Ten Immediate Benefits of HCR Bill

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]borrek wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
By the way, I’m not sure if this has been mentioned yet but under this incredibly generous plan please explain why anyone would buy health insurance before they actually need it. [/quote]

As demonstrated by passing of the Health Care Affordability Act, some of us do the right thing.[/quote]

Purty lame response. When it comes to the “deep thinking” type stuff you go on holiday, doncha?[/quote]

But Friend push, let’s be fair to Borrek. He has made a rational decision for himself.

What he does not know, is that lurking across the street from him is the Antiborrek family. Antiborrek has come to a different rational conclusion. He has decided that this year, he will pay the $1000 fine, but save the $6000 on insurance premiums for his family of four. You see, he needs the $5000 to spend on chrome-plated dirt-bikes for him and his son. When his daughter–that 4 year old whom Mr Axelrod is always mentioning–gets glomerulonephritis or a dirt-bike injury, Antiborrek will sign up for the high risk pool. She cannot be denied access, after all, and he gets to keep his dirt-bikes.

Well the insurance intermediary has a new customer and a new expense immediately. The riwsk has not been shared for the prior year, so they decide they must increase the rates for our rational friend, Borrek. (Oh, you say, the law will prevent that. Then that insurance company may prefer not to write policies in Michigan.) Perhaps the government will underwrite a high risk policy; taxes, after all will pay for it and Borrek is a responsible taxpayer.

Each family has make a rational choice. But who has come out ahead? Now why would Borrek want to put his family at such a disadvantage–more premiums, or withdrawal of the policy or higher taxes?

Dirt-bikes: the only answer. Chrome-plated.[/quote]

Hell, I’m sufficiently pissed off that I just may drop my health insurance and do this. I’m been eligible for lots of damned federal programs I’ve avoided out of pride and the fact that I’m not poor. Anyone with an Xbox and a roof over their head isn’t poor. I won’t take any money from Idaho, but I’m really entertaining taking money from every fed program I can get.

mike

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]borrek wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
By the way, I’m not sure if this has been mentioned yet but under this incredibly generous plan please explain why anyone would buy health insurance before they actually need it. [/quote]

As demonstrated by passing of the Health Care Affordability Act, some of us do the right thing.[/quote]

Purty lame response. When it comes to the “deep thinking” type stuff you go on holiday, doncha?[/quote]

But Friend push, let’s be fair to Borrek. He has made a rational decision for himself.

What he does not know, is that lurking across the street from him is the Antiborrek family. Antiborrek has come to a different rational conclusion. He has decided that this year, he will pay the $1000 fine, but save the $6000 on insurance premiums for his family of four. You see, he needs the $5000 to spend on chrome-plated dirt-bikes for him and his son. When his daughter–that 4 year old whom Mr Axelrod is always mentioning–gets glomerulonephritis or a dirt-bike injury, Antiborrek will sign up for the high risk pool. She cannot be denied access, after all, and he gets to keep his dirt-bikes.

Well the insurance intermediary has a new customer and a new expense immediately. The riwsk has not been shared for the prior year, so they decide they must increase the rates for our rational friend, Borrek. (Oh, you say, the law will prevent that. Then that insurance company may prefer not to write policies in Michigan.) Perhaps the government will underwrite a high risk policy; taxes, after all will pay for it and Borrek is a responsible taxpayer.

Each family has make a rational choice. But who has come out ahead? Now why would Borrek want to put his family at such a disadvantage–more premiums, or withdrawal of the policy or higher taxes?

Dirt-bikes: the only answer. Chrome-plated.[/quote]

Hell, I’m sufficiently pissed off that I just may drop my health insurance and do this. I’m been eligible for lots of damned federal programs I’ve avoided out of pride and the fact that I’m not poor. Anyone with an Xbox and a roof over their head isn’t poor. I won’t take any money from Idaho, but I’m really entertaining taking money from every fed program I can get.

mike
[/quote]

Some would call this, oh, “enabling the moral hazard.” But let’s be clear: The program promotes results antithetical to its own purpose.

For purposes of discussion, let’s say there are two camps of dissenters. Mikeyali and Push and thunderbolt, for example, might oppose this monstrosity of a health bill because it has unconstitutional precedents, or promotes federal suasion over what more properly be a local concern. In the other camp of dissenters are those who may want some coherent policy–whether state or regional or federal–but insist it must have the minimum of coercion, and the maximum benefit for the minimum expense. (In the support group is a coalition of folks who simply believe that resources are inexhaustible, everyone has rights to every resource, and it is heartless to argue otherwise.)

(Let’s face it, this is not exactly socialism, but it is a method of wealth redistribution using the resource sphere of medical care, a redistribution from taxpayers and rate-payers to insurance companies with only a momentary pause among the needy and sick. Why is it the government’s business to direct funds to increase insurance companies aggregate revenue? Who the hell in their right mind would dare call this “reform?”)

We have covered some of this ground before.

There is no need to repeat the downstream consequences that are invited by the passage of this monstrous incoherent and impractical bill.
If I had a magic wand, it would all go away. Perhaps it will. thunderbolt, elsewhere, is correct in pointing out the obvious: if only the mandate to buy insurance is deemed unconstitutional, the whole fabric of this law unravels, and some other monstrosity will need to be considered.

Which then?

It is not an idle question. We see how Borrek/Antiborrek and mikeyali would respond. I am a “provider” (I detest the term, which equates me with a vending machinge), a small businessman, an employer, an occasional patient of the most querulous type. This law demands my response in each of these roles, and as far as I can tell, has no “immediate benefits” worthy of the term.

Those who support it will never acknowledge the contrary results which it will inevitably produce; but they will find easy scapegoats for the failure of this law.

I’ll relate a little story with you guys that happened today.

A buddy of mine and his wife opened up a restaurant back in fall of 2008 (September or October, can’t remember the specific month). Anyways, these people have never run a restaurant or worked in one, but my buddy’s wife is the best fucking cook ever so she’s got her shit down in that department. My buddy owns a construction company he inherited from his father.

I asked him what he felt about the healthcare bill and he immediately flew into a rage about it. He started screaming about how this bill was going to put the restaurant out of business and so on and how taxes were bankrupting him personally and the restaurant.

I didn’t have the heart to point this out to him, but while he’s yelling about this shit, it’s noon, the restauarant is open for lunch, and there is NO ONE there, which has been pretty typical lately. I also didn’t point out that I had no sympathy for his own personal financial state that he blamed on taxes since this guy owns a heavily modified '09 Ford F-350, a fully-restored '66 Chevelle, two Wranglers, an '08 Suburban, he bought his son a truck, his other son a '66 Mustang and his daughter a Monte Carlo, he has more than twenty different shotguns and goes on fishing trips in Canada two or three times a year, he has tens of thousands of dollars worth of wine and he’s probably spent $20,000 in legal fees on his derelict son.

Given that he started a company in a notoriously sketchy industry (the restaurant) in the middle of extreme financial calamity and no one goes there and he has a shitload of toys, who is really to blame for his financial situation?

I suspect that while his situation is not similar to EVERY other person who thinks a healthcare bill will be the end of their business or financial security, how many other people who are convinced this bill will be the downfall of their lives really need to point the finger at themselves?

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
I’ll relate a little story with you guys that happened today.

A buddy of mine and his wife opened up a restaurant back in fall of 2008 (September or October, can’t remember the specific month). Anyways, these people have never run a restaurant or worked in one, but my buddy’s wife is the best fucking cook ever so she’s got her shit down in that department. My buddy owns a construction company he inherited from his father.

I asked him what he felt about the healthcare bill and he immediately flew into a rage about it. He started screaming about how this bill was going to put the restaurant out of business and so on and how taxes were bankrupting him personally and the restaurant.

I didn’t have the heart to point this out to him, but while he’s yelling about this shit, it’s noon, the restauarant is open for lunch, and there is NO ONE there, which has been pretty typical lately. I also didn’t point out that I had no sympathy for his own personal financial state that he blamed on taxes since this guy owns a heavily modified '09 Ford F-350, a fully-restored '66 Chevelle, two Wranglers, an '08 Suburban, he bought his son a truck, his other son a '66 Mustang and his daughter a Monte Carlo, he has more than twenty different shotguns and goes on fishing trips in Canada two or three times a year, he has tens of thousands of dollars worth of wine and he’s probably spent $20,000 in legal fees on his derelict son.

Given that he started a company in a notoriously sketchy industry (the restaurant) in the middle of extreme financial calamity and no one goes there and he has a shitload of toys, who is really to blame for his financial situation?

I suspect that while his situation is not similar to EVERY other person who thinks a healthcare bill will be the end of their business or financial security, how many other people who are convinced this bill will be the downfall of their lives really need to point the finger at themselves?[/quote]

You know, I think your buddy needs health insurance, too.

Let’s have a bake sale.

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

(In the support group is a coalition of folks who simply believe that resources are inexhaustible, everyone has rights to every resource, and it is heartless to argue otherwise.) [/quote]

Wow, I hadn’t realized the EVERYONE who supports this bill thinks this way.

Give me a break. You are normally better than this. You are right to point out the flaws in the bill; there are plenty of them. Politically though, I don’t know that there was another option save, perhaps, shooting out one reform at a time and obviously that wouldn’t fix many of the systemic issues either.

August really changed my mind from wanting to see bipartisanship to “fuck 'em and get something done.” “Death Panels?” …maybe from a 3rd tier congressman, but coming from the leadership?!?

Later, when the President has a summit and Republican member after member says, “scrap it and start over.” What they are really saying is, “we won’t pass a single thing you propose, so give up now.” You know this is true.

A lot more needs to be done. But politically, I don’t see a way forward.

You know Push, I agree that some of the stuff in your post is bullshit and on the coercive side, but I do have a problem with 1 and 2. What if you’re young (21), healthy and so forth, so you decide not to buy healthcare. Then one day, you’re mt biking and you take a header over the handlebars and get a concussion, have to go to the ER for a CAT scan and some stitches in your shin? Who pays the bill if the biker can’t afford it and he’s turned down by MediCal? Taxpayers pay for it no matter what unless he comes up with the cash out of his own pocket.

Under the current system (before this new bill) if this guy decides that he wants to get health insurance since this crash wised him up a bit, insurers won’t cover the cost for any medical attention he receives in relation to his concussion since it’s a pre-existing condition.

Also, while smoking and drinking on a regular basis is unhealthy and assuredly will lead to health problems, at some point, we ALL engage in risky behavior to a certain degree. Being young and healthy doesn’t make any of us invincible. Granted, there are varying degrees, but I see that you like dirtbiking and/or snowmobiling. Why should someone who participates in those sorts of activities get a better break than someone who smokes? Aren’t they both dangerous to your health? And when we reach old age, won’t we all need healthcare regardless of how healthy of a life we lived up to that point?

I understand your points regarding most of the numbered items above, but if lifestyle is to be a large determining factor in what is and isn’t underwritten, then how do you determine a hierarchical order of dangerous activities? Obviously we can come to a pretty good conclusion regarding the most dangerous of activities, but where would you put someone with several speeding tickets compared to someone who dirtbikes every weekend?

There’s a couple other numbered items that I have issue with, but those can wait for later when I have more time to soak them in and make a sensible point. Time to lift.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

Indeed.

There’s no rational reason not to be Antiborrek. If Antiborrek doesn’t have dirt bikes but instead has a house mortgage payment that he is having trouble meeting for whatever reason he would be rationally compelled to pay the $1000 IRS enforced fine and choose not to enroll in Obama Shield. It would be the “right” thing to do.

If Antiborrek is starting a small business so he can feed his family and his business needs the capital that Blue Obama Blue Pelosi would otherwise take from him Antiborrek is making a wise business decision to invest the money. It’s not a moral issue. Borrek deserves no monument to enshrine his integrity for the coming generations. Borrek is just a chump.

In fact, I could come up with a thousand different reasons why it would be “right” to wait until you needed the health care before you enrolled. Borrek would be no moral match for Antiborrek under a myriad of scenarios.[/quote]

It is telling that your reasoning of what is “right” all revolves around your wallet.

I invite you - expect you even - to show how right you are, and only purchase insurance after you or your family has gotten sick. You don’t want to be a chump do you?

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

(In the support group is a coalition of folks who simply believe that resources are inexhaustible, everyone has rights to every resource, and it is heartless to argue otherwise.) [/quote]

Wow, I hadn’t realized the EVERYONE who supports this bill thinks this way.

Give me a break. You are normally better than this. You are right to point out the flaws in the bill; there are plenty of them. Politically though, I don’t know that there was another option save, perhaps, shooting out one reform at a time and obviously that wouldn’t fix many of the systemic issues either.

August really changed my mind from wanting to see bipartisanship to “fuck 'em and get something done.” “Death Panels?” …maybe from a 3rd tier congressman, but coming from the leadership?!?

Later, when the President has a summit and Republican member after member says, “scrap it and start over.” What they are really saying is, “we won’t pass a single thing you propose, so give up now.” You know this is true.

A lot more needs to be done. But politically, I don’t see a way forward. [/quote]

You do understand the meaning and uses of caricature, yes?

If you did not find reasonable alternatives in August, perhaps that was because other voices were effectively excluded last April.
Republicans were not truly wanted in the process. O. Snowe was simply co-opted and spit out as unnecessary. “Starting over” was an appropriate response to a proposal so flawed as to be irreparably destructive of any common purpose.

Was there ever–ever–in the House, an interview of a responsible welfare economist? Was there anything but horsetrading of benefits and taxes? No. This bill was never about health care; it was never about cost containment. It is only vaguely about extending benefits; another plan would have insured almost as many and cost only one-quarter of this monstrosity. No, this process was about the political reallocation of resources. So why pretend the Democrat process would yield a reasonable bill, leave alone a policy that might achieve your goals?

It is you, GL, who has been cheated. The pity is that you cannot or do not see this, and it is you who are now powerless to change it.


So what more needs to be done? As the process unrolls, will it be employment-based insurance which fails? Will insurance companies stop underwriting? The consequences will now largely be outside your control, but please inform us, with apologies to Lenin, what more is to be done?

[quote]lou21 wrote:

[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:

[quote]lou21 wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
If “we join the rest of the world” we’re taking a hit. The American middle class if far richer than European middle class. You would have to be a millionaire in Europe to live like I do.[/quote]

How many days holiday do you get a year?

How many hours do you work each week?

How many minutes is your commute to work?

What time do you leave work on Friday afternoons?

If you need to drop your children off at school can you without any question whatsoever from your employer? (As long as you actually do the job your paid to do.)

Are you absolutely certain that you’ll always be treated if you get sick?

How much will you pay to send your children through university/college?

Do you still feel rich after answering these questions?[/quote]

So now Lou it’s your turn :)[/quote]

I’m not a fair example. I don’t want to go into too much detail about me. I’ll say what most people in my office do. I don’t live in the UK I live somewhere else in Europe but I’m not saying where. Is that cool?

We have 25 days holiday. Plus about 12-15 public holiday. Plus it’s very easy to have flex holiday days as well.

Most people work about 37 hours a week. If someone is inefficient then they work longer hours.

Most people commute no more than 20minutes. Many less. (mine is 5 minutes on a bike)

3:30 is the normal leaving time on a Friday.

No one ever questions childcare needs. For fathers or mothers. I don’t mean for sick kids I mean day to day stuff.

Healthcare is state run. Sometimes waiting times for elective treatments suck. No one ever goes untreated in a hospital or doctors surgery. No one is ever asked whether they can afford a treatment.

Undergraduate students get generous grants. They pay no fees and should finish their degrees debt free.

The locals feel very rich.[/quote]

How are you not a fair example? Just answer the questions you posed? I answered them.

Oh wait is this how socialism works? You ask pointed questions of everybody else but when asked to answer the same questions you duck and dodge?

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
<<< It is you, GL, who has been cheated. The pity is that you cannot or do not see this, and it is you are now powerless to change it. >>>[/quote]

This is maybe the biggest tragedy of all. Seriously. Not just him. Some people’s genuine even if misguided compassion has been brutally gang raped by smiling politicians for whom care of the “needy” is little more than a vehicle for the blunt instrument of ever increasing power.

It’s heartbreaking. As hard as it may be to believe I actually mean that with no sarcasm whatsoever. People will trust strangers in a far away city with enough of their lives to render themselves incapable of reconsideration. It’s a sad sad, but indeed historic day.

[quote]borrek wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

Indeed.

There’s no rational reason not to be Antiborrek. If Antiborrek doesn’t have dirt bikes but instead has a house mortgage payment that he is having trouble meeting for whatever reason he would be rationally compelled to pay the $1000 IRS enforced fine and choose not to enroll in Obama Shield. It would be the “right” thing to do.

If Antiborrek is starting a small business so he can feed his family and his business needs the capital that Blue Obama Blue Pelosi would otherwise take from him Antiborrek is making a wise business decision to invest the money. It’s not a moral issue. Borrek deserves no monument to enshrine his integrity for the coming generations. Borrek is just a chump.

In fact, I could come up with a thousand different reasons why it would be “right” to wait until you needed the health care before you enrolled. Borrek would be no moral match for Antiborrek under a myriad of scenarios.[/quote]

It is telling that your reasoning of what is “right” all revolves around your wallet.

I invite you - expect you even - to show how right you are, and only purchase insurance after you or your family has gotten sick. You don’t want to be a chump do you?
[/quote]

Actually, it was your wallet that was my concern.

The larger point is this: the money spent on Antiborrek is largely wasted. If you think any plan is desirable, a different plan might induce him to do “What is right” by his family, all on his own. The more money is made available for more needy people, the more people are protected and happy.

So you see, the parable is not about push’s wallet for push’s benefit alone. The concern–and very possibly push’s–is to do more with less. More for the Borreks and Antiborreks, more free choices, with less coercion, less expense, and fewer heartless mistakes.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
With ObamaCARE now passed, containing the Cornhusker Kickback, Gator-Aid, the Lousiana Purchase, and other shady deals, Investors Business Daily gives up 20 ways that ObamaCARE will take away our freedoms. IBD�¢??s sections described below are taken from HR 3590 as agreed to by the Senate and from the reconciliation bill which takes out the Cornhusker Kickback and Gator-Aid as displayed by the Rules Committee.

  1. You are young and don�¢??t want health insurance? You are starting up a small business and need to minimize expenses, and one way to do that is to forego health insurance? Tough. You have to pay $750 annually for the �¢??privilege.�¢?? (Section 1501)

  2. You are young and healthy and want to pay for insurance that reflects that status? Tough. You�¢??ll have to pay for premiums that cover not only you, but also the guy who smokes three packs a day, drink a gallon of whiskey and eats chicken fat off the floor. That�¢??s because insurance companies will no longer be able to underwrite on the basis of a person�¢??s health status. (Section 2701).

  3. You would like to pay less in premiums by buying insurance with lifetime or annual limits on coverage? Tough. Health insurers will no longer be able to offer such policies, even if that is what customers prefer. (Section 2711).

  4. Think you�¢??d like a policy that is cheaper because it doesn�¢??t cover preventive care or requires cost-sharing for such care? Tough. Health insurers will no longer be able to offer policies that do not cover preventive services or offer them with cost-sharing, even if that�¢??s what the customer wants. (Section 2712).

  5. You are an employer and you would like to offer coverage that doesn�¢??t allow your employers�¢?? slacker children to stay on the policy until age 26? Tough. (Section 2714).

  6. You must buy a policy that covers ambulatory patient services, emergency services, hospitalization, maternity and newborn care, mental health and substance use disorder services, including behavioral health treatment; prescription drugs; rehabilitative and habilitative services and devices; laboratory services; preventive and wellness services; chronic disease management; and pediatric services, including oral and vision care.

You�¢??re a single guy without children? Tough, your policy must cover pediatric services. You�¢??re a woman who can�¢??t have children? Tough, your policy must cover maternity services. You�¢??re a teetotaler? Tough, your policy must cover substance abuse treatment. (Add your own violation of personal freedom here.) (Section 1302).

  1. Do you want a plan with lots of cost-sharing and low premiums? Well, the best you can do is a �¢??Bronze plan,�¢?? which has benefits that provide benefits that are actuarially equivalent to 60% of the full actuarial value of the benefits provided under the plan. Anything lower than that, tough. (Section 1302 (d) (1) (A))

  2. You are an employer in the small-group insurance market and you�¢??d like to offer policies with deductibles higher than $2,000 for individuals and $4,000 for families? Tough. (Section 1302 (c) (2) (A).

  3. If you are a large employer (defined as at least 101 employees) and you do not want to provide health insurance to your employee, then you will pay a $750 fine per employee (It could be $2,000 to $3,000 under the reconciliation changes). Think you know how to better spend that money? Tough. (Section 1513).

  4. You are an employer who offers health flexible spending arrangements and your employees want to deduct more than $2,500 from their salaries for it? Sorry, can�¢??t do that. (Section 9005 (i)).

  5. If you are a physician and you don�¢??t want the government looking over your shoulder? Tough. The Secretary of Health and Human Services is authorized to use your claims data to issue you reports that measure the resources you use, provide information on the quality of care you provide, and compare the resources you use to those used by other physicians. Of course, this will all be just for informational purposes. It�¢??s not like the government will ever use it to intervene in your practice and patients�¢?? care. Of course not. (Section 3003 (i))

  6. If you are a physician and you want to own your own hospital, you must be an owner and have a �¢??Medicare provider agreement�¢?? by Feb. 1, 2010. (Dec. 31, 2010 in the reconciliation changes.) If you didn�¢??t have those by then, you are out of luck. (Section 6001 (i) (1) (A))

  7. If you are a physician owner and you want to expand your hospital? Well, you can�¢??t (Section 6001 (i) (1) (B). Unless, it is located in a country where, over the last five years, population growth has been 150% of what it has been in the state (Section 6601 (i) (3) ( E)). And then you cannot increase your capacity by more than 200% (Section 6001 (i) (3) (C)).

  8. You are a health insurer and you want to raise premiums to meet costs? Well, if that increase is deemed �¢??unreasonable�¢?? by the Secretary of Health and Human Services it will be subject to review and can be denied. (Section 1003)

  9. The government will extract a fee of $2.3 billion annually from the pharmaceutical industry. If you are a pharmaceutical company what you will pay depends on the ratio of the number of brand-name drugs you sell to the total number of brand-name drugs sold in the U.S. So, if you sell 10% of the brand-name drugs in the U.S., what you pay will be 10% multiplied by $2.3 billion, or $230,000,000. (Under reconciliation, it starts at $2.55 billion, jumps to $3 billion in 2012, then to $3.5 billion in 2017 and $4.2 billion in 2018, before settling at $2.8 billion in 2019 (Section 1404)). Think you, as a pharmaceutical executive, know how to better use that money, say for research and development? Tough. (Section 9008 (b)).

  10. The government will extract a fee of $2 billion annually from medical device makers. If you are a medical device maker what you will pay depends on your share of medical device sales in the U.S. So, if you sell 10% of the medical devices in the U.S., what you pay will be 10% multiplied by $2 billion, or $200,000,000. Think you, as a medical device maker, know how to better use that money, say for R&D? Tough. (Section 9009 (b)).

The reconciliation package turns that into a 2.9% excise tax for medical device makers. Think you, as a medical device maker, know how to better use that money, say for research and development? Tough. (Section 1405).

  1. The government will extract a fee of $6.7 billion annually from insurance companies. If you are an insurer, what you will pay depends on your share of net premiums plus 200% of your administrative costs. So, if your net premiums and administrative costs are equal to 10% of the total, you will pay 10% of $6.7 billion, or $670,000,000. In the reconciliation bill, the fee will start at $8 billion in 2014, $11.3 billion in 2015, $1.9 billion in 2017, and $14.3 billion in 2018 (Section 1406).Think you, as an insurance executive, know how to better spend that money? Tough.(Section 9010 (b) (1) (A and B).)

  2. If an insurance company board or its stockholders think the CEO is worth more than $500,000 in deferred compensation? Tough.(Section 9014).

  3. You will have to pay an additional 0.5% payroll tax on any dollar you make over $250,000 if you file a joint return and $200,000 if you file an individual return. What? You think you know how to spend the money you earned better than the government? Tough. (Section 9015).

That amount will rise to a 3.8% tax if reconciliation passes. It will also apply to investment income, estates, and trusts. You think you know how to spend the money you earned better than the government? Like you need to ask. (Section 1402).

  1. If you go for cosmetic surgery, you will pay an additional 5% tax on the cost of the procedure. Think you know how to spend that money you earned better than the government? Tough. (Section 9017).

http://www.infowars.com/20-ways-obamacare-will-take-away-our-freedoms/[/quote]

Here is a time line for some of the items above;

In 2011 Imposes $2.3 billion annual fee on drugmakers, increasing over time

Requires employers to report the value of health care benefits on employees’ W-2 tax statements.

In 2012

Sets up program to create nonprofit insurance co-ops that would compete with commercial insurers.

Penalizes hospitals with high rates of preventable re-admissions by reducing Medicare payments.
(ie your drug seekers or frequent fliers in the EMS system).

In 2013

Imposes a 2.3 percent sales tax on medical devices. Eyeglasses, contact lenses, hearing aids and many everyday items bought at the drug store are exempt. (this is a huge one, how many of us wear glasses or contacts?)

Also my wife has a spinal cord stimulator for pain what is the tax going to be on having that replaced? How much tax on a pacemaker, artifical knee or hip?

In 2014

Provides income-based tax credits for most consumers in the exchanges, substantially reducing costs for many. Sliding scale credits phase out completely for households above four times the federal poverty level, about $88,000 for a family of four.

How many of us fall into this catagory? Keep in mind this counts both wages.

Requires citizens and legal residents to have health insurance, except in cases of financial hardship, or pay a fine to the IRS. Penalty starts at $95 per person in 2014, rising to $695 in 2016. Family penalty capped at $2,250. Penalties indexed for inflation after 2016.

In 2018 AND THIS IS THE ONE THAT WILL KICK MY ASS PERSONALLY

Imposes a tax on employer-sponsored health insurance worth more than $10,200 for individual coverage, $27,500 for a family plan. The tax is 40 percent of the value of the plan above the thresholds, indexed for inflation.

So based on what I’m looking at here (granted I’m not going line by line through this monstrosity), I’m not very please with Obamacare.

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
I’ll relate a little story with you guys that happened today.

A buddy of mine and his wife opened up a restaurant back in fall of 2008 (September or October, can’t remember the specific month). Anyways, these people have never run a restaurant or worked in one, but my buddy’s wife is the best fucking cook ever so she’s got her shit down in that department. My buddy owns a construction company he inherited from his father.

I asked him what he felt about the healthcare bill and he immediately flew into a rage about it. He started screaming about how this bill was going to put the restaurant out of business and so on and how taxes were bankrupting him personally and the restaurant.

I didn’t have the heart to point this out to him, but while he’s yelling about this shit, it’s noon, the restauarant is open for lunch, and there is NO ONE there, which has been pretty typical lately. I also didn’t point out that I had no sympathy for his own personal financial state that he blamed on taxes since this guy owns a heavily modified '09 Ford F-350, a fully-restored '66 Chevelle, two Wranglers, an '08 Suburban, he bought his son a truck, his other son a '66 Mustang and his daughter a Monte Carlo, he has more than twenty different shotguns and goes on fishing trips in Canada two or three times a year, he has tens of thousands of dollars worth of wine and he’s probably spent $20,000 in legal fees on his derelict son.

Given that he started a company in a notoriously sketchy industry (the restaurant) in the middle of extreme financial calamity and no one goes there and he has a shitload of toys, who is really to blame for his financial situation?

I suspect that while his situation is not similar to EVERY other person who thinks a healthcare bill will be the end of their business or financial security, how many other people who are convinced this bill will be the downfall of their lives really need to point the finger at themselves?[/quote]

While your friend might not make a great restaurant owner there are always those at the fringe that might have made it but could not shoulder an additional burden.

It is inevitable that a bill like this kills businesses.

[quote]borrek wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

Indeed.

There’s no rational reason not to be Antiborrek. If Antiborrek doesn’t have dirt bikes but instead has a house mortgage payment that he is having trouble meeting for whatever reason he would be rationally compelled to pay the $1000 IRS enforced fine and choose not to enroll in Obama Shield. It would be the “right” thing to do.

If Antiborrek is starting a small business so he can feed his family and his business needs the capital that Blue Obama Blue Pelosi would otherwise take from him Antiborrek is making a wise business decision to invest the money. It’s not a moral issue. Borrek deserves no monument to enshrine his integrity for the coming generations. Borrek is just a chump.

In fact, I could come up with a thousand different reasons why it would be “right” to wait until you needed the health care before you enrolled. Borrek would be no moral match for Antiborrek under a myriad of scenarios.[/quote]

It is telling that your reasoning of what is “right” all revolves around your wallet.

I invite you - expect you even - to show how right you are, and only purchase insurance after you or your family has gotten sick. You don’t want to be a chump do you?
[/quote]

Dood, Stop being an asshat, Seriously, we are pointing out the fact that Antiborrek exists, and he exists in numbers that will cripple this plan. Stop trying to say that YOU and PUSH are better than that, Of course 99% of the people who are on this site are above behavior like that. A very large number of people are not above that. Acknowledge they exist or you lose all cred… You continue to have no credibility.

V