Synovex and Estrogen

Pharma
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[quote]Dynamo Hum wrote:
It is always difficult the first times until you get it down pat. Then it becomes second nature. The effort is worth the trouble once it the bugs are ironed out…[/quote]

Oh, I’ve done it enough times that I’m comfortable with the process, but the deeper I dig into it the more I doubt the theoretical underpinnings - I mean we can’t even seem to get an accurate solubility number for TP into methanol and I haven’t nearly enough chemistry background to know whether or not the rest of the conventionally accepted wisdom is correct.

I will say that I think BR is onto something, in that the best (apparently estradiol free) batches I’ve ever made came from finishing by dissolving in oil only - I wonder now if everything I did prior to that part of the process was just a waste of test. Of course, without a sophisticated chemical assay, even this is conjecture

122

So, we would just add about 9.5 ml oil per gram of crushed synovex, let it dissolve and filter?

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No.

Without benzyl alcohol – which I expect has much more proportional tendency to dissolve estradiol benzoate than oil does – the solubility of TP in oil is only 50 mg per mL.

So for a nominal 1 gram of TP in the crushed synovex, 20 mL of oil is needed.

If one doesn’t find it too much both, it could well be worth dissolving in minimal methanol, then adding water and precipitating out with adding water – omitting the NaOH step – just for the sake of avoiding the binders and reducing the amount of EB so that filtering will be easier.

I found the filtering to be a true pain in the ass when dissolving crushed pellets straight into the vegetable oil.

An alternate solution could well be to plan well enough ahead as to allow for example at least a couple of weeks and more preferably a month for the mixture to settle. If doing that, I wouldn’t be surprised if dissolving straight into the oil would be easy enough to filter, if filtering what was poured off of the by-then-hard-packed precipitate.

Incidentally, dissolving straight into oil is not so easy. A sonicator would help, or a magnetic stirrer. However if not in a rush, shaking a few times day and continuing for as many days until seeing the pellets totally broken down would likely do it. Heating the oil to a reasonable temperature – up to say 70 C – would help considerably also. I would not do that continuously for days, but a few times for a few shakings would be fine.

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(post hasn’t appeared yet)

Correction, as per your post, for 50 mg/mL the amount of oil needed for 1 gram of TP is about 19.5 mL not 20.

And note, I don’t have information that the EB concentration is necessarily as low as with the methanol/NaOH/water method done optimally. I really mentioned it only as an illustration that satisfactory results, for a given individual, from that method don’t necessarily prove that it yields any less EB than just dissolving in oil.

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[quote]ins8ibl wrote:

So, we would just add about 9.5 ml oil per gram of crushed synovex, let it dissolve and filter?[/quote]

doesn’t seem to hold for me at much above 80mg/ml, and I prefer 100mg/ml, so I add 18% BA and 2% BB AFTER filtration to keep it from crashing.

I must add that I have not done this with straight pellets - I used powder precipitated through selective recrystallization (without using NaOH). I also warm the oil to around 140F to help dissolve (which explains why it crashes when it gets back down to room temperature)

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I’ve been trying to research this topic for months and this thread has proved INVALUABLE to my research. This is my first post on T-Nation so hello bro’s.

I would like to respond to the discussion between TESTOLIUS and BR.

BR WROTE:::
If you have a saturated solution of both testosterone propionate and estradiol benzoate in methanol – each being saturated if that be the case – and you add water, why would you say only testosterone propionate will crystallize out?

That would be reasonable if estradiol benzoate were more hydrophilic but I don’t think that’s the case, or not much so anyway if at all.

Where the process can work is if, though EB and TP may have been saturated in the first place, the EB is converted to a more soluble substance which is not saturated and can thus tolerate some water being added. This would be particularly true if being converted to much more hydrophilic form than testosterone propionate, such as sodium estradiol.

I was under the assumption that the process works as follows:

  1. EB and TP are removed from binders and glue by use of methanol

  2. Binders and glue are filtered off, this will yield a solution which contains both TP and EB…at a 10:1 ratio accordingly.

  3. Said solution is combined with NAOH (sodium hydroxide) The sodium hydroxide is allowed to react with the original solution of methanol combined with TP/EB, for one hour. This process serves the purpose of causing the EB to be made H20 Sol.

  4. Now very cold water is dripped into current solution. As this happens the Methanol as well as the EB will combine with the H2O, however the TP is foced out of solution and into crystalline form.

Now, maybe I’m reading something wrong, but it seems to me that BR is disputing the fact that only TP will be forced out of solution.

He seems to believe that, despite being mixed at a 10:1 ratio, AND, despite the increased water solubility of the EB (due to addition of NAOH) that both the TP and EB will precipitate out of solution.

I have no doubt that the EB will precipitate to a certain extent. However, wouldn’t it precipitate at very negligible levels???

Those who have informed ideas based on experience please help me out.

I would seem to disagree with Bill Roberts.

So in other words, I’m wrong, but can’t figure out what I’m missing. lol

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What I was writing meant exactly what it said.

It refers to the situation of having a solution of testosterone propionate and estradiol benzoate in methanol and thinking that addition of water will result in selectively crystallizing out the TP with little to no EB.

That would I think be a highly unrealistic expectation.

I don’t recall at this point what previous posts I was referring to and if it’s okay would rather not go back through it now as that is not so important by now.

The above-described situation is not what better efforts at this sort of thing are aiming for.

Instead, ideally they aim or should aim for first having a nearly saturated solution of both TP and EB – not because we want so much EB, but because if you have the former occurring it’s impossible to avoid the latter.

Most efforts probably fail in this as they use more methanol than required, thus resulting in more EB being dissolved than necessary but no more TP. And thus a worse ratio. But this is a relatively fine point that I mention just to be complete.

Then after this, the ideal but impossible situation would be to cleave all or nearly all the EB to estradiol and leave all the TP intact.

In practice the cleavage is only fairly selective and so some TP will be cleaved as well. Just to be clear.

Now at this point, neither estradiol or nor EB (as there is rather little of it) is at saturation or even very near it, and therefore addition of water can crystallize out TP without necessarily much EB or E2 coming out of solution.

That is a quite different situation than what I was referring to above.

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I haven’t read all these posts just the first couple and the last couple, but I successfully convert prop from syno at least once a year for my cycle. The “estrogen solubizer” is nothing more then NaoH or just plain old soap lye, same stuff Brad Pitt poured on the other guys hand in Fight Club. The secret to this is that you only leave the lye in your mix for exactly one hour, or you will change your test prop into ace or base, which are much shorter acting. I will post up the steps and measurements needed to convert five carts, which would ideally yield 10 grams, but it is almost impossible to get a 100% conversion. If you have some estro left in your prop, which is likely to happen, it would be wise to run nolva throughout your cycle to keep it from binding to your chest.

Five carts of synovex h pellets
one yellow and blue bottle of heet
one gallon distilled water
coffee filters
lye

  1. Break down pellets with heet (250 ml of heet for five carts)
  2. Coffee filter your solution, throw away the filter with white chalky stuff in it(methyl cellulose)
  3. Let slushly like distilled water drip into your now clear solution left after your step above, crystals will form, colder water equals greater yield(500 ml of water)
  4. Dissolve .25 grams of lye in 10ml of distilled water then pour into your crystal solution and let sit for exactly one hour…this step allows estro to be water soluble thus allowing you to wash it away in the steps below
  5. Coffee filter again but this time keep what is left in the filter, it is your prop crystals
  6. Wash with at least 1/2 gallon of distilled water to wash away heet and estro from your prop crystals
  7. Dry crystals and weigh how much you have…and that is all folks…I am sure you can figure it out from here
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Thanks for the clarification BR…

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With the amount of know how I have seen here. I would like to ask an off topic question (I posted the topic as well). I just received some winny 50mg gear in pill form. But, due to the half-life and liver stress of oral meds I wanted to convert it. I have made tren and TP before. Can the tren or to TP convertion tech be used to make winny inject from the pill?

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It would be possible using different methods to make a Winstrol injectable from the oral, but it wouldn’t be worth the trouble.

The liver stress doesn’t result from the oral intake, but from the 17-methyl group. In other words, the injectable is just as liver toxic per mg that is absorbed.

The injectable has a small efficiency advantage – maybe one has to take 50% more orally to get the same effect as a given amount of injectable, as a rough figure – but personally I wouldn’t think that worth the trouble of conversion.

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Hey guys,
sorry to beat a dead horse with this topic once again…but I’m still curious about the NaOH reaction. Now it’s been many years since my chemistry days, but this idea of using X amount of NaOH and the timing the reaction doesn’t make sense to me.

Granted, I should sit down and write out the reactions on paper and look at what’s going on before posting but what the hell discussion is more fun anyway.

1: Now am I mistaken in assuming that the reaction taking place is simply between the NaOH and the estradiol benzoate thus forming the estradiol salt and what benzoic acid?

2: Supposedly that reaction is favorable to the same reaction with TP?

3: If these two assumptions hold then why are we using a much larger than necessary amount of NaOH needed for the reaction and then having to time it before it strips the TP as well?

Wouldn’t it be better/easier to just use a molar equivalent of NaOH to EB, plus a little extra to ensure the estrogen is salted? Maybe 2:1 or so. I saw reference to this idea by someone named Klaus using a 4 molar equivalant of NaOH to EB. Seems to me if you didn’t go overkill on the NaOH you could leave it sit for a day or two and, once all the NaOH reacted, there would be no danger of destroying your TP.

Did a quick search and came up with a 4 molar equivalent of NaOH to 1g EB (5 carts?) as being ~0.106g NaOH. If we went 0.212g (lower than any number I’ve seen mentioned) we could salt all of the estrogen and lose an additional 1g of test for a yield of ~9g test before filtering. Maybe 8g after filtration. That’s an 80% yield which ensured no estrogen…pretty good tradeoff. If you recrystallized and then filtered with oil, as previously mentioned, you’d lose a bit more but be more confident of being almost completely estrogen free.

Where have I gone wrong in my thinking?

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It seems to me that a large focus of this thread is about getting rid of estradiol benzoate.

Couldn’t one merely use an AL or SERM? ya know, block the effects within the body as opposed to separating and filtering it out?

My knowledge base on this subject is quite limited so if im completely missing a major point here i wont be surprized in the least bit.

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al’s and serms wont work in the case of synovex because its “exogenous”? please clarify ASAP!!! sorry if my knowledge base is short but one must start somewhere right…

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[quote]TheStickyNinja wrote:
al’s and serms wont work in the case of synovex because its “exogenous”? please clarify ASAP!!! sorry if my knowledge base is short but one must start somewhere right…
[/quote]

Serms would help, AI’s would not.

Serms compete with estrogen at the estrogen receptor, so you could have exogenous and/or endogenous estrogen in your system but some or most of it could not exert it’s effects because the SERM has attached itself to the receptor.

AI’s block the synthesis of estrogen, so you won’t have much endogenous estrogen, but exogenous estrogen can still exert it’s effects.

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[quote]beerbarbq wrote:

[quote]TheStickyNinja wrote:
al’s and serms wont work in the case of synovex because its “exogenous”? please clarify ASAP!!! sorry if my knowledge base is short but one must start somewhere right…
[/quote]

Serms would help, AI’s would not.

Serms compete with estrogen at the estrogen receptor, so you could have exogenous and/or endogenous estrogen in your system but some or most of it could not exert it’s effects because the SERM has attached itself to the receptor.

AI’s block the synthesis of estrogen, so you won’t have much endogenous estrogen, but exogenous estrogen can still exert it’s effects. [/quote]

however if you take your estrogen levels too low using an Ai wouldnt the exogenous estrogen have little effect

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[quote]MaddyD wrote:

however if you take your estrogen levels too low using an Ai wouldnt the exogenous estrogen have little effect [/quote]

That depends on the amount of estrogen you are injecting. Just because your natural estrogen level may be low because of an AI does not mean you can inject estrogen and not have consequences.

If you inject an amount of estrogen that is above your bodys normal range you may suffer negative side effects, if it’s a low enough amount that just brings you back into normal range then you are probably fine.

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A SERM is no good for the synovex estrogen issue. It may prevent gyno but you’ll still have high levels of circulating estrogen which will still have negative effects. Not to mention SERMs come with their own side effects which can be worse than the steroids themselves.

FYI, the NaOH definitely works. While not confirmed thru chromatography etc the DRASTIC change in MP measured after conversion confirmed it enough for me to be satisfied.

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I have been researching everything i can find on converting for test prop.

I have seen it mentioned the majority of the time that a na0h step is needed but others mention a way to recrystallize and not use the na0h step. i like the recrystallization method better (no chance of getting side tracked/distracted and end up with just tne).

So if i have this correct and ill keep this as a very basic outline. all one needs to do is these steps right?

  1. crush and dissolve pellets in methanol
  2. filter out the fillers and binders.
  3. slowly add cold distilled water to form crystals.
  4. filter out the crystals and allow them to dry completely.
  5. re-saturate the crystals with just enough methanol to dissolve them all.
  6. slowly add cold distilled water to form crystals again.
  7. filter and allow crystals to dry completely.
    repeat steps 5,6, and 7 three more times.

Is this correct for converting prop without the use of na0h?

Sorry about the bump of an older post.

Thanks to all that answers.
B

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Never mind, i got it. ( had a blonde moment no offense to anyone intended)

Good thread everyone!