Has anyone ever had their solution turn yellowish after the first filter and addition of NAOH? Is this normal?
Wow, someone who actually makes sense to me, you know i read alot about this conversion and the orginal recrystalization method mentions the melting point test. People say if it melts below the 118 that there is estrogen in it. That chemically, makes no sense at all, being estro or even estrobenz has a much higher melting point somewhere around 140ās if i recall. What do you think?
Well if it makes anyone feel any better, out of 20g i only ended up with 7ā¦lol My melting point was great, batches between 118-125C at melt down. So i put the powder in a BA solution inside a glass and placed in boiling water to heat up while swirling then i added 50ml of oil and continued. But MAN!! when i went to filter i feel like i lost 1/2 my product. Went through at least 4 filters and when i drew back i could see the hormone clumped up in oil. ??? any suggestions?
Oh, and another thing estro and estrobenz actually have a higher melting point then test prop, so why do people say if it melts below 118 it has estro in it??? Makes no sense chemically?
melting point of test prop is 118c
estradiol benzoate melting point is 191-198 c
so the point is to recrystalise untill you get to the 118c
and estradiol is only slightly soluable in plain oil so mix it with oil first and filter and you should filter out the remaining EB
[quote]myostatinblocker wrote:
Oh, and another thing estro and estrobenz actually have a higher melting point then test prop, so why do people say if it melts below 118 it has estro in it??? Makes no sense chemically?[/quote]
Miscible impurities typically lower melting point. If some EB is present, and thus the TP is impure, then this lowers the melting.
This is so regardless of whether the impurity has a higher melting point or not.
The reason is that there is greater increase in entropy when the main product and an impurity melt and mix than when there is no mixing of any impurity. And increases in entropy are thermodynamically favorable.
Ah, i understand, impurity probably weakens the crystal lattice, weaker bonds, less energy is needed to breakā¦ Nice one, thanks B.R.
Actually you will see the effect from physically mixing pure crystals as well. It is a greater increase in disorder having separated (different crystals) but adjacent TP and EB melt and mix into each other than to have TP alone melt into pure TP.
newbie question hereā¦how does the time of drip wise addition of distilled water not add to the precise hour that the naoh/heet/syno solution must sit to keep testp?
For our purposes, I donāt think its necessary to worry about EXACTLY 1 hr. If I understand right, as time passes, the NaOH is turning the estro benzoate into a salt that will be washed away with the rinse waterā¦but it is also reacting with the prop ester and turning some of the test-p into test base, which will be virtually insoluble and thus be lost during filtration.
If you let it sit for 45 minutes for example, you will get a higher Test-P yield, but still have some residual estro. If you let it sit for a longer time, say 90 minutes, you will get more estro out, but will lower your test-P yield.
In any case, when you start to add cold water, you can actually add quite a bit fairly rapidly before you start to see the cloudiness appear that indicates its time to slow down and go dropwiseā¦maybe takes 10-15 minutes all told - I usually start at the 60 minute mark. I would imagine that the first big jolt of distilled water dilutes the conc. NaOH enough to really slow the reaction anyhow.
Anyway, as you can see, lot of smart guys here know more about the chemistry behind it, and maybe one of them can correct me if Iām wrong, but this is pretty much how it seems to work in actual practice from my experience. If in doubt, I tend to favor reduced test-P yield in favor of getting as much estro out as I can (and even then I still use the method suggested by BR of dissolving in oil only). Even so, my usual yields are up in the 15-16g/box range, which is some cheap fckn prop.
oh yeah - I donāt ever fuck with melting points anymore:
- Most kitchen chemists donāt have the means to get an accurate reading anyway.
- Experience has shown me that if I recrystallize 3X according to the directions, get a yield in the 15-16g range, then dissolve in oil only, it is going to be as clean as Iām going to get it.
This may be a bit off topic, but in my first conversion, I got around 7.5 grams of powder from 5 carts. Dried for 5 hours at 150F and chopped up fine. Seemed dry to me. When added to a kit of oil (assume BB & BA were present), it keeps coming out of solution and forming crystals in the oil after a couple of days at room temp. They go away with heat in a boil water pan. Did I leave some residual moisture in the powder? Is this what causes this?
If you used heat to dissolve into the oil in the first place, you presumably prepared it at a greater concentration than that oil/BA/BB solution can hold at room temperature.
I used the ~95cc of oil/dissolving solution in a FF kit. The kit was designed for 5 carts, and I thought my yield was definitely on the low side, so I assumed it should have no issues being less than 100mg/ml concentrationā¦am I understanding this correctly?
I donāt know the particular kit. So I donāt have no way if knowing if the concentration of BA/BB in the oil is sufficient to support the concentration of testosterone propionate you were trying to dissolve, which amount you do not specifically know.
Another possibility is that you have some testosterone itself in the mixture, more of which would dissolve into the solution when heating than can remain in solution at room temperature.
Good point.
Would it seem reasonable that using the saturated NAOH for 1 hour )along with 30minutes of drip wise water addition) could have made enough test base to cause the solution issue I am seeing? I know nothing about test baseā¦Iām guessing it is hard to keep dissolved in oil?
Donāt both the TP and TNE cystalize upon addition of water to the heet/syno mixture after 1 hour?
Yeah, what Bill said.
7.5g from 5 carts is a pretty typical yield for me. Without knowing what is in your ākitā there is no way to really say what is happening. (Which is one reason why I get the components individually and ābake from scratchā)
Test base is less soluble in oil, which means it shouldāve been filtered out, so I doubt thatās it. There could be a little, but I doubt enough to cause what you describe.
At 5 hrs, it probably wasnāt truly dry (patience my friend), but if there was enough water left to produce cloudiness,I donāt think heating would make it go away.
In any case, I usually make Prop @ 100mg/ml (18%BB, 2%BA) and it just barely holds at room temp.(but I am a cheap bastard who doesnāt like to pay heating bills, so room temp is around 55 overnight and through the day when no one is homeā¦doesnāt happen in the summertime when I am too cheap to pay for AC) I usually have to reheat and redissolve several times during a cycle. I have even just shook it up real good, sucked the crystals into a pin and injected as a suspension with no ill effects.
I am trying my hand at ābake from scratchā todayā¦thatās why I am so happy at finding this thread!
Testolius, I didnāt filter the oil/crystal before ba/bb added. Also, I followed Basskillers recomendation at heating the oil/ba/bb/crystal mixture before filtering it, so everything was in solutionā¦
BTW, YGPM. I pestered you and Bill more about this, hoping not to completely steal this thread! THX
Making transdermals:
Test base will tend to sit on the skin as a solid and typically only 10% gets absorbed.
My insticts are that test ester in oil that is blended into a lotion like product will absorb better as the oil is aborbed into the skin. If a product was partly base and part ester that would not be of much consequence.
When the test ester is absorbed, the ester group will be removed just as this happens with injected test esters.
Well, went through my second conversion today. Went to the added trouble of first filtering through corse material, the binders and methanol solution, then shoved it through a whatman. Result was crystal clear.
Not sure what it bought me except to keep these binders out of my final filtration process (sterilization). Funny thing, added 2.5ml of saturated naoh and let sit for 55 minutes then added maybe 150ml of cold water and set up the drip-wise addition thing and put it all in the fridge.
End up with a thick load of stuff. Filter that out through corse material and tooke the catchings and put them back in the fridge while I continued to rinse. The catchings seemed to create some more crystals, but end up with this strange white crap floating on the top. Doesnāt look crystaline to me.
More like the result of a sinus infection. I am in the process of filtering this out while the washed crystals from the first batch are in the oven at 150F. Will keep the second batch separate until I get some idea as to what that stuff floating isā¦can anybody help?