Telling Other People How to Parent

anon50325502 · June 9, 2015, 9:30pm

[quote]TooHuman wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]TooHuman wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
A woman will never, ever, understand what it is like to be kicked square in the nuts.

A man will never, ever, understand what it is like to get their period.

This isn’t fucking rocket science. [/quote]

It’s not rocket science because it’s epistemology.[/quote]

A man can’t have knowledge of what a period feels like…[/quote]
This is only true if sense data is the ONLY form of knowledge.

Do you believe that all information that is acquired through anecdotal and empirical evidence is invalid and is not knowledge?[/quote]

No, I never use the word “all.”

What I am saying is that you, as a man, assuming you are a man, can read and collect all of the anecdotal and empirical evidence about menstruation you want, but you will never understand what it is like to personally have a period.

TooHuman · June 9, 2015, 9:59pm

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]TooHuman wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]TooHuman wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
A woman will never, ever, understand what it is like to be kicked square in the nuts.

A man will never, ever, understand what it is like to get their period.

This isn’t fucking rocket science. [/quote]

It’s not rocket science because it’s epistemology.[/quote]

A man can’t have knowledge of what a period feels like…[/quote]
This is only true if sense data is the ONLY form of knowledge.

Do you believe that all information that is acquired through anecdotal and empirical evidence is invalid and is not knowledge?[/quote]

No, I never use the word “all.”

What I am saying is that you, as a man, assuming you are a man, can read and collect all of the anecdotal and empirical evidence about menstruation you want, but you will never understand what it is like to personally have a period. [/quote]

So you agree that anecdotal and empirical evidence is valid knowledge?

You changed your argument by adding the “personally have a period”, but I already demonstrated that I have knowledge of this through the anecdotal evidence of women describing what it is like to “personally have a period”.

If no knowledge can be gained without direct sense data than virtually all knowledge disappears from the world.

This is why children who haven’t yet learned to internalize knowledge through evidence will try to touch a hot stove no matter how many times it is explained to them.

In fact, having exactly this kind of discussion with a demonstration of the evidence is how you prepare for these potentially dangerous moments.

Steel_Nation · June 9, 2015, 10:55pm

[quote]on edge wrote:

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:

Safe sleep practices is the 1%, and I would only say something about that to people I know and care about.[/quote]

Can you elaborate on this (if not too personal)? I’m guessing you’ve had an up close experience with this. It seems odd that you might mind your own business if you see a parent smack his kid upside his head but would speak up about something like sleeping with a baby or putting a kid to sleep with some kind of choking hazard.[/quote]

Without telling the whole sob story, I lost a daughter to SIDS 2.5 years ago. My intent, when sharing safe sleep info with close friends and family, is to help ensure that they don’t.

Also, my friends and family almost universally err on the side of too little discipline. If anyone is heavy-handed, it’s me, and I’ve smacked my oldest 3 times in her life.

To revisit the OP, I should revise my original response to “I’ve never encountered a situation where I felt my intervention was necessary or would be productive” when dealing with strangers. Can’t really rule it out altogether though.

anon50325502 · June 9, 2015, 11:28pm

[quote]TooHuman wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]TooHuman wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]TooHuman wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
A woman will never, ever, understand what it is like to be kicked square in the nuts.

A man will never, ever, understand what it is like to get their period.

This isn’t fucking rocket science. [/quote]

It’s not rocket science because it’s epistemology.[/quote]

A man can’t have knowledge of what a period feels like…[/quote]
This is only true if sense data is the ONLY form of knowledge.

Do you believe that all information that is acquired through anecdotal and empirical evidence is invalid and is not knowledge?[/quote]

No, I never use the word “all.”

What I am saying is that you, as a man, assuming you are a man, can read and collect all of the anecdotal and empirical evidence about menstruation you want, but you will never understand what it is like to personally have a period. [/quote]

So you agree that anecdotal and empirical evidence is valid knowledge?

You changed your argument by adding the “personally have a period”, but I already demonstrated that I have knowledge of this through the anecdotal evidence of women describing what it is like to “personally have a period”.

If no knowledge can be gained without direct sense data than virtually all knowledge disappears from the world.

This is why children who haven’t yet learned to internalize knowledge through evidence will try to touch a hot stove no matter how many times it is explained to them.

In fact, having exactly this kind of discussion with a demonstration of the evidence is how you prepare for these potentially dangerous moments.

[/quote]

Ah, no I didn’t. Try reading the actual posts. Note the words I specifically put in bold.

anon71262119 · June 10, 2015, 12:08am

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:

[quote]on edge wrote:

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:

Safe sleep practices is the 1%, and I would only say something about that to people I know and care about.[/quote]

Can you elaborate on this (if not too personal)? I’m guessing you’ve had an up close experience with this. It seems odd that you might mind your own business if you see a parent smack his kid upside his head but would speak up about something like sleeping with a baby or putting a kid to sleep with some kind of choking hazard.[/quote]

Without telling the whole sob story, I lost a daughter to SIDS 2.5 years ago. My intent, when sharing safe sleep info with close friends and family, is to help ensure that they don’t.

Also, my friends and family almost universally err on the side of too little discipline. If anyone is heavy-handed, it’s me, and I’ve smacked my oldest 3 times in her life.

To revisit the OP, I should revise my original response to “I’ve never encountered a situation where I felt my intervention was necessary or would be productive” when dealing with strangers. Can’t really rule it out altogether though.[/quote]

I’m very sorry for your loss.

In a similar vein, I completely agree. Medical issues are an exception.

I’m a school psychologist and I sometimes notice young children who have speech delays or other issues out in the community. Still, I do not give advice unless I’m asked, or have enough rapport and friendship with the parents to carefully ask some questions to open a conversation.

I can only think of a couple of exceptions where I might intervene. For example, if I saw a child with what looked like absence (petit mal) seizures, I’d feel obligated to tell the parents that they might want to see a physician. I had an experience at work where a teacher thought one of her second graders was daydreaming and seemed to have ADD. When I observed him, I was able to see that he was actually having brief seizures.

Similarly, if you were a soccer coach and noticed that a kid on your team began to have an awkward gait or seemed to have weakness on one side that wasn’t there before, you’d want to tell the parent that they may want to see a doctor. I know of a pediatrician who noticed an unusual gait pattern in a child at a restaurant. The little girl turned out to have a brain tumor. Her willingness to say something to the parents may have saved the child’s life.

Aside from abuse or some kind of medical situation, unsolicited advice is unlikely to be helpful or well received, particularly if your intention is to scold or correct another parent.

People in my community know I’m a psychologist, so I get asked for advice often. This week a man I lift with asked me for advice about his 3-year-old who seems to have a speech delay, and another friend mentioned emotional swings in her kindergartener.

Even when I’m asked, it’s still something to approach with kindness and sensitivity, and as a mutual problem solving situation. All kids are different. There’s rarely one solution that works with every child.

HeavyTriple · June 10, 2015, 12:10am

I meaaaan, if you’re a Christian scientist refusing to treat your child’s legitimate medical conditions with anything but prayer, then yea, I’ll happily call you an idiot. Likewise for zealous anti-vaxxers, who are typically on the complete opposite end of the spectrum. Outside of that, I don’t begin to speak with authority on parenting. If someone wants to defend whipping a kid with a belt or something and solicits my opinion then I’ll give it, but otherwise I’m content to stay mum.

CLUNK · June 10, 2015, 12:31am

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:

[quote]on edge wrote:

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:

Safe sleep practices is the 1%, and I would only say something about that to people I know and care about.[/quote]

Can you elaborate on this (if not too personal)? I’m guessing you’ve had an up close experience with this. It seems odd that you might mind your own business if you see a parent smack his kid upside his head but would speak up about something like sleeping with a baby or putting a kid to sleep with some kind of choking hazard.[/quote]

Without telling the whole sob story, I lost a daughter to SIDS 2.5 years ago. My intent, when sharing safe sleep info with close friends and family, is to help ensure that they don’t.

Also, my friends and family almost universally err on the side of too little discipline. If anyone is heavy-handed, it’s me, and I’ve smacked my oldest 3 times in her life.

To revisit the OP, I should revise my original response to “I’ve never encountered a situation where I felt my intervention was necessary or would be productive” when dealing with strangers. Can’t really rule it out altogether though.[/quote]

Aw, man. So sorry to hear this, SN.

doogie · June 10, 2015, 1:52am

What prompted this thread?

PonyWhisperer · June 10, 2015, 2:26am

Parenting is for the most part one of those jobs that doesn’t let you know how you’ve done until years after your last “shift” of full time work is over. I know many people that thought they did a bang up job until their kid goes to jail or rehab, and some parents that kick themselves in the ass for their failures and have kids that are happily married doctors, teachers and soldiers.

I do think it is pretty obnoxious for a person to tell others how to parent (even if they have their own kids) because it rarely works out well for any of the parties involved. In 2007 I yelled at a woman in a grocery store for blasting her toddler in the face with a full on open hand slap. I have 2 kids of my own and couldn’t imagine what a toddler could do to warrant this parental response. So we yelled back and forth a bit, I threatened her with a 911 call, we had a pretty heated exchange when lo and behold her husband comes back from the frozen food section and he is not amused. Thirty minutes later he and I are both in handcuffs, the child is on his way home with his mother and if history is any judge to how this turned out, that kid is probably still getting the shit smacked out of him today.

I would still talk to the parent if it happened today, just not as judgementally. As the veteran dad of a 13 year old girl and 10 year old boy I can see that sometimes parents just lose their shit (which is why God made squat racks) and while I won’t ever hit my kids (unless Zombies) I can see why someone might.

on_edge · June 10, 2015, 2:33am

[quote]doogie wrote:
What prompted this thread?[/quote]

lol I get the impression Beans is scratching his head and wondering the same thing.

on_edge · June 10, 2015, 2:35am

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:

[quote]on edge wrote:

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:

Safe sleep practices is the 1%, and I would only say something about that to people I know and care about.[/quote]

Can you elaborate on this (if not too personal)? I’m guessing you’ve had an up close experience with this. It seems odd that you might mind your own business if you see a parent smack his kid upside his head but would speak up about something like sleeping with a baby or putting a kid to sleep with some kind of choking hazard.[/quote]

Without telling the whole sob story, I lost a daughter to SIDS 2.5 years ago. My intent, when sharing safe sleep info with close friends and family, is to help ensure that they don’t.

Also, my friends and family almost universally err on the side of too little discipline. If anyone is heavy-handed, it’s me, and I’ve smacked my oldest 3 times in her life.

To revisit the OP, I should revise my original response to “I’ve never encountered a situation where I felt my intervention was necessary or would be productive” when dealing with strangers. Can’t really rule it out altogether though.[/quote]

I’m sorry to hear this Steel. The thought of losing a child scares the shit out of me.

PonyWhisperer · June 10, 2015, 2:39am

[quote]TooHuman wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]TooHuman wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
TooHuman, if I recall correctly you aren’t a parent, right?

[/quote]

No I’m not, but you know that’s non-sequiter and continue to use the fallacy of an appeal to authority anyway.

You wouldn’t agree that the following arguments are valid right?

“I’m going to bet, that whole sale (like 90%) of people agreeing with you in any of the comments you’re making on this thread are men.”

"Yes, as most women understand what being a woman is like, unlike someone who’s not a woman, so they reserve judgment. "

“I do believe that you need to be a woman to truly understand what it means to woman.”

None of those are valid rational criticisms of an argument about the actions of women and the same applies to parents.[/quote]

No, all of them are in fact rational criticisms… But please, feel free to explain to the class what getting your period is like. Please describe the emotion in detail. [/quote]

See the thing about the scientific method and empiricism is that you can easily gather even qualitative evidence without having to experience it personally.
This is why in science empirical evidence(when available) always supersedes anecdotal evidence and the same can be applied to universalizing ethical principals.
For example here is anecdotal evidence from 21 women:

Here is a meta-analysis on the habitual, psychological, and behavioral experiences of women:
http://universityofsoutherncalifornia.createsend1.com/t/ViewEmail/j/ADD47DFBEA32FEE0[/quote]

TooHuman,

You seem like a level headed guy, but your example here is terrible. Qualitative evidence is notoriously inaccurate due to a myriad of factors, not limited to the interpretation of language, education level of reporting individuals, life history of the sample group etc. Plus the first “data group” at one point uses a Game of Thrones character to describe what her symptoms feel like. A man will never “know” what a period feels like, just like if I interviewed all the living astronauts I would know what space feels like (until I eventually finish my yard rocket and go to space.). By the way one woman compares the pain of her period to having someone grab your balls and squeeze, which is just confusing since she has no balls and no idea what that feels like either. The second article you linked basically says that all previous studies on the issues of womens mating urges and menstrual cycle correlations are bunk so I’m not sure why it’s there. If you’re trying to show that data exists to prove that we can “know” how something feels without actually feeling it well I find that to be a bit misleading. We may be able to assign a rough idea to something, but since we all experience things differently (sex, pain, grief etc) or at least at different levels it seems like you are trying to make something out of nothing.

on_edge · June 10, 2015, 2:51am

[quote]TooHuman wrote:

[quote]on edge wrote:
Before kids, my wife once had a discussion with my sister in law about our nephews. My wife was telling Sister-in-law just to make one meal for the family and if the kids don’t like it, tuff. My sister in law said she can’t let her kids go to bed hungry and my wife explained it would only happen a time or two and the kids would learn to eat their dinner.

Fast forward to us having our own kids…

My wife cooks a different meal for everyone in the family every night.[/quote]
So you wife chose to treat your kids with kindness and respect their desires as human beings instead of using force, threats, and punishment.

This is all a fantastic sign of empathy as a mother that I wish more people would emulate. :)[/quote]

You can very kindly and respectfully tell a child “this is what we are having for dinner tonight. You don’t have to eat it if you don’t want to.”

It’s actually not true that my wife cooks everyone a meal every night. She doesn’t make the younger kids dinner until they ask for it and they often forget to ask before she goes to bed. That means they ask me and I’m often getting ready for bed myself so I just say “sorry hon, I’m going to bed”, and they are fine with that.

I then lay in bed listening to the sounds of my eight year old kitchen ninja (it runs in the family - the ninja part that is) hopping up on the counters doing his thing to concoct whatever the heck he and his sister agreed upon.

TooHuman · June 10, 2015, 3:16am

[quote]on edge wrote:

[quote]TooHuman wrote:

[quote]on edge wrote:
Before kids, my wife once had a discussion with my sister in law about our nephews. My wife was telling Sister-in-law just to make one meal for the family and if the kids don’t like it, tuff. My sister in law said she can’t let her kids go to bed hungry and my wife explained it would only happen a time or two and the kids would learn to eat their dinner.

Fast forward to us having our own kids…

My wife cooks a different meal for everyone in the family every night.[/quote]
So you wife chose to treat your kids with kindness and respect their desires as human beings instead of using force, threats, and punishment.

This is all a fantastic sign of empathy as a mother that I wish more people would emulate. :)[/quote]

You can very kindly and respectfully tell a child “this is what we are having for dinner tonight. You don’t have to eat it if you don’t want to.”

It’s actually not true that my wife cooks everyone a meal every night. She doesn’t make the younger kids dinner until they ask for it and they often forget to ask before she goes to bed. That means they ask me and I’m often getting ready for bed myself so I just say “sorry hon, I’m going to bed”, and they are fine with that.

I then lay in bed listening to the sounds of my eight year old kitchen ninja (it runs in the family - the ninja part that is) hopping up on the counters doing his thing to concoct whatever the heck he and his sister agreed upon.[/quote]

Yep. Being non-violent doesn’t mean always ceding to your children s demands.
You guys are infinitely more laudable than the average parent who will immediately escalate to threats and force.

TooHuman · June 10, 2015, 3:22am

[quote]PonyWhisperer wrote:
Parenting is for the most part one of those jobs that doesn’t let you know how you’ve done until years after your last “shift” of full time work is over. I know many people that thought they did a bang up job until their kid goes to jail or rehab, and some parents that kick themselves in the ass for their failures and have kids that are happily married doctors, teachers and soldiers.

I do think it is pretty obnoxious for a person to tell others how to parent (even if they have their own kids) because it rarely works out well for any of the parties involved. In 2007 I yelled at a woman in a grocery store for blasting her toddler in the face with a full on open hand slap. I have 2 kids of my own and couldn’t imagine what a toddler could do to warrant this parental response. So we yelled back and forth a bit, I threatened her with a 911 call, we had a pretty heated exchange when lo and behold her husband comes back from the frozen food section and he is not amused. Thirty minutes later he and I are both in handcuffs, the child is on his way home with his mother and if history is any judge to how this turned out, that kid is probably still getting the shit smacked out of him today.

I would still talk to the parent if it happened today, just not as judgementally. As the veteran dad of a 13 year old girl and 10 year old boy I can see that sometimes parents just lose their shit (which is why God made squat racks) and while I won’t ever hit my kids (unless Zombies) I can see why someone might.

[/quote]

I’m sorry you got arrested man, but you definitely did the right thing.
Most of the time parents hit their kids because they “lose their shit”.
The notion that parents are generally capable of calmly “disciplining” their kids most of the time has been debunked in research thoroughly and if you start with anything less than “i’ll never hit my kids”, the odds are you will fall thousands of emotionally charged smacks short of that goal.

Stay strong man. I wish you all the best.

ouroboro_s · June 10, 2015, 3:34am

It doesn’t take a ton of life experience to come to the realization that intellectual education or knowledge is light years away from actual experience knowledge.

There are many things and situations that I can empathize with but not truly understand until I experience it. To believe otherwise is a slick bit of self deception.

Parenting itself is a good example. When I was expecting my oldest child I was inundated with information and spent a good deal of time researching and thought I had my head wrapped around what it meant to be a parent. It wasn’t until I had a bawling infant at home, depending completely upon me for survival that I began to grasp what it actually meant. Over 20 years later, I’m still learning as that bawling child continues to test me.

In addition to that, each of us experiences life differently. Data and anecdotal information from outside sources will never touch the level of understanding achieved through living an experience.

Much of that knowledge is gleaned from life.

TooHuman · June 10, 2015, 3:37am

[quote]PonyWhisperer wrote: