Ten Immediate Benefits of HCR Bill

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
…Rep. Stupak, one of the most hardcore anti-abortion Dems around…[/quote]

Sorry, Charlie, but you’re required to turn in your “hardcore” merit badge when you vote for a bill that requires federal funding for elective abortions, executive orders to the contrary notwithstanding. You see, this bill is now the law of the land and Barackie the Magnificent can executively order until his floppy ears fall off and he can’t rescind the law of the land.

He simply caved; he’s a pussy. I respect the pro-abortion politician who stuck to his guns throughout the whole ordeal more than this equivocating bowl of jello.[/quote]

As always Push, you’ve let the point of my post fly right over your head in your attempts at sophistry (don’t know what it means? look it up) and name calling. You’re a sophist to the bone and most of your counterarguments directed at me are without substance.

My point is that it is wholly hyppocritical to decry the loss of life due to abortion and then turn around and oppose a bill whose aim, ostensibly, is to help save lives. Regardless of how many abortions are performed each year (and let me state for the record that I am against abortion) compared to healthcare-related deaths, the point is that they both are losses of life. To respect the lives of unborn children but to stand against a bill that potentially could save lives (at what fiscal cost is immaterial to this argument) is the epitome of hypocrisy.

Now let’s examine the fiscal nature of this since money seems to be at the root of this healthcare debate. People cost money, period. There’s no other way around it. So if people are going to say, “well, we can’t afford healthcare”, by the same logic they must also accept that, from a purely monetary standpoint we can’t afford to NOT abort unwanted children. Of course, this is an absolutely horrific way to look at abortion, but doesn’t the same standard that the pro-life crowd applies to abortion also apply to healthcare?

Whoever yelled out “baby killer”, assuming this person was against healthcare reform, is a hypocrite simply playing on an extremely divisive, contentious issue for personal gain.

42

Anyone of you guys who think this bill is a good idea are out of your damn minds. For one as an earlier poster already mentioned not one persone in this country will ever be denied care regardless of the unholy bill. Why? Medicade. I can personally say it worked fin for my aunt when she fell off a ldder and had $20,000+ in bills. She applied for medicade because she does not have that much money and no insurance. They are paying her bills.

If that didnt work her hospital said she could apply for them to treat her free as a write off or if she didnt qualify she had the option to work out a plan over a few years. Come on people shit happens and sometimes we get the short end of the stick. Not everyone can live the best life. They we all man up and accept up and this county will be much better off.

43

it won’t just stop at health care. mark my words.

44

epic fail on my part!!!

“The_Clamp_Down” got it right… my math was WAY off!!! My apologies to all involved… I suppose I could just edit it out but I deserve said derision… “PAT” got it right by just buying the 35 million the best healthcare imaginable for 10 years and still be ahead hundreds of billions of dollars…

By the way, new numbers on those uninsured BUT WOULD LIKE INSURANCE is only 12 million people… At least that is what Rush says…

45

[quote]borrek wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Sorry, Charlie, but you’re required to turn in your “hardcore” merit badge when you vote for a bill that requires federal funding for elective abortions, executive orders to the contrary notwithstanding. You see, this bill is now the law of the land and Barackie the Magnificent can executively order until his floppy ears fall off and he can’t rescind the law of the land.

He simply caved; he’s a pussy. I respect the pro-abortion politician who stuck to his guns throughout the whole ordeal more than this equivocating bowl of jello.[/quote]

Fail. Show me one sentence of the Health Care Bill that says “elective abortions are required to be federally funded”[/quote]

Here ya go skippy…
The Senate version would require at least one plan within the health insurance exchange that the bill sets up to offer a plan that covers abortion and one that doesn’t. It would also authorize the Health and Human Services Secretary to audit plans to make certain that abortion isn’t being paid for with federal dollars.

46

[quote]StevenF wrote:
it won’t just stop at health care. mark my words. [/quote]

Considering they rammed this through against the will of the people, they’ll do anything. Every poll conducted showed the American people were overwhelmingly against this bill.

47

[quote]pat wrote:
If “we join the rest of the world” we’re taking a hit. The American middle class if far richer than European middle class. You would have to be a millionaire in Europe to live like I do.[/quote]

How many days holiday do you get a year?

How many hours do you work each week?

How many minutes is your commute to work?

What time do you leave work on Friday afternoons?

If you need to drop your children off at school can you without any question whatsoever from your employer? (As long as you actually do the job your paid to do.)

Are you absolutely certain that you’ll always be treated if you get sick?

How much will you pay to send your children through university/college?

Do you still feel rich after answering these questions?

48

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]borrek wrote:
Show me one sentence of the Health Care Bill that says “elective abortions are required to be federally funded”[/quote]

Here ya go skippy…
The Senate version would require at least one plan within the health insurance exchange that the bill sets up to offer a plan that covers abortion and one that doesn’t. It would also authorize the Health and Human Services Secretary to audit plans to make certain that abortion isn’t being paid for with federal dollars.

???

49

[quote]pat wrote:
Fail. Show me one sentence of the Health Care Bill that says “elective abortions are required to be federally funded”

Here ya go skippy…
The Senate version would require at least one plan within the health insurance exchange that the bill sets up to offer a plan that covers abortion and one that doesn’t. It would also authorize the Health and Human Services Secretary to audit plans to make certain that abortion isn’t being paid for with federal dollars.

Either you didn’t read what I wrote very well, or you didn’t read the link you quoted very well.

Any federal dollars paid out by the Dept of Health and Human Services are governed by the Hyde Amendment, which has for decades prevented HHS (specifically Medicaid) from paying for elective abortions. In effect the Reid Compromise expands Hyde Amendment language to the new health care bill, and further restricts federal dollars for abortion.

Here are some quotes from your very own link:

“It [the language of the compromise] ensures that [b]federal funds do not pay for abortions[/b] but allows continued access to this legal medical procedure. This is a bill about health insurance reform not about expanding or contracting access to abortion services.”

and

“Senator Reid did an excellent job of crafting language that maintains the decades long compromise of [b]no federal funds for abortion[/b], while allowing a woman to use her own private funds for her reproductive health care. In this Senate bill, there is a [b]complete separation of public and private funding[/b] when it comes to purchasing insurance that includes legal reproductive health care procedures.”

50

[quote]lou21 wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
If “we join the rest of the world” we’re taking a hit. The American middle class if far richer than European middle class. You would have to be a millionaire in Europe to live like I do.[/quote]

How many days holiday do you get a year? 7 Holidays + 15 PDO

How many hours do you work each week? 40-60

How many minutes is your commute to work? 5

What time do you leave work on Friday afternoons? 4:30-5:00

If you need to drop your children off at school can you without any question whatsoever from your employer? (As long as you actually do the job your paid to do.)

I could but I don’t have to.

Are you absolutely certain that you’ll always be treated if you get sick?

I’m not ABSOLUTELY certain about anything, (Cept paying taxes and dying) but neither are you.

How much will you pay to send your children through university/college?

My family started an ESA for my daughter when she was born. If it grows at 12% per year in a mutual fund as good mutuals have for the past 80 years. At Approx $200 per month annualize between Grandparents putting in for birthdays and christmas presents and my $100 per month, after 17 years we will have put in 40K, the fund she will go to college with will be worth $130,000.

Do you still feel rich after answering these questions?[/quote]

Responses above.

I’m sure Pat out earns me and yet I still have all the luxuries I could want. That was even being stupid with credit for the past 10 years. Right now I’m able to dig myself out, will be clear in 2.5 years and will have an abundance of income to play with, invest, save, etc… Also I’m more free than you are (though less than saturday) and that has an immense value to it, so yes I feel rich.

V

51

How can you claim to be pro-life when you care more about saving a few fucking dollars? WTF!? And please inform me with the rest of the world, as to how ‘public funded abortions’ will EVER drive abortion totals down?

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

. . . . from a purely monetary standpoint we can’t afford to NOT abort unwanted children . . . . [/quote]

52

HCR is about money for ME - its about MY MONEY.

How many days holiday do you get a year? 3 weeks + 12 official holidays

How many hours do you work each week? 40-65 ish (sometimes from home so could be 70) Its why America is great.

How many minutes is your commute to work? absurd - 60-70 min (my choice - i like the burbs)

What time do you leave work on Friday afternoons? whenever i need to usually about 4:30 though

If you need to drop your children off at school can you without any question whatsoever from your employer? (As long as you actually do the job your paid to do.) without question

Are you absolutely certain that you’ll always be treated if you get sick? V- death & taxes

How much will you pay to send your children through university/college? nothing - 2 yrs of junior college / 2yrs of student loans for my kids. Life is about responsibility and I cant tell you how many times I talk to parent putting themselves in debt to fund their kids tuition. Why does that make sense? You are hitting your golden yrs and reducing your net worth to take care of a bill that your kid has a lifetime to manage? Personal choice i guess.

Do you still feel rich after answering these questions? Yes I do but I’ll take freedom and broke over socialism any day.

53

[quote]MrDan500 wrote:
Anyone of you guys who think this bill is a good idea are out of your damn minds. For one as an earlier poster already mentioned not one persone in this country will ever be denied care regardless of the unholy bill. Why? Medicade. I can personally say it worked fin for my aunt when she fell off a ldder and had $20,000+ in bills. She applied for medicade because she does not have that much money and no insurance. They are paying her bills.

If that didnt work her hospital said she could apply for them to treat her free as a write off or if she didnt qualify she had the option to work out a plan over a few years. Come on people shit happens and sometimes we get the short end of the stick. Not everyone can live the best life. They we all man up and accept up and this county will be much better off.[/quote]

Well, to be accurate, there are large groups of people who make just enough that they don’t qualify for Medicaid, but not enough that they can afford private insurance. At any rate, there are other parts of this bill. There are many people in this country (myself included) who make a good living (my wife and I combine for about $100k/year), but if we lost our health insurance, due to job loss or some other factor, we would be out of luck due to pre-existing conditions. Also, lifetime “caps” on spending in a policy have caused many people (honest, hard-working people who developed cancer or some other major disease) to be dropped from coverage even though they had paid into it as agreed.

In addition, an above poster mentioned that anyone can receive care in an ER. That is a true statement. Another person mentioned the inefficiency of that care, and that is true. However, the real point here is that law requires that ER’s provide stabilizing care. Care for chronic conditions is not covered by that law. I worked in a hospital and saw first-hand people who had a chronic, but treatable, problems. One lady has MRSA infected sores on her legs. While MRSA is certainly very difficult to treat, had we been able to admit her and give her treatment we likely could have eliminated the problem. Even if we couldn’t, we could’ve greatly increased the quality and length of her life. She died recently at age 43. Now, truth be told, I’m not sure why she couldn’t get healthcare coverage. I don’t know the specifics of her situation. But I do know that she seemed a good person, and that as a human being she deserved to be treated for her condition.

It can be easy to cocoon yourself and think that everyone who doesn’t have insurance or is on welfare is just a lazy hack. Reality, however, bites. Everyone’s situation is different. Many people find themselves in that situation because of a disease or disability that is perfectly legitimate.

To that idea that the American people didn’t want this bill. It is a true statement that many polls showed the majority public against the bill. They were, however, overwhelmingly in favor of ending pre-existing conditions, ending lifetime caps, allowing children to stay on their parents’ plans longer, eliminating the Part D donut hole, creating exchanges to increase competition in the market, and many other aspects of the bill. What is most telling is the idea that most people say things about the bill that simply is not true. If I had a yellow piece of paper in my pocket, then told everyone around me that the paper was blue, then held a poll that showed that the piece of paper was blue. Well, needless to say, that doesn’t make that piece of paper any less yellow or any more blue. Misleading people, or flat out lying, by saying that “death-panels” will be set up, or as Mitch McConnell said, “This bill will lead to a gov’t takeover of Medicare,” (already a gov’t program of course) doesn’t give people the facts. There are legitimate reasons to question the bill. I wish the candor would’ve played out to give people facts and allow them to decide for themselves. Unfortunately fear was used, and fear struck out.

54

How many days holiday do you get a year? As many as I want

How many hours do you work each week? As many as I want

How many minutes is your commute to work? Zero

What time do you leave work on Friday afternoons? Whenever I want

If you need to drop your children off at school can you without any question whatsoever from your employer? (As long as you actually do the job your paid to do.) Yes, because I have no employer

Are you absolutely certain that you’ll always be treated if you get sick? Yes, that’s why I pay out of my own pocket for health insurance and have savings. I do not understand why other people refuse to do the same and then bitch about no coverage, I would also enjoy having several hundred dollars less in bills each month but I CHOOSE to be RESPONSIBLE.

How much will you pay to send your children through university/college? My son has a college fund and anything beyond that he is responsible for.

Do you still feel rich after answering these questions? Yes and No. I already work four months out of every year for Uncle Sam before I even begin to make money for myself. The thought of working even more because someone else dropped the ball on their own life really pisses me off.

56

[quote]danew wrote:

[quote]MrDan500 wrote:
Anyone of you guys who think this bill is a good idea are out of your damn minds. For one as an earlier poster already mentioned not one persone in this country will ever be denied care regardless of the unholy bill. Why? Medicade. I can personally say it worked fin for my aunt when she fell off a ldder and had $20,000+ in bills. She applied for medicade because she does not have that much money and no insurance. They are paying her bills.

If that didnt work her hospital said she could apply for them to treat her free as a write off or if she didnt qualify she had the option to work out a plan over a few years. Come on people shit happens and sometimes we get the short end of the stick. Not everyone can live the best life. They we all man up and accept up and this county will be much better off.[/quote]

Well, to be accurate, there are large groups of people who make just enough that they don’t qualify for Medicaid, but not enough that they can afford private insurance. At any rate, there are other parts of this bill. There are many people in this country (myself included) who make a good living (my wife and I combine for about $100k/year), but if we lost our health insurance, due to job loss or some other factor, we would be out of luck due to pre-existing conditions. Also, lifetime “caps” on spending in a policy have caused many people (honest, hard-working people who developed cancer or some other major disease) to be dropped from coverage even though they had paid into it as agreed.

In addition, an above poster mentioned that anyone can receive care in an ER. That is a true statement. Another person mentioned the inefficiency of that care, and that is true. However, the real point here is that law requires that ER’s provide stabilizing care. Care for chronic conditions is not covered by that law. I worked in a hospital and saw first-hand people who had a chronic, but treatable, problems. One lady has MRSA infected sores on her legs. While MRSA is certainly very difficult to treat, had we been able to admit her and give her treatment we likely could have eliminated the problem. Even if we couldn’t, we could’ve greatly increased the quality and length of her life. She died recently at age 43. Now, truth be told, I’m not sure why she couldn’t get healthcare coverage. I don’t know the specifics of her situation. But I do know that she seemed a good person, and that as a human being she deserved to be treated for her condition.

It can be easy to cocoon yourself and think that everyone who doesn’t have insurance or is on welfare is just a lazy hack. Reality, however, bites. Everyone’s situation is different. Many people find themselves in that situation because of a disease or disability that is perfectly legitimate.

To that idea that the American people didn’t want this bill. It is a true statement that many polls showed the majority public against the bill. They were, however, overwhelmingly in favor of ending pre-existing conditions, ending lifetime caps, allowing children to stay on their parents’ plans longer, eliminating the Part D donut hole, creating exchanges to increase competition in the market, and many other aspects of the bill. What is most telling is the idea that most people say things about the bill that simply is not true. If I had a yellow piece of paper in my pocket, then told everyone around me that the paper was blue, then held a poll that showed that the piece of paper was blue. Well, needless to say, that doesn’t make that piece of paper any less yellow or any more blue. Misleading people, or flat out lying, by saying that “death-panels” will be set up, or as Mitch McConnell said, “This bill will lead to a gov’t takeover of Medicare,” (already a gov’t program of course) doesn’t give people the facts. There are legitimate reasons to question the bill. I wish the candor would’ve played out to give people facts and allow them to decide for themselves. Unfortunately fear was used, and fear struck out.[/quote]

Excellent post.

Mufasa

57

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
How can you claim to be pro-life when you care more about saving a few fucking dollars? WTF!? And please inform me with the rest of the world, as to how ‘public funded abortions’ will EVER drive abortion totals down?

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

. . . . from a purely monetary standpoint we can’t afford to NOT abort unwanted children . . . . [/quote]
[/quote]

The quote from me that you cited was not indicative of my own feelings toward abortion at all; it was simply made to illustrate a point. I think the Dems are foolhardy to even attempt to put anything relating to abortion into this bill. You misunderstood what I was getting at, which I expected and is precisely why I declared my stance against abortion; I was playing devil’s advocate to an extent but you clearly missed that point.

58

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
How can you claim to be pro-life when you care more about saving a few fucking dollars? WTF!? And please inform me with the rest of the world, as to how ‘public funded abortions’ will EVER drive abortion totals down?

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

. . . . from a purely monetary standpoint we can’t afford to NOT abort unwanted children . . . . [/quote]
[/quote]

Also, I never claimed to care more about money than lives and I never made the assertion that publicly-funded abortions will drive abortions down. Your reading comprehension skills are severely lacking. In fact, I care more about lives than money, which is why I support healthcare reform. I’d much rather have my taxes go toward a healthcare system that will enable people much poorer than myself to receive medical attention when needed than to have my taxes go toward a defunct war in Iraq, a devolving war in Afghanistan, crooked lending institutions or incompetent auto companies.

My initial post that you refer to was simply an attempt to use the same logic that the “baby killer” yeller ostensibly uses to decry abortion to point out the inherent hypocrisy in fighting tooth and nail against healthcare reform. But I guess I didn’t make this point clearly enough for you.

59

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
<<< Excellent post.

Mufasa[/quote]
I couldn’t disagree more. I bet you’re not surprised =]

Come on don’t lemme down. Here’s the part where you ask me how I could possibly be comfortable with this fine lady’s untimely demise. How could I be so heartless as to prefer that her husband and children lose her in the middle of her life? How could anybody who is all the time preaching all this Christian stuff allow her to die when the means to save her abounded in this society of plenty? Where is my heart? What is wrong with people who would watch someone die over money?