There is a tv show that airs every Sunday morning here in CT called ‘Give Me an Answer’. The host is a pastor and great theologist who goes to major universities and answers TOUGH questions from students. He’s way better at explaining things than I am.
http://www.givemeananswer.org/main/home/index.html
Check it out.
[quote]Lorisco wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Hey, this thread is all well and good, but shouldn’t you guys be over on the Atheist site spreading the good news instead of holding up in here talking with yourselves?
Stop agitating.
Sorry Bro, but my mission is not to sit on my butt and feel good that I know the truth. My mission is to share it. If that agitates you, sorry. But the truth is out there and I will share it.
[/quote]
You would have to find it first. I am not going to fuck up this thread cause it is for the most part a very good thread of people who take their relgion seriously, but you are the last person that inspires and causes people to want to turn to God. Quite the opposite. Others here do not come across as abrasive and exhibit the worst aspects of relgious piety but rather inspire by their dedication and committment, rather than a holier-than-thou attitude seemingly couple with a sub-par intelligence that alienates and does nothing more.
To JP Bear and the rest of you participating in this excellent thread, I apologize and will make no further comments in that vein.
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
To JP Bear and the rest of you participating in this excellent thread, I apologize and will make no further comments in that vein.[/quote]
I think I know where you are coming from. If someone wants to be a Christian you don’t have any problem with that.
But if someone actually wants to live their faith and try to help others who are going down the wrong road, according to that faith, then you don’t like that much.
So quiet Christians are good-Outspoken ones are bad.
Got it.
It’s a shame Jesus Christ was so outspoken or you might be a believer.
I don’t normally respond to many threads but I felt the need to jump in here. I have many doubts and problems with religion. I was raised in a strict Baptist household and for years I believed everything that was spoonfed to me. Now things do not seem quite so clear to me. Why would a God who is perfect create man just so man should spend all of his time showering God with praise? Why does he need us to worship him? And if he loves us so much like the Bible tells us, why would he condemn us to enternal suffering in hell if we don’t do everything according to his will? Why would he do that?!?
My biggest problem is that you can only enter Heaven if you believe that Christ was killed for your sins. What about those who have died without knowing Christ? Children are born into cultures that have different beliefs and their parents do not teach them the ways of Christ. They never know they have to accept Christ. I have a hard time believing they are sent to hell for this.
I can’t believe that an all-loving God would do this.
A book that I just read that is very interesting is “Shakasta” by Dorris Lessing. Interesting take on the Creation Story.
CD
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
To JP Bear and the rest of you participating in this excellent thread, I apologize and will make no further comments in that vein.[/quote]
Such is the power of Lorisco, he can piss people off so much that he’ll ruin threads as a side effect of ruining other threads.
I apologize to all the Christians who feel their thread is being desecrated.
[quote]campdirector wrote:
I don’t normally respond to many threads but I felt the need to jump in here. I have many doubts and problems with religion. I was raised in a strict Baptist household and for years I believed everything that was spoonfed to me. Now things do not seem quite so clear to me. Why would a God who is perfect create man just so man should spend all of his time showering God with praise? Why does he need us to worship him? And if he loves us so much like the Bible tells us, why would he condemn us to enternal suffering in hell if we don’t do everything according to his will? Why would he do that?!?
My biggest problem is that you can only enter Heaven if you believe that Christ was killed for your sins. What about those who have died without knowing Christ? Children are born into cultures that have different beliefs and their parents do not teach them the ways of Christ. They never know they have to accept Christ. I have a hard time believing they are sent to hell for this.
I can’t believe that an all-loving God would do this.
A book that I just read that is very interesting is “Shakasta” by Dorris Lessing. Interesting take on the Creation Story.
CD[/quote]
I think the biggest problem with this line of thought is the assumption that humans deserve God’s love and forgiveness. The Bible says that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. The fact that God has provided his Son to atone for the sins of those who believe is just a testament to his mercy.
According to God’s perfect justice, death and hell are the appropriate consequences for my sin. Only when you truly understand the gravity of your sin (especially the sins of the heart, which each of us struggle with) and your inability to live a sin free life, can you see Jesus in the right light.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
To JP Bear and the rest of you participating in this excellent thread, I apologize and will make no further comments in that vein.
I think I know where you are coming from. If someone wants to be a Christian you don’t have any problem with that.
But if someone actually wants to live their faith and try to help others who are going down the wrong road, according to that faith, then you don’t like that much.
So quiet Christians are good-Outspoken ones are bad.
Got it.
It’s a shame Jesus Christ was so outspoken or you might be a believer.[/quote]
No, you don’t get it at all. I don’t mind people expressly wearing their religion on their sleeve and displaying it and trying to expose people and get them to adopt what they think is right. But there is a way of doing that still demonstrates respect for other people and their beliefs, religious and otherwise, even though one thinks their own are correct. And Lorisco does not do that. Others here and elsewhere do.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
It’s a shame Jesus Christ was so outspoken or you might be a believer.[/quote]
And you don’t know that I’m not a believer. Maybe I just don’t believe what you believe-that there’s only one right way and it’s the right and obligation of believers to coerce nonbelievers to it.
But I said I was done, and I should be, and I will be. Please no one respond and tempt me to keep this going.
[quote]CaptainLogic wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
To JP Bear and the rest of you participating in this excellent thread, I apologize and will make no further comments in that vein.
Such is the power of Lorisco, he can piss people off so much that he’ll ruin threads as a side effect of ruining other threads.
I apologize to all the Christians who feel their thread is being desecrated.[/quote]
I had stayed out of this thread for respect for those that wanted to talk about their religion.
Of course, Lorisco did a magnificient troll job on the atheists thread which caused the uproar here.
And Zeb, there’s nothing wrong with trying to help others out. But there is a fine line between “helping” and “forcing”. Namely going onto an atheists thread and reciting the scripture. If anyone turns to Christ because of Lorisco, god fucking help them
I for one never assumed that we deserve God’s forgivness. I just can’t understand why God would create us knowing full well that the vast majority of every human who ever existed would suffer eternal torment hell. That does not sound very loving to me. It sounds mean. I am not saying I do not believe in God. I think I do but I have too many questions. So many things about it just do not make sense. No one can ever answer me as to why. And why not just forgive us if he loves us. Why send Jesus to suffer so horribly.
CD
[quote]FamilyMan wrote:
scw2 wrote:
ConanSpeaks wrote:
I don’t understand why those of the “born again” persuasion use the King James Bible?
Could someone please provide a logical explaination for this?
I think it may be that a lot of online/electronic versions use the King James version since NIV is protected under copyright. So when people get verses, it ends up being a non-NIV version.
Forgive my hasty reply - gotta go!
I just wanted to share an excellent web based electronic Bible resource. It has about a dozen good English versions, foreign translations, is searchable, and is FREE! You can even cut and paste. The Copyright info is on the sight…
I hope this is a blessing in your search for answers.[/quote]
The best free resource out there that I know of is esword.
I think it is better than most pay programs. It also has access to great books such as all of josephus works.
Awesome tool
[quote]campdirector wrote:
Why would a God who is perfect create man just so man should spend all of his time showering God with praise? Why does he need us to worship him? And if he loves us so much like the Bible tells us, why would he condemn us to enternal suffering in hell if we don’t do everything according to his will? Why would he do that?!?[/quote]
Ok, I’m going to make a feeble attempt at this. God created us for a relationship. Much like a marriage relationship. (Bride of Christ, etc.) So as part of that we tell God how cool he is and ask for guidance and help (worship) and also on the flip side of that, God likes to tell us how cool we are and He likes to help us. Why does God want a realationship? I don’t know. But the “worship of a soveriegn God” is not supposed to be one sided.
And it’s important to realize that God does NOT damn anyone to eternal suffering. He never did. But entering His kingdom does have certain requirements. It’s His house, He makes the rules. The rule is that we can’t have sin “on” us and enter His kingdom. In Old Testament times, there were lots of different ways to cleanse yourself of sin. God tells us that the wages of sin is death. In other words, if you sin, it kills you. He doesn’t kill you, but it’s something you bring on yourself. At first there was no death. Adam and Eve were going to live forever. But by sinning they brought death and destruction on themselves and the world. (Think of sin bringing death like snorting cocaine. You do this enough, sooner or later it’s going to kill you. Bad example, but simple.) But I digress. In the old days they would sacrifice a bull. The bull’s death and blood would take the place of their sin. But the bull wasn’t perfect, so they had to do it more than once in their lifetime. Along comes Christ. He was perfect. He did die for every human. His blood was shed to take the place for all of our sins. He did this, and the action is historical fact. This was God’s gift to us. BUT, what good is a gift if we don’t accept it? If I give you $100, it does you no good until you take/accept it. So it’s our choice. Every single person has access to God and his kingdom in this life and beyond, but we have to actually reach out and take the gift he’s offered us. So to answer your question, God doesn’t condemn anyone to eternal suffering. But some people may condemn themselves because they didn’t take the gift that was offered.
[quote]My biggest problem is that you can only enter Heaven if you believe that Christ was killed for your sins. What about those who have died without knowing Christ? Children are born into cultures that have different beliefs and their parents do not teach them the ways of Christ. They never know they have to accept Christ. I have a hard time believing they are sent to hell for this.
I can’t believe that an all-loving God would do this.
[/quote]
As far as answering this, I don’t know. And I’ve never heard an answer. But basically what we rest on is knowing that God is a loving God and He provides a way. When Christ was crucified, the Bible says He went down to Hell and took the keys of death and Hell from Satan. Some people hypothesize that Jesus may have addressed this issue at this time.
But the REAL ISSUE is you. And me. And every individual that does know and is offered the gift. What are you doing with the gift? I could offer everyone in the entire world $100 each. Does the fact that some dude in Siberia doesn’t know I’ve made the offer stop you from taking the $100 from me and buying some cool Biotest Supplements? No.
Wow, this was super long. Sorry. But maybe it’ll give you something to think about.
[quote]campdirector wrote:
I for one never assumed that we deserve God’s forgivness. I just can’t understand why God would create us knowing full well that the vast majority of every human who ever existed would suffer eternal torment hell. That does not sound very loving to me. It sounds mean. I am not saying I do not believe in God. I think I do but I have too many questions. So many things about it just do not make sense. No one can ever answer me as to why. And why not just forgive us if he loves us. Why send Jesus to suffer so horribly.
CD[/quote]
I understand your questions, but look at it this way, when I had my children I knew that they’ll make mistakes, disobey and rebel, I know they’re not going to be perfect, but why should that stop me from having them and pursue a relationship with them, I know as a parent i’m going to have to do a lot of forgiving but I won’t focus on their sins or faults but on raising them to be good human beings. God gave up one Son and gained millions, God gave up part of Himself in order to redeem us.
There are many things my 6 & 2 year old don’t understand but they need to trust me that I’m looking for what’s in their best interest, like all parents say, “when they grow up they’ll understand”, as we mature in our walk with God we’ll understand some things more, we may not have all the answers but that’s not really a bad thing.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
CaptainLogic wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
To JP Bear and the rest of you participating in this excellent thread, I apologize and will make no further comments in that vein.
Such is the power of Lorisco, he can piss people off so much that he’ll ruin threads as a side effect of ruining other threads.
I apologize to all the Christians who feel their thread is being desecrated.
I had stayed out of this thread for respect for those that wanted to talk about their religion.
Of course, Lorisco did a magnificient troll job on the atheists thread which caused the uproar here.
And Zeb, there’s nothing wrong with trying to help others out. But there is a fine line between “helping” and “forcing”. Namely going onto an atheists thread and reciting the scripture. If anyone turns to Christ because of Lorisco, god fucking help them[/quote]
Hmm. I think this is the second time in a week I’ve agreed with you, Irish. I’m getting worried…
[quote]campdirector wrote:
I for one never assumed that we deserve God’s forgivness. I just can’t understand why God would create us knowing full well that the vast majority of every human who ever existed would suffer eternal torment hell. That does not sound very loving to me. It sounds mean. I am not saying I do not believe in God. I think I do but I have too many questions. So many things about it just do not make sense. No one can ever answer me as to why. And why not just forgive us if he loves us. Why send Jesus to suffer so horribly.
CD[/quote]
The book of Romans answers all your questions in great detail. If you really want to know, prayerfully read the book of Romans. I would suggest reading it in a New King James or NIV translation since the old English of the King James version can be hard to understand.
I am a Christian. I am in no way ashamed of it. I don’t care who knows, or what anyone thinks about it. If an atheist or anyone else wants to insult me, call me stupid, or claim that I am living in a fairy tale world that is fine with me.
I live my life (imperfect as it might be) to the best of my ability. I try to treat everyone with respect. I make every attempt to live my life in such a way that someone will think, hey Christopher is a Christian without thinking all of the things I read others post about Christians. At times I must admit that I am offended or insulted by the harsh words spoken about my faith, but I try to be thick skinned and move on with my life. I wish people (and by people I mean everyone not just one group of people) would not be so harsh and mean spirited. But there will be those types of people regardless of religious or any other kind of views. Oh well, I will just try my best to treat people with respect. After all, I can’t control other people’s actions, but I can (although it is hard at times) control mine.
Let’s try not to “group” people. Some people on this thread have made some general statements about atheists and other groups of people. I know several agnostics and atheist. They are very friendly and respectful to me and my beliefs, and I truly believe that is because I am friendly to them and respectful of what they choose to believe. I am not saying I am ok with what they believe, think they are right, and wouldn’t love for them to convert to what I believe to be the truth. However, I am not going to try to force anything on them. They know exactly where I stand and are perfectly capable of questioning me about anything. Then I feel free to talk with them about my beliefs since they have expressed an interest in discussing it. Some Christians may not agree with this or say that I should be bolder and witness to them. What would that accomplish other than them thinking I was just trying to make them convert to my way of thinking? It would only serve to push them away. Then I end up with someone who doesn’t want to be around me and I lose the opportunity I use to have of living my “witness” in front of them.
On the flip side, it would also be nice if the atheists and others would not make general statements and lump all Christians together. That is equally unfair. I know plenty of people who claim to be Christian and have ready about people throughout history that claim to be Christian, and yet they have acted in such vile and hateful ways that they did/do not represent Christ. Must we then immediately say they represent all Christians? That just doesn’t seem fair to me. Sure there are Christians who certainly have good intentions, but often offend and insult out of nothing more than ignorance. They are not bad people, just misguided people. And there are those who are so misguided that they truly feel they are doing what is right. And then there are those I mentioned first who are hateful and purposefully mean malcontent. The latter group of people must have some other agenda and they are using “Christianity” to cover it up. None of these examples, even though the people have different levels of intentions, represent how I want to be viewed. Just because someone does something in the name of Christ (or anyone other deity or religion), does that mean they are automatically the whole representation of that movement? If what they are doing is not a true representation of Christ and does not exhibit love and kindness, then, in my opinion, they are not truly living (at least at the time the offense is done) after the teachings of Christ, thus they should not be a representation of all Christians.
I feel it would be hypocritical for me to make a statement such as "all those on the atheist thread are stupid, ignorant, and weak minded (which is what I read is believed about me as a Christian), just to turn around and flame the atheists for being arrogant and hateful when the statement I made was also arrogant and hateful. I am not going to throw around insult and purposely make an effort to hurt and offend people. I believe that accomplishes absolutely nothing. Well, and remember I am admitting to being FAR from perfect, unfortunately there are several people claiming to be Christians that are insulting the atheists. I don’t think they should be doing that, but as I have already mentioned, I have no control over their actions.
In a similar manner, I don’t feel it is fair for the atheists to make such statements about Christians only to claim intellectual superiority over Christians while accusing us of the same thing. It happens on both side, and in my opinion it is a sign of disrespect. I am not willing to participate in it, and I would hope that the atheists that visit this thread in the future will elect not to participate either. If someone claiming to be a Christian comes to your thread and starts hurling insults or is not willing to engage in a civil debate, ignore them. Likewise, if an atheist comes to this thread and does the same thing, ignore them. I really feel it is quite that simple. If the people who are respectful of others regardless of their religious belief would just continue to be respectful and ignore the people being hateful, then I think a lot more peaceful and meaningful discussions would take place.
OK. That was a lot and after reading over it a few times I don’t expect anyone will even read it. Nothing was meant as a flame. I was just expressing my views on both sides.
Christopher
No christian has been willing to properly answer my question so I figured I would try here.
Dinosaurs. How can their existence be explained without contradicting your belief system? It has been proven and established as a basic fact that dinosaurs lived and died millions of years before men existed. This is strange because the bible only mentions creating men. There was no break period of millions of years. It just doesn’t make sense to me. So someone please help me out and explain this to me. I’m not trying to stir anything here, I just really want to know the christian position on this particular subject.
PS. The book of job does not describe dinosaurs. And if you think that then you need to read it over a use an unbiased frame of mind before you make assumptions.
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
ZEB wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
To JP Bear and the rest of you participating in this excellent thread, I apologize and will make no further comments in that vein.
I think I know where you are coming from. If someone wants to be a Christian you don’t have any problem with that.
But if someone actually wants to live their faith and try to help others who are going down the wrong road, according to that faith, then you don’t like that much.
So quiet Christians are good-Outspoken ones are bad.
Got it.
It’s a shame Jesus Christ was so outspoken or you might be a believer.
No, you don’t get it at all. I don’t mind people expressly wearing their religion on their sleeve and displaying it and trying to expose people and get them to adopt what they think is right. But there is a way of doing that still demonstrates respect for other people and their beliefs, religious and otherwise, even though one thinks their own are correct. And Lorisco does not do that. Others here and elsewhere do.[/quote]
And that is your opinion. You are judging lorisco.
That sort of sounds a bit like what you don’t appreciate others doing. Maybe you better join prof x over there on the hypocrit forum.
And you did say you were not coming back to this thread but here you are…