LiquidMercury, thanks for the information.
Do elite rowers do any upper body work for the sport specific training?
How do they go about mixing the lifting w/ rowing as well. 3xBW DL and 2.5BW squat is no joke, and it seems to be at odds with what I have heard about maybe distance/volume training interfering with recovery.
[quote]gregron wrote:
Ok well I’d like to start out with thinking we misunderstood each other. I don’t think we disagree on much but just got off on the wrong foot.
I see what you mean with a volume of 100K+ a week. I’m gonna go out on a limb here and think that most of the people posting in here are doing a single 500 at the end of a workout… maybe a little more so do you think with that low of a volume its a bad idea to max out the resistance?
Im not a “rower” or a rowing coach or anything but I can sympathize with the bad form thing. I’m sure my form is far from perfect but I can even tell when people are doing it horribly and its annoying to me (especially if there isn’t a free machine for me to use at the time)
Ok so thats about all… so summarize: If you only for a 500m 4-5 times a week after lifting is possible back problems really an issue?
.greg.[/quote]
To be honest, depending on how bad ones technique is, and how your workout before the 500 is programmed I can see it giving you back problems still. Just like crossfit sometimes has days where you do 50 singles of deadlifts with 405 lbs after you do 300 kip ups? that type of programming is just bogus. I wouldn’t suggest doing 500’s with the damper up at a 10 on heavy deadlift or squat days or anything just absolutely blasting your posterior chain. That can most definitely lead to herniated discs (I’ve seen this happen twice at my gym) and various strains in your back extensors.
[quote]LHKeen wrote:
As a lifter, with probably bad technique, I also appreciate your input on this LiquidMercury.
A few years ago my best 500m time, with a 10 damper, was 1:23.
Now, at a bwt of 138kg, I have been playing with 2km and did a best of 7:13.5 on Monday. Again with the damper on 10.
I keep the damper high to build lower back strength endurance, because I compete in strongman.
The conditioning is also overall good, but it is very easy to underestimate the effects of this sort of workout.
That 2km was all I did! And I was stuffed for some time - I am only at the start of a serious conditioning improvement phase!
I will definitely keep an eye out here for others who appreciate the Concept2.[/quote]
138 kilo, whew you’re a biggun. Sadly I have to keep my weight artificially (somewhat) low due to the fact that I race lightweight since I’m only a whopping 5’9" and have to have a race weight of 165 lbs (weigh ins are 2 hours before race so there is some leniency as far as manipulating water and glycogen stores). That being said I can see the merits of lower back training for possible strongman contenders though I would as always strongly urge everyone to limit the volume with the fan setting that high because it honestly can just do weird things to your back.
For all those that think the 500 is a true test of power endurance, try a full 2k. This is the olympic distance, and rowers generally train for. It’s the olympic sport with the most continuous and highest watt output as well as highest caloric demand per minute. Hell, people even die from it (I can cite quite a few instances where rowers have died at the end of a race due to heart failure). It’s pushing yourself through your own personal hell and coming to the wall at 1500 meters with tunnel vision on the verge of blacking out from oxygen deprivation and then pushing through that wall knowing that 7 other people in the boat are going through that same pain and agony and that you cannot fail them.
For a great inspirational video check:
That’d be the Canadian National team and Al Pacino.
[quote]theuofh wrote:
LiquidMercury, thanks for the information.
Do elite rowers do any upper body work for the sport specific training?
How do they go about mixing the lifting w/ rowing as well. 3xBW DL and 2.5BW squat is no joke, and it seems to be at odds with what I have heard about maybe distance/volume training interfering with recovery. [/quote]
Distance and volume training does have a detriment to strength training. I won’t dispute that. Kind of makes you wonder how strong elite rowers would be if they weren’t putting in 150-200k a week huh?
Most elite rowers and programs do indeed incorporate a good amount of lifting, not to the extent of say football, but a lot of olympic lifting, cleans, deadlifts and squats are used. Sadly the upper body is left somewhat alone since in rowing 80% of the power comes from your legs, about 20% from your back, and 10% from your arms (when you’re actually doing it right). That’s why if you ever see elite rowers, and rowers in general, they usually are flat as a board in their chest, very low bodyfat, ridiculously large legs, a pretty big back, and skinny arms. Similar to a cyclists build. Add this to the fact that the heavyweight guys are usually 6’4"-6’9" and you can see for some very lanky and oddly proportioned guys.
For the lightweights it’s worse since we have to keep our weight at 165 lbs (open level) this leaves us with trying to pack as much muscle as we can in our legs, and reducing any muscle we don’t need (very much like a cyclist).
Did it again tonight and got it in 1:31.9 on 10.
My gym’s C2 rower must be pretty old because it doesn’t have an electronic control for the damper/fan setting. I found it afterwards, it was on the side of the fan and was a manual lever.
After this I sat there for about 5 minutes trying to catch my breath so I could give it another go. My upperback, quads & hamstrings were all on fire
[quote]LiquidMercury wrote:
[quote]theuofh wrote:
LiquidMercury, thanks for the information.
Do elite rowers do any upper body work for the sport specific training?
How do they go about mixing the lifting w/ rowing as well. 3xBW DL and 2.5BW squat is no joke, and it seems to be at odds with what I have heard about maybe distance/volume training interfering with recovery. [/quote]
Distance and volume training does have a detriment to strength training. I won’t dispute that. Kind of makes you wonder how strong elite rowers would be if they weren’t putting in 150-200k a week huh?
Most elite rowers and programs do indeed incorporate a good amount of lifting, not to the extent of say football, but a lot of olympic lifting, cleans, deadlifts and squats are used. Sadly the upper body is left somewhat alone since in rowing 80% of the power comes from your legs, about 20% from your back, and 10% from your arms (when you’re actually doing it right). That’s why if you ever see elite rowers, and rowers in general, they usually are flat as a board in their chest, very low bodyfat, ridiculously large legs, a pretty big back, and skinny arms. Similar to a cyclists build. Add this to the fact that the heavyweight guys are usually 6’4"-6’9" and you can see for some very lanky and oddly proportioned guys.
For the lightweights it’s worse since we have to keep our weight at 165 lbs (open level) this leaves us with trying to pack as much muscle as we can in our legs, and reducing any muscle we don’t need (very much like a cyclist).[/quote]
Thats so true about the “rower body type.” A friend of mine was training for the US olympic team (was eventually chosen as an alternate) but at his wedding all his grooms men were from the US team and they were all 6’4"+ and were skinny lookin dudes. Definitely low bodyfat.
.greg.
[quote]frankjl wrote:
Did it again tonight and got it in 1:31.9 on 10.
My gym’s C2 rower must be pretty old because it doesn’t have an electronic control for the damper/fan setting. I found it afterwards, it was on the side of the fan and was a manual lever.
After this I sat there for about 5 minutes trying to catch my breath so I could give it another go. My upperback, quads & hamstrings were all on fire[/quote]
The lever is the damper/fan setting on all models. When I say check the digital setting it means check the digital rating of the damper setting (directions outlined above). This is because a “10” on some machines isn’t a “10” on other machines etc. etc. A digital rating of 145 is a 145 on any machine (the lever just may be in different places because of the age of the machine).
[quote]gregron wrote:
Thats so true about the “rower body type.” A friend of mine was training for the US olympic team (was eventually chosen as an alternate) but at his wedding all his grooms men were from the US team and they were all 6’4"+ and were skinny lookin dudes. Definitely low bodyfat.
.greg.[/quote]
Shopping for jeans for rowers is just as hard as it is for power lifters if not harder since they’ve usually got very small waists with these huge legs. I know at my peak training I was sporting 28 inch legs and a 29 inch waist with a “ghetto booty” Needless to say I eventually just had to have jeans tailored.
[quote]LiquidMercury wrote:
[quote]gregron wrote:
Thats so true about the “rower body type.” A friend of mine was training for the US olympic team (was eventually chosen as an alternate) but at his wedding all his grooms men were from the US team and they were all 6’4"+ and were skinny lookin dudes. Definitely low bodyfat.
.greg.[/quote]
Shopping for jeans for rowers is just as hard as it is for power lifters if not harder since they’ve usually got very small waists with these huge legs. I know at my peak training I was sporting 28 inch legs and a 29 inch waist with a “ghetto booty” Needless to say I eventually just had to have jeans tailored.[/quote]
that really sucks lol. I’ve got 27-28 inch legs and I have trouble finding nice pants with a 32 inch waist. I usually have to get them a 34 if I’m lucky and just wear a belt all the time (which i hate doing).
.greg.
Best 500 1:28, training is interval sprints 1:45 x 10.
2000 Meter 10 damper setting 8:48 That was very tiring to say the least but it was also at the start of my workout as a warm-up.
Anybody got any good ideas on how to stop the foot straps from coming loose whilst rowing? I’m not sure if it’s something I’m doing wrong, but every time I start to row moderately hard I find the straps starting to creep their way loose… Anybody got a simple solution?
[quote]PJ84 wrote:
Anybody got any good ideas on how to stop the foot straps from coming loose whilst rowing? I’m not sure if it’s something I’m doing wrong, but every time I start to row moderately hard I find the straps starting to creep their way loose… Anybody got a simple solution?[/quote]
Learn to row properly. You’re pulling yourself up through your feet instead of your hamstrings. Make sure you get your body over and set with your hands extended past your knees (before your knees ever come up). If you get proper body positioning, you can pull yourself up through your hamstrings/glutes and not through your straps.
[quote]LiquidMercury wrote:
[quote]PJ84 wrote:
Anybody got any good ideas on how to stop the foot straps from coming loose whilst rowing? I’m not sure if it’s something I’m doing wrong, but every time I start to row moderately hard I find the straps starting to creep their way loose… Anybody got a simple solution?[/quote]
Learn to row properly. You’re pulling yourself up through your feet instead of your hamstrings. Make sure you get your body over and set with your hands extended past your knees (before your knees ever come up). If you get proper body positioning, you can pull yourself up through your hamstrings/glutes and not through your straps. [/quote]
That makes perfect sense. Thanks very much for your help.
did a 500m after my workout yesterday… 1:36.1 and it was terrible lol. I’d never done a 500m sprint before and it was rough. I’d like to try to get it down under 1:30 soon.
.greg.
Doing 500m sprints at the end of a workout are brutal. If you want to get your best time, you are better doing it immediately after a good warm up than after an intense session. When I did them after a weight session I just had no leg drive at all and I laboured slower than 1:40.
I can’t begin to explain to you all how much proper technique comes into play. This is why people like me who may not be stronger then you all and may not even be more cardiovascularly in shape (busy coaching and not getting to row as much as I’d like) have faster times. Some of you have been posting 2k times and while you may crank out one of the 500’s in a 2k reasonably well, your technique is limiting you and this is why your times are slower then high school female’s times. Learn to row properly (most trainers at the gym don’t know shit what they’re doing on an erg) and you’ll see the times fly down.
[quote]LiquidMercury wrote:
I can’t begin to explain to you all how much proper technique comes into play. This is why people like me who may not be stronger then you all and may not even be more cardiovascularly in shape (busy coaching and not getting to row as much as I’d like) have faster times. Some of you have been posting 2k times and while you may crank out one of the 500’s in a 2k reasonably well, your technique is limiting you and this is why your times are slower then high school female’s times. Learn to row properly (most trainers at the gym don’t know shit what they’re doing on an erg) and you’ll see the times fly down.[/quote]
Totally agree. I have only just recently started rowing. I found the common mistakes I made at the beginning were opening my back up to early and also not getting full length on my stroke.
If you can’t keep a 2 minute split or lower with the fan setting at a 3 or 4, you don’t have proper technique (males), if you can’t hold a 2:15 split or lower at that setting for a female you don’t have proper technique.
The catch (full compression) should be with a 30 degree angle or so at the hips, slight arch in the back, arms fully extended.
Press with your legs, staying tucked with your body over and arms extended until your knees are down.
The moment your knees are down (or 95% down really) start to swing open with your back (15 degree layback should be the finish).
Once you have reached the point where you are sitting upright (hip/leg angle is 90 degrees) start to pull in with your arms.
Continue opening with your back and pulling in with your arms to the finish. You’re back/hip angle should be at 15-20 degrees.
Reverse it to come up to the catch.
Make sure your arms and body are over before your knees ever break. Once you’re past quarter slide all you should have to do is compress your legs.
[quote]LiquidMercury wrote:
If you can’t keep a 2 minute split or lower with the fan setting at a 3 or 4, you don’t have proper technique (males), if you can’t hold a 2:15 split or lower at that setting for a female you don’t have proper technique.
The catch (full compression) should be with a 30 degree angle or so at the hips, slight arch in the back, arms fully extended.
Press with your legs, staying tucked with your body over and arms extended until your knees are down.
The moment your knees are down (or 95% down really) start to swing open with your back (15 degree layback should be the finish).
Once you have reached the point where you are sitting upright (hip/leg angle is 90 degrees) start to pull in with your arms.
Continue opening with your back and pulling in with your arms to the finish. You’re back/hip angle should be at 15-20 degrees.
Reverse it to come up to the catch.
Make sure your arms and body are over before your knees ever break. Once you’re past quarter slide all you should have to do is compress your legs.
[/quote]
Hey I just read through your blog, some interesting stuff there. I was just wondering what kind of training volume you would recommend in order to improve 2k time on the erg (I want to beat 6.30, but not sure how long that will take), endurance on the water, whilst maintaining strength. I have been lifting weights for awhile, but only recently started rowing. Any advice is appreciated.