Teachers and Politics

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
For 35K per year (versus 55K for an engineer starting), you’re bound to get more people who would do stuff like in the original post. Pay more, get more.

A teacher of 25 years should be making at least $100,000 per year. You’d have far fewer dolts and morons for that kind of money.

Now watch…someone will talk about “I knew so-and-so years ago who sucked…and you want to pay them $100,000!”, not realizing that the person would not have been there, if teacher pay was decent.[/quote]

Why should someone be paid that?[/quote]

Because cause-and-effect can’t be ignored forever. If you want world-class educators, you have to pay for them.

There’s a reason why K-Mart sells cheap crap. Its cheap.

Tiffany’s isn’t cheap. Rolex is not $24.95. Why does someone want great effect (an educated populace) without a cause? That is irrational.

42

[quote]Rockscar wrote:

[quote]Jfbalabama wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Jfbalabama wrote:

[quote]JLu wrote:
I’m more concerned that students are still learning about angles and parallel lines in their senior year.[/quote]

Its Alabama our school system sucks, hell in my senior year my final exam in english was on Monty Python and the holy grail[/quote]

So how did you do on the test? I guess you recieved that water pistle in your avatar as a parting gift? I am just kidding.[/quote]

I passed the one good thing about that class was it introduced me to the awesomeness of Monty Python, Somehow i failed my term paper on Army of Darkness though, but i think thats just because the bitch teacher cant comprehend the badassity of bruce campbell.
[/quote]

Looks like you have a fine school system. Watch movies for an English class. Yep. 'Merica today.
[/quote]

We do that in NZ too. As I recall, we watched Billy Elliot, Casablanca, Rosebud, that god awful modernization of Romeo and Juliet with Leonardo DiCaprio, and a Midsummer Night’s Dream (no not the porno).

Although I can see your point if I change your wording to be critical of the quality of movies being watched as opposed to just watching them.

43

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
For 35K per year (versus 55K for an engineer starting), you’re bound to get more people who would do stuff like in the original post. Pay more, get more.

A teacher of 25 years should be making at least $100,000 per year. You’d have far fewer dolts and morons for that kind of money.

Now watch…someone will talk about “I knew so-and-so years ago who sucked…and you want to pay them $100,000!”, not realizing that the person would not have been there, if teacher pay was decent.[/quote]

You are so full of shit.

100k??? To teach? To work for ten fucking months? No way.

Then you have exactly what’s going on in NJ, where these goddamn teachers are pulling massive salaris on the taxpayer’s dime and fucking property taxes. [/quote]

Then you have exactly what’s going on in AZ, CA, NM, TX where these illegals are pulling massive welfare benefits on the taxpayer’s dime and f’n property taxes.[/quote]

Huh?

This is probably sarcasm, but I don’t get it.

44

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
For 35K per year (versus 55K for an engineer starting), you’re bound to get more people who would do stuff like in the original post. Pay more, get more.

A teacher of 25 years should be making at least $100,000 per year. You’d have far fewer dolts and morons for that kind of money.

Now watch…someone will talk about “I knew so-and-so years ago who sucked…and you want to pay them $100,000!”, not realizing that the person would not have been there, if teacher pay was decent.[/quote]

You are so full of shit.

100k??? To teach? To work for ten fucking months? No way.

Then you have exactly what’s going on in NJ, where these goddamn teachers are pulling massive salaris on the taxpayer’s dime and fucking property taxes. [/quote]

I seriously doubt that paying teachers higher would attract better teachers. The district I’m in now pays about twice as much as the district I originally taught in. I don’t see a higher quality. Plus I have June and July to supplement my incomes while getting a week vacation for Thanksgiving, Spring Break, and two weeks for Christmas.

Teacher pay has very little to do with the quality of education in America.

45

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:
When I taught in North Carolina, I had to give the kids a final exam even though they knew our grades had been due like 2 days earlier (meaning the exams counted for nothing). I gave them a word search final exam with like 100 words on it. To my surprise pretty much all of them at least tried to finish it. Then we watched a movie.[/quote]

Did you all watch Monty Python and the Holy Grail?[/quote]

No, I believe it was Disorderlies with the Fat Boys.

46

[quote]Otep wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
For 35K per year (versus 55K for an engineer starting), you’re bound to get more people who would do stuff like in the original post. Pay more, get more.

A teacher of 25 years should be making at least $100,000 per year. You’d have far fewer dolts and morons for that kind of money.

Now watch…someone will talk about “I knew so-and-so years ago who sucked…and you want to pay them $100,000!”, not realizing that the person would not have been there, if teacher pay was decent.[/quote]

You are so full of shit.

100k??? To teach? To work for ten fucking months? No way.

Then you have exactly what’s going on in NJ, where these goddamn teachers are pulling massive salaris on the taxpayer’s dime and fucking property taxes. [/quote]

Then you have exactly what’s going on in AZ, CA, NM, TX where these illegals are pulling massive welfare benefits on the taxpayer’s dime and f’n property taxes.[/quote]

Huh?

This is probably sarcasm, but I don’t get it. [/quote]

It is purely sarcasim. FightingIrish is always saying the illegals, I’m sorry undocumented workers, are here for the work, but then he really hates the teachers for wanting more pay, when the illegals, I’m sorry undocumented workers, are receiving more money in benefits than the teachers are getting for a full days worth of work. Some think they are overpaid, some think they are overpaid, but I guess that is still up for argument.

47

[quote]BBriere wrote:

I seriously doubt that paying teachers higher would attract better teachers.
[/quote]

Why are teachers the exception? Isn’t it always the case that price and supply are linked? Admittedly, we’d also have to tackle the unions, but at the core HH is actually right about this.

48

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:

I seriously doubt that paying teachers higher would attract better teachers.
[/quote]

Why are teachers the exception? Isn’t it always the case that price and supply are linked? Admittedly, we’d also have to tackle the unions, but at the core HH is actually right about this. [/quote]

Its true we get a lot of time off and pensions and such. The unions cut this deal and the government bureaucrats (all of 'em are scum, btw) cut this deal to keep taxes lower. The problem is that the low pay discourages real performers, the profession spirals downward, and so on.

Low pay doesn’t put a new transmission in a car or a new roof on the house. It doesn’t pay for the teacher’s kid to go to college, so either pay goes up or essentially the public school system dies (which it is kind of doing now).

We need vouchers and merit pay. We need to charge tuition to public schools, above and beyond the taxes (parents who use public schools pay extra.). I’ll hold my breath until the Dems do anything that way…NOT.

49

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:

I seriously doubt that paying teachers higher would attract better teachers.
[/quote]

Why are teachers the exception? Isn’t it always the case that price and supply are linked? Admittedly, we’d also have to tackle the unions, but at the core HH is actually right about this. [/quote]

I’m not saying that teachers should be paid rock bottom. Afterall, I do it for a living. I consider myself to make a pretty good living. I own a house, a car, have a good retirement plan, health insurance, and still always have money left over for fun/waste. I would much rather see money being spent on real improvements and reform in education than on a $500 pay raise. All I see in my school are kids that have been trained to take a test from 3rd grade on who can get away with murder because the school wants its attendance rates up.

50

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:

I seriously doubt that paying teachers higher would attract better teachers.
[/quote]

Why are teachers the exception? Isn’t it always the case that price and supply are linked? Admittedly, we’d also have to tackle the unions, but at the core HH is actually right about this. [/quote]

They’re not. The situation is exceptional though, because the American government has a virtual monopoly on the education sector, while mandating it as a good every youth should consume (which is curious, in light of the Obamacare suits), and for the most part, kowtowing to teachers unions.

Private and charter schools deliver a better product, usually cheaper than public schools. Teacher’s wages are not always higher. Performance-pay may be a part of sensible educational reform, but it’s far from the only part.

51

[quote]Otep wrote:

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:

I seriously doubt that paying teachers higher would attract better teachers.
[/quote]

Why are teachers the exception? Isn’t it always the case that price and supply are linked? Admittedly, we’d also have to tackle the unions, but at the core HH is actually right about this. [/quote]

They’re not. The situation is exceptional though, because the American government has a virtual monopoly on the education sector, while mandating it as a good every youth should consume (which is curious, in light of the Obamacare suits), and for the most part, kowtowing to teachers unions.

Private and charter schools deliver a better product, usually cheaper than public schools. Teacher’s wages are not always higher. Performance-pay may be a part of sensible educational reform, but it’s far from the only part.[/quote]

Of course it’s not the only part. But I think it’s difficult to move forward without that piece.

Also, I think it’s difficult to compare public and private schools. Mostly because of the difference in parental involvement. Almost no parent who is paying good money will allow their kid to completely F’ around in school … that’d be money down the drain. Unfortunately, MANY (I’m afraid to say) parents at private schools see them as “free” and don’t care what their kids do at all. In short, the “inputs” are not the same.

52

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

[quote]Otep wrote:

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:

I seriously doubt that paying teachers higher would attract better teachers.
[/quote]

Why are teachers the exception? Isn’t it always the case that price and supply are linked? Admittedly, we’d also have to tackle the unions, but at the core HH is actually right about this. [/quote]

They’re not. The situation is exceptional though, because the American government has a virtual monopoly on the education sector, while mandating it as a good every youth should consume (which is curious, in light of the Obamacare suits), and for the most part, kowtowing to teachers unions.

Private and charter schools deliver a better product, usually cheaper than public schools. Teacher’s wages are not always higher. Performance-pay may be a part of sensible educational reform, but it’s far from the only part.[/quote]

Of course it’s not the only part. But I think it’s difficult to move forward without that piece.

Also, I think it’s difficult to compare public and private schools. Mostly because of the difference in parental involvement. Almost no parent who is paying good money will allow their kid to completely F’ around in school … that’d be money down the drain. Unfortunately, MANY (I’m afraid to say) parents at private schools see them as “free” and don’t care what their kids do at all. In short, the “inputs” are not the same.
[/quote]

I have taught at public and at private (now) and the difference between levels of parental involvement is striking. For ex, I have actually had parents grab kids by the ear in front of me (that one more than a few times) or take their car keys right out of their hand for things that, at a public school, the parent would simply shrug. Had one kid nearly go apoplectic as I started dialing his dad’s cell phone number (that one was hilarious).

When people hand over a check, they care. They get involved. We need something like that at the publics.

53

Easy solution for the education system - abolish the Department of education - give control of education standards back to the states and give complete control of the school back to the local community. A community must choose and pay it owns teachers, allocate resources for its school budget and control both the cost and quality of its education system.

The whole idea of sending your money to the Fed government(who takes a huge chunkc of it) and then sends it to the state education department (who takes a huge chunk of it) and who then sends it to the local school board (who takes another chunk of it) to pay for unionized teachers (who are taking another chunk of it) so they can spend what’s left on your local school by investing in buildings and programs and eventually on teaching resources and materials and final teacher’s salaries . . . RIDICULOUS!!

Each community need to take direct control of funding and controlling the quality of its own schools - direct cost, no more of this indirect, hidden cost BS - if your kids do not choose to go to that school, you are free to spend your educational monies elsewhere. It is a proven fact - the more you spend on education the less quality of a product you get in the long run - Look at DC schools for a prime example! most funds allocatd per student and worst academic performance in the country.

54

The State of Texas constitution states that the state will provide all funds for schools. Well we have local property taxes that also help fund schools. If the state was able to pay for schools all by themselves then the local property taxes wound not be necessary. The state also takes into consideration the amount of property taxes a distric collects in how they distribute the state funds to schools. They want everything equal. The purpose of property taxes is so that families can pay extra to the school distric for better schools. These are just my $0.02

I liked your post IrishSteel. The Federal, State, and Unions take a huge chunk of the money that should be going to the schools and a child’s education.

55

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Easy solution for the education system - abolish the Department of education - give control of education standards back to the states and give complete control of the school back to the local community. A community must choose and pay it owns teachers, allocate resources for its school budget and control both the cost and quality of its education system.

The whole idea of sending your money to the Fed government(who takes a huge chunkc of it) and then sends it to the state education department (who takes a huge chunk of it) and who then sends it to the local school board (who takes another chunk of it) to pay for unionized teachers (who are taking another chunk of it) so they can spend what’s left on your local school by investing in buildings and programs and eventually on teaching resources and materials and final teacher’s salaries . . . RIDICULOUS!!

Each community need to take direct control of funding and controlling the quality of its own schools - direct cost, no more of this indirect, hidden cost BS - if your kids do not choose to go to that school, you are free to spend your educational monies elsewhere. It is a proven fact - the more you spend on education the less quality of a product you get in the long run - Look at DC schools for a prime example! most funds allocatd per student and worst academic performance in the country.[/quote]

I agree and disagree with certain statements. First, I think we need a more uniform national curriculum. Here in Texas we got a bunch of kids that had performed proficient from Louisiana, but they scored terribly on our state exam. We have plenty of kids that can pass our state exam but score extremely low on the Iowa basics test. There should not be that much discrency between state tests.

DC schools are a prime example of wasteful spending. Teaching is about the only profession that I know of where performance pay is a dirty word. I’m a better teacher than my first year because I have more experience. The pay has nothing to do with it. If my salary was doubled tomorrow I wouldn’t become twice as good at my job. I’ve worked with first and second year teachers that make 10+ year vets look bad. Yet, the vets are getting paid more just becaue they’ve been there longer. Think about it. If sports used that logic Jamie Moyer of the Phillies would be pulling down tons more than somebody like Albert Pujols.

56

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Easy solution for the education system - abolish the Department of education - give control of education standards back to the states and give complete control of the school back to the local community. A community must choose and pay it owns teachers, allocate resources for its school budget and control both the cost and quality of its education system.

[/quote]

A family member of mine moved from the North to “the” Georgia backwoods to “give back” in her later years. Part of her job was to…I kid you not… explain to schools that if they continued to beat students the would no longer receive federal funds. “But you (northerners) just can’t understand our culture” she was told.

…

Why did I support NCLB? Why do I still support it? Because now you have to actually account for the students you “don’t really” want to account for (and who weren’t being accounted for in previous years).

There’s plenty of problems with the current system. It’s hard for me to see how removing the DOE from the equation would help though.

…I’m half asleep, so maybe this doesn’t make any sense, or maybe I write more clearly when I’m half gone…

57

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Easy solution for the education system - abolish the Department of education - give control of education standards back to the states and give complete control of the school back to the local community. A community must choose and pay it owns teachers, allocate resources for its school budget and control both the cost and quality of its education system.

[/quote]

A family member of mine moved from the North to “the” Georgia backwoods to “give back” in her later years. Part of her job was to…I kid you not… explain to schools that if they continued to beat students the would no longer receive federal funds. “But you (northerners) just can’t understand our culture” she was told.

…

Why did I support NCLB? Why do I still support it? Because now you have to actually account for the students you “don’t really” want to account for (and who weren’t being accounted for in previous years).

There’s plenty of problems with the current system. It’s hard for me to see how removing the DOE from the equation would help though.

…I’m half asleep, so maybe this doesn’t make any sense, or maybe I write more clearly when I’m half gone…[/quote]

I was raised in rural Georgia and this was unheard of even 20 years ago - when did she move to Georgia - 1890’s?

58

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Easy solution for the education system - abolish the Department of education - give control of education standards back to the states and give complete control of the school back to the local community. A community must choose and pay it owns teachers, allocate resources for its school budget and control both the cost and quality of its education system.

[/quote]

A family member of mine moved from the North to “the” Georgia backwoods to “give back” in her later years. Part of her job was to…I kid you not… explain to schools that if they continued to beat students the would no longer receive federal funds. “But you (northerners) just can’t understand our culture” she was told.

…

Why did I support NCLB? Why do I still support it? Because now you have to actually account for the students you “don’t really” want to account for (and who weren’t being accounted for in previous years).

There’s plenty of problems with the current system. It’s hard for me to see how removing the DOE from the equation would help though.

…I’m half asleep, so maybe this doesn’t make any sense, or maybe I write more clearly when I’m half gone…[/quote]

I was raised in rural Georgia and this was unheard of even 20 years ago - when did she move to Georgia - 1890’s?[/quote]

I can say the same thing.

59

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Easy solution for the education system - abolish the Department of education - give control of education standards back to the states and give complete control of the school back to the local community. A community must choose and pay it owns teachers, allocate resources for its school budget and control both the cost and quality of its education system.

[/quote]

A family member of mine moved from the North to “the” Georgia backwoods to “give back” in her later years. Part of her job was to…I kid you not… explain to schools that if they continued to beat students the would no longer receive federal funds. “But you (northerners) just can’t understand our culture” she was told.

…

Why did I support NCLB? Why do I still support it? Because now you have to actually account for the students you “don’t really” want to account for (and who weren’t being accounted for in previous years).

There’s plenty of problems with the current system. It’s hard for me to see how removing the DOE from the equation would help though.

…I’m half asleep, so maybe this doesn’t make any sense, or maybe I write more clearly when I’m half gone…[/quote]

I was raised in rural Georgia and this was unheard of even 20 years ago - when did she move to Georgia - 1890’s?[/quote]

I can say the same thing.[/quote]

How can Granny “give back” and work for the government at the same time?

60

I work with teachers that have literally not taught the kids anything new in 2 months. They began reviewing for the state wide test 2 to 3 weeks before the kids took it and have been reviewing for district exams since. On top of that the math curriculum changes very little from 5th through 8th grade. So basically the kids effectively stop learning any real math after 5th grade since most flunk the high school exams.