I’ve had a number of different protocols since starting TRT in 2019. My E2 runs high, but the only “high estrogen” symptom I’ve noticed until recently was excessive emotion (crying). I haven’t messed around with AIs.
1.5 months ago, I switched from T-cyp to T-prop. For the first time, I’ve had sensitive nipples and have noticed my body is holding extra water; I’ve looked bloated. I suppose this makes some sense given the ester length (shorter ester with prop would hit one’s system faster), but I do find this a little odd because my cyp dose was much higher (308/week) than my current prop dose (175/week), so I expect my E2 was higher on cyp than it is now.
My next labs aren’t until May (sorry), but I’m curious: Anyone have ideas why this is the case?
Note: I haven’t been over-the-top emotional on prop, but I also haven’t felt as good in terms of mood or libido.
How were dosing the cypionate and how are you taking the propionate? What is the source of your testosterone? What are typical testosterone and estradiol levels?
Curious why the switch? Prop typically is more painful. Also remember that Prop is also more potent than Cyp due to the ester but not enough to make up the gap in dosage
I was injecting 88 mg of cypionate EOD (308/week), and 25 mg of propionate ED (175/week). All from Empower.
My last labs were on 220/week of T-cyp. I run high-SHBG (180 pre-TRT), so my TT is always quite high. On my last test it was >1500 and FT was 23.8. E2 was only 40, though it usually is around 60.
I’d read that some guys get better libido effects from prop, so after four years with mixed results on cyp – good overall, but not great when it comes to libido – I wanted to try it out and see if I found the same thing in myself.
Definitely true. I’m trying to be careful, however, about the potential desensitization of dopamine receptors due to excessive T dosage. I might feel great in terms of mood on 308/week, but I don’t think that’s healthy long term.
Do you think such a high dose (308) is concerning given the potential for dopamine receptor desensitization? Lipids are also always a concern. I agree (and so does my doctor) that a high dose is likely necessary for someone with such a high SHBG, especially if no other medications (e.g., danazol, oxandrolone) are involved, but I am striving to be mindful of long-term health and not get caught up in all the “take a massive dose of T and nothing will go wrong” hype, which I think will prove over time to be problematic.
It has. I’ve experimented with adjunct medications (danazol, oxandrolone) and SHBG has dropped considerably, but I have never felt good with these involved. In fact, I always seem to get super irritable or depressed. With adjuncts, SHBG has gotten as low as 28. Without, it hovers around 70. On 220/week (most recent bloods), however, it was up at 110. I was surprised to see it back in the triple figures. That’s part of the reason we increased the dose to 308.
I understand the need for a higher dose, but I’m curious: why would a long ester be more conducive to treating a guy with high SHBG?
I’ve thought a lot about how one would end up with such a number. It seems ridiculous but was validated by multiple tests. TT was also around 1000 (so most doctors wouldn’t treat me.
My best guess: genetic tendency coupled with lifestyle factors. I had a healthy bodyweight/fat level and healthy habits. However, I ate low-carb, was undereating, and had a high level of stress from work. I might’ve been overtraining, too.
I think you add stuff like this to an unusual genetic profile and have a recipe for high SHBG.
Personally I don’t think it matters whether you do short or long ester. I think your dose just needs to be high enough to bring your FT to a decent number. Your likely experiencing new things on Prop simply from the dose change combined with the different peak timing from the shorter ester
My total cholesterol is 143. It was 135-160 on my earliest lipid panels, so not much has changed.
Interesting. On the whole, my HDL has consistently been lower on exogenous T – the highest I saw pre-TRT was 54 – but I suppose that doesn’t prove causality. Danazol didn’t affect my HDL much. Oxandrolone was the worst offender, taking it down to 24.
Your lipids have done the same thing as mine, though not to that extreme. Also, HDL has always been on the lower end of the spectrum to begin with for me.
I think you were just speeding up the inevitable while on Prop, feeling the e2 increase faster than you would on Cyp. I would be interested to see blood work on each protocol, on the same injection frequency, to see if this myth that short esters cause more e2 than longer esters holds any water.
Maybe I can get my hands on some prop and see it myself …
I don’t think I agree, because I was taking 308/cyp and didn’t notice anything like this (on 175/prop). Unless I’m misinterpreting your comment, that is.
I suspect it’s DUE to the Cyp dose. 6 weeks later the blood levels from the Cyp have dropped, and been substituted with just over half the dose, leaving a residual raised estrogen level, which WAS somewhat bandaided by the higher androgen level, now becoming more dominant.
I suspect it is a ratio issue, as well as a peak level issue.