where the guy drove down an embankment (only god knows how it didnâ??t roll), through a fence and then proceeded to try to drive (with his barely rolling truck) back on to the road and get away. And a panicked, probably partially drunk guy, careening around through a field damaging private property trying to get away at all costs is just bad all around. Then you have possibly irate property owners coming out while the guy is receiving treatment (though in this case the people were calm and reasonable). There is just a setup for a lot of tense, high emotion, situations, with many times sketchy or not fully aware people.
But most specifically, medical calls have, in my mind, the potential of being the scariest. Going into someone’s home and generally without a cop presence. We are actually pretty lucky because we have 3 cops in the department so much of the time there is an armed off duty cop present.
I have my firefighter and extrication certification, but there are a lot of more advanced firefighting and SCBA classes I’d like to take (eventually I’d like to do smoke divers which is pretty intense) and I want my first responder certification for starters. I practice at least once a month with my handgun, but some more advanced classes probably wouldn’t hurt. Fortunately, I love training, now I just have to find the time.
But I’m getting way off topic.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Oh and DD, if you get the chance, train specifically with first aid for gunshot victims in mind (I guess it’s obvious, but the common first aid courses around here for example don’t really go into that… Not sure about U.S. ones, and then there’s the experience factor, not every instructor or organization keeps up to date on that stuff).
It’s immensely useful, whether you have an accident involving you or your family or if you get in a shooting or come across a victim in whatever other situation you may encounter…
[/quote]
I’ll keep that in mind. I have witnessed the aftermath of 1 handgun shooting that is probably notable in this thread (I went and set up a night time landing zone for life-flight so I missed a lot of the immediate treatment). Guy was shot in the back 4 times with a 38. 1 in his hip, 2 though his side, and the fourth punctured his heart. Not only did the guy live, he stayed reasonably conscious. So, I can attest that getting shot with a handgun doesn’t do what it does in the movies.[/quote]
There are a surprising number of cases where people survived with severe damage to the heart… Even quite a few who have survived “good” hits to the head… Even a shotgun blast to the head (that one black guy comes to mind, he has a good portion of his skull missing but still lives)…
At the end of the day, it’s a small metal object/objects impacting at high speed and piercing/crushing and pushing tissue (or cutting it when fragmenting or built for the purpose of cutting). No magic there…
I’m still feeling terrible after watching those vids again. Damn screams get me every time.
[/quote]
It is sometimes weird what will stick with you. I have yet to see a dead or dying child, or the like, and it is entirely possible that I change every belief I’ve ever had if/when something that happens.
Here is a vid where the LEO was not hit (I think) and survived… But again… Very abrupt, lucky him the bg didn’t fire right away… Not as jarring as the other vids… Felt the need to post one with a positive outcome…
And jesus. Fucking traffic violation, calm, professional officer who isn’t even pressuring the guy or anything… AND THE FUCKER PULLS A GUN OVER THAT? He didn’t even try to just drive away right off the bat, he actually tried to kill the LEO FOR NO FUCKING REASON.
Plenty of other such cases… Fuck people like that.
Edit: Oops, the officer is even more lucky than I thought… The perp did fire right away, but it was a previously fired round or something, so just the case left… According to the media.
Damn… Sometimes, things do work out all right…
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
It is sometimes weird what will stick with you. I have yet to see a dead or dying child, or the like, and it is entirely possible that I change every belief I’ve ever had if/when something that happens. [/quote]
Lucky you…
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Come to think of it… You’re a fireman, right? (DD)
I believe we’ve had a conversation about firefighters being robbed/attacked/lured into ambushes by armed criminals before… Maybe we can talk about that some as well.
Still boggles my mind, after all, you guys don’t usually carry great riches or anything around?
Fucked up world.
[/quote]
Well, more technically, most of that happens in a first responder capacity. And though I’m not certified, I still respond to calls and can legally medically do anything the EMT/paramedics tell me to. A large part of what I have seen is dealing with people not in a sound state of mind for medical reasons and/or are drunk or have drunk spouses or family members.
For example, we recently had a personal injury accident where the guy drove down an embankment (only god knows how it didn�¢??t roll), through a fence and then proceeded to try to drive (with his barely rolling truck) back on to the road and get away. And a panicked, probably partially drunk guy, careening around through a field damaging private property trying to get away at all costs is just bad all around. Then you have possibly irate property owners coming out while the guy is receiving treatment (though in this case the people were calm and reasonable). There is just a setup for a lot of tense, high emotion, situations, with many times sketchy or not fully aware people.
But most specifically, medical calls have, in my mind, the potential of being the scariest. Going into someone’s home and generally without a cop presence. We are actually pretty lucky because we have 3 cops in the department so much of the time there is an armed off duty cop present.
I have my firefighter and extrication certification, but there are a lot of more advanced firefighting and SCBA classes I’d like to take (eventually I’d like to do smoke divers which is pretty intense) and I want my first responder certification for starters. I practice at least once a month with my handgun, but some more advanced classes probably wouldn’t hurt. Fortunately, I love training, now I just have to find the time.
But I’m getting way off topic. [/quote]
Nah, this is interesting stuff… And imo important to know for the general public for many reasons. Keep it coming if you want, I’m interested.
Hm… If security is an issue, do departments/the city higher ups or whomever is in charge ever hire private security firms to provide you guys with escorts (no, not that kind hahaha, you’re not the secret service after all 
?
I imagine that could help, but then it also costs money and space on the truck/fireengine/whatever/ambulance…
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Also: If you carry, (even if not), lean how to perform first aid and keep a medpack handy in the car at least… If people shoot each other, chances are one or both parties will be injured at least… Get some first aid training from a reputable organization… Always valuable of course, but goes double for gun owners.
[/quote]
That’s actually something I haven’t really thought about. Working on my first responder certification presently and I keep latex gloves in the car, but basic first aid would probably be a good idea.
On another note, if you were a criminal, there may be advantage to a revolver because you don’t leave shell casings.
[/quote]
Don’t know if they really think that far ahead… I mean, the same downsides you get also apply to them after all. I’ve seen a few reports on shootings where the bg had a revolver (like the one I mentioned several posts above), but that’s about it.
Also, consider what their sources are… They mostly use illegal smuggled/imported firearms instead of buying them at gunshows/stores. I don’t actually know if revolvers are all that commonly smuggled compared to semis… Maybe our LEO’s can shed some light here.
[/quote]
Just so we are clear. The TV/Movie CSI stuff makes it seem like shell casings and fired bullets lead to positive ID.
They do not.
At best they are exclusionary evidence. Meaning, it wasn’t this gun because… They can also be “consistent” with a weapon, but not positive 1 to 1.
Glocks and other polygonal barrels don’t have “rifling” and the fired rounds only make it clear they were fired out of a polygonal barrel. The firing pin indent is somewhat type specific, but they are far from absolute.
The whole Ballistic Finger Printing idea is pretty much a pipe dream.
Video with suggestions for a pocket/small “blow out kit”
Regards,
Robert A
RE: Revolver Accuracy
It does not surprise me that DD says it is his most accurate gun.
Revolvers often have excellent MECHANICAL accuracy because the barrel does not move in relation to the sights with each shot, unlike an auto. This limits a large source of randomness/variability.
The hammer fall of a double action revolver happens very fast which helps as well. Finally, if it is a full size, steel gun being shot single action it is a matter of a 4-5 pound short trigger and a 3-4 pound gun.
The issue with revolvers is getting that accuracy when shooting at speed. This is especially pronounced if the frame is “lighweight” or “airweight”. If we are talking a j-frame smith instead of an N-Frame and a double action than it is a matter of a 1 pound gun with a 14 pound long trigger. That makes not disturbing aim while working the trigger a whole different issue. Even so if you bench a small frame revolver the accuracy is often fantastic. Personally, I find shooting them well very difficult. Some of the worst shooting I have ever done has been with small, aluminum framed, .38’s.
Laser grips in my personal experience mirrors the experience of some very qualified people. They work fantastic on small revolvers and make a nearly night and day difference when trying to be accurate. I think they are well worth the price on small guns because they negate the “sight radius” issue completely. They also allow much more beneficial dry fire practice because the dot gives feedback that can be missed with small sights. This is even more important when using small guns that are uncomfortable to shoot for long sessions.
RE Revolvers as a defensive arm
I think revolvers are still very viable in two circumstances for anyone, and for some individuals in a third.
1.) Small framed revolvers work quite well as a “front pocket” gun. They print, but the print says more “something” than it does gun. The shape seems to draw well from a pocket holster and they are fairly reliable. I have seen and experienced the yoke screw walking out of small .38’s, but that is it. So as a pocket or “back up” piece they are great.
2.) Large framed magnums are maybe the only choice for a handgun against bears or large dangerous animals (possible contender is a Glock 20 loaded hot). There is no usable auto that I am aware of that can come close to .44 Magnum, let alone .454 or better.
3.) Conditional: Some people shoot revolvers far better than autos and do so at a high level. I think this is getting more and more rare. Additionally there are some autos with a very usable, smooth, double action like trigger. I am thinking specifically of HK’s LEM trigger or some of the polymer Walthers.
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]Robert A wrote:
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Also: If you carry, (even if not), lean how to perform first aid and keep a medpack handy in the car at least… If people shoot each other, chances are one or both parties will be injured at least… Get some first aid training from a reputable organization… Always valuable of course, but goes double for gun owners.
[/quote]
That’s actually something I haven’t really thought about. Working on my first responder certification presently and I keep latex gloves in the car, but basic first aid would probably be a good idea.
On another note, if you were a criminal, there may be advantage to a revolver because you don’t leave shell casings.
[/quote]
Don’t know if they really think that far ahead… I mean, the same downsides you get also apply to them after all. I’ve seen a few reports on shootings where the bg had a revolver (like the one I mentioned several posts above), but that’s about it.
Also, consider what their sources are… They mostly use illegal smuggled/imported firearms instead of buying them at gunshows/stores. I don’t actually know if revolvers are all that commonly smuggled compared to semis… Maybe our LEO’s can shed some light here.
[/quote]
Just so we are clear. The TV/Movie CSI stuff makes it seem like shell casings and fired bullets lead to positive ID.
They do not.
At best they are exclusionary evidence. Meaning, it wasn’t this gun because… They can also be “consistent” with a weapon, but not positive 1 to 1.
Glocks and other polygonal barrels don’t have “rifling” and the fired rounds only make it clear they were fired out of a polygonal barrel. The firing pin indent is somewhat type specific, but they are far from absolute.
The whole Ballistic Finger Printing idea is pretty much a pipe dream.
Video with suggestions for a pocket/small “blow out kit”
Regards,
Robert A[/quote]
I was thinking more along the lines of finger prints on the casings themselves, but I was being a little sarcastic with the comment to begin with.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Come to think of it… You’re a fireman, right? (DD)
I believe we’ve had a conversation about firefighters being robbed/attacked/lured into ambushes by armed criminals before… Maybe we can talk about that some as well.
Still boggles my mind, after all, you guys don’t usually carry great riches or anything around?
Fucked up world.
[/quote]
Well, more technically, most of that happens in a first responder capacity. And though I’m not certified, I still respond to calls and can legally medically do anything the EMT/paramedics tell me to. A large part of what I have seen is dealing with people not in a sound state of mind for medical reasons and/or are drunk or have drunk spouses or family members.
For example, we recently had a personal injury accident where the guy drove down an embankment (only god knows how it didn�?�¢??t roll), through a fence and then proceeded to try to drive (with his barely rolling truck) back on to the road and get away. And a panicked, probably partially drunk guy, careening around through a field damaging private property trying to get away at all costs is just bad all around. Then you have possibly irate property owners coming out while the guy is receiving treatment (though in this case the people were calm and reasonable). There is just a setup for a lot of tense, high emotion, situations, with many times sketchy or not fully aware people.
But most specifically, medical calls have, in my mind, the potential of being the scariest. Going into someone’s home and generally without a cop presence. We are actually pretty lucky because we have 3 cops in the department so much of the time there is an armed off duty cop present.
I have my firefighter and extrication certification, but there are a lot of more advanced firefighting and SCBA classes I’d like to take (eventually I’d like to do smoke divers which is pretty intense) and I want my first responder certification for starters. I practice at least once a month with my handgun, but some more advanced classes probably wouldn’t hurt. Fortunately, I love training, now I just have to find the time.
But I’m getting way off topic. [/quote]
Nah, this is interesting stuff… And imo important to know for the general public for many reasons. Keep it coming if you want, I’m interested.
Hm… If security is an issue, do departments/the city higher ups or whomever is in charge ever hire private security firms to provide you guys with escorts (no, not that kind hahaha, you’re not the secret service after all ?
I imagine that could help, but then it also costs money and space on the truck/fireengine/whatever/ambulance…
[/quote]
Anytime there is a possible crime involved, police are there. Car accidents, fires, fights or domestic disturbances, est, plus we can always radio for a cop at any point. But it is interesting to note that death rates from EMTs are about the same as for firefighters or cops (though a large portion of that is from car accidents).
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
I was thinking more along the lines of finger prints on the casings themselves, but I was being a little sarcastic with the comment to begin with.[/quote]
Gotcha.
Well, if they can’t be troubled enough to wear gloves when they load the damn mags…of course most criminals are not that great at thinking long term.
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Also, consider what their sources are… They mostly use illegal smuggled/imported firearms instead of buying them at gunshows/stores. I don’t actually know if revolvers are all that commonly smuggled compared to semis… Maybe our LEO’s can shed some light here.
[/quote]
On the border we saw a lot of .38 revolvers and .380 autos shoved in waistbands, with a slight bias towards revolvers. They’re inexpensive, and .38 seems to be the continental pistol caliber of South America.
When we found rifles they were usually 10-22’s or SKS’s. Again, cost was probably the #1 factor.