Suggestion: General Fitness Forum?

Off Topic
161

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
Back to topic, since we are in no position to add or subtract a forum I hope we can all agree to begin to defend at least the bodybuilding forum.

Take this thread for example:
www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=2021768&pageNo=0

The first response says wrong forum yet people kept responding. If it is the wrong forum, whether it should be Beginners, RMP or whatever, we have to stop posting to them (though I do not think anyone posting here did–preaching to the choir).

We have to clean up the forums ourselves.

That said, I am moving more and more towards PX’s take/reaction to the situation.[/quote]

Professor X wrote:
The solution to keeping this hardcore or attracting others who are is to keep one section with this black background, and another section with a …less aggressive color. Provide a link to the articles, but keep them separate completely.

I find merit in this. Some form of completely separate areas. The color coding thing is more significant than it may at first appear. If you mean leaving things as they are, “cleaning up the forums ourselves” will undoubtedly lead to people running away which I’m reasonably sure is being frowned upon.

I’d like to think I’m a passably smart guy. I view the people who run this site as smart guys. My whole premise for this thread has been based on myself trying to view this situation as if I were in their position and to draw conclusions under the assumption that I’m seeing things at least somewhat similarly to how they’re seeing them. I may be wrong about that, but like I say I can’t help thinking that if I were VERY wrong somebody would’ve said so by now. TC, for one, has had no problem speaking up when he thought I was saying something that needed correction.

[quote]Christine said:
Successful business and websites grow and change with demand.[/quote]

This has to be the key for any business. To believe otherwise is just blind stubbornness.

162

Tirib,

I am not suggesting running people off the site, but being firm when people post in the wrong forum. This includes reminding people this is a bodybuilding and powerlifting website when necessary. And this may also include more forums so that it is clearer to users where they should post their question.

163

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
Tirib,

I am not suggesting running people off the site, but being firm when people post in the wrong forum. This includes reminding people this is a bodybuilding and powerlifting website when necessary. And this may also include more forums so that it is clearer to users where they should post their question.[/quote]

The problem is that some (maybe many) don’t view this as a bodybuilding site (don’t ask me how, they just don’t and have pointed this out many times).

164

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
Tirib,

I am not suggesting running people off the site, but being firm when people post in the wrong forum. This includes reminding people this is a bodybuilding and powerlifting website when necessary. And this may also include more forums so that it is clearer to users where they should post their question.[/quote]

See, that’s the point. Tell them to go where? Right now there’s beginners, strength sports and bodybuilding, but there’s a large population who’ve been doing at least what they consider to be training for a while and don’t fit into strength sports and don’t have real size as a goal. The closest thing they see is bodybuilding. Once they’re told they don’t belong there it’s as good as telling them they don’t belong here at all. That would be fine if the world was full of people with above average goals to populate this place. In their absence T-Nation is stuck with catering to a very small minority or taking a stab at accommodating as many people as possible.

This is where the rub is. The vets are thinking “I do not wanna compromise for the sake of placating these underachieving girlie boys”. Anybody familiar with my attitude since I’ve been here knows that I am very sympathetic to that viewpoint, but it is just not sustainable in the current state of world. If you think it is then launch a website dedicated exclusively to people with extreme goals and see how that goes. I predict it would look surprisingly promising for a while until word got out and then the I don’t wannabe huge shortbus would show up at your door too and if there was income involved you’d be faced with the same decision making processes that T-Nation has been wrestling with.

165

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
k.elkouhen wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:

To whoever said to screen people before allowing them into the advanced area, let me just politely say that that is simply unworkable and unenforceable on very level.

Au contraire, mon frere.

First method : Some group of knowledgeable people get Knowledge Points, the mods for instance. Every time somebody gives some good advice he get +1. Every time he says something stupid he gets -1. When the total is greater then “a big value” he gets to post in the advanced section.

Second method : On invitation only.

Of course some people may find some way to abuse the system. But that’s what’s happening right now, isn’t it ?

Since there is no big gain in doing so – nobody will get anything in return for posting-- abuse will stay minimal.

And who cares anyway ? Your screen name is Tribulus. Is that your real identity ? :wink:

I promise you it won’t fly.

My handle is t I r i b u l u s. I took it from a ferocious lion in a cartoon and I used it for years for online gaming. Not tribulus. I wouldn’t name myself after a supplement.[/quote]

Actually I mistyped your screen name. Sorry for the typo.

I was trying to put things in perspective by saying that your identity here is virtual.

You can chose your name. If you want to show your level of development you could steal a pic and use it. etc.

The only things that could eventually betray your real identity (email, ip address) are only known by T-Nation.

It would be pretty easy to impersonate you here, but, it would be a lot harder in real life.

In fine, nobody (not even LowFatMatt) knows who you really are. It could be your wife that wrote that last answer. Or some stranger that used your account after you forgot to log off on some public computer.

So maybe, just maybe you shouldn’t be so preoccupied on enforceable screening. In other words tolerating a little bit of error could go a long way to building the advanced bodybuilders refuge. :slight_smile:

166

[quote]medevac wrote:
<<<the only solution really is heavy moderation and thread moving IMO. Forums are nothing more than open areas where people speak (usually and unfortunately) whatever is on their mind. There is only two ways to control it, with moderation and with peer pressure of the vets.
[/quote]
I agree 100%. The best-quality forums I visit have mods that ruthlessly move threads posted in the wrong forum.

Of course, to do this, a new forum is needed to move the posts TO. As Tiribulus suggested in the first place.

Also, if someone goes on a BB thread and posts “ur all gross and disgusting” then vets should use the “Report post” function and mods should delete it. Free speech is a nice concept verses mod censorship, but again the best forums don’t allow that kind of crap. The level of discussion has nowhere to go but up.

167

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
<<< The problem is that some (maybe many) don’t view this as a bodybuilding site (don’t ask me how, they just don’t and have pointed this out many times).[/quote]

Lemme throw this into the mix from last year’s Soy Awards discussion dated 9/15/07:

I answered somebody else with this"

[quote]He (TC) is of course free to correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think this is what he was talking about. I think he is lamenting the passing of the days when bodybuilding was practically synonymous with overall health, masculinity and physical performance as opposed to today where it is at least perceived to be devoid of any other purpose than to look freaky.

Bottom line is I believe he’s saying that he would prefer it if T-Nation could be a beacon of overall athletic excellence rather than trying to pin down exactly what “bodybuilding” means. Along those lines[/quote]

TC answered me with this:

It’s in that light that this idea arose.

Now here come some people saying “EXCELLENCE MY FOOT!!! half of these guys are just plain pansy ass retards.” Fine. I agree, but what, pray tell, are they supposed to do? Demand an FBI background check before allowing admission to their forums?

168

[quote]christine wrote:
<<<Problem is that people don’t read the descriptions.
[/quote]
I don’t see any description. Just the big word “Bodybuilding” at the top.

Some of the forum names are probably self-explanatory enough, but additional detail never hurts and is necessary for some of the forums.

All these things work together on a high-quality forum:

  • good site organization of forum categories
  • crystal clear explanations of the purpose of each forum
  • a sticky at the top of each forum with any rules specific to that forum, FAQ, and links to articles that new posters must read
  • ruthless moderation and moving of inappropriately placed posts

If it worked like this, it wouldn’t MATTER if someone fancied themselves advanced when they really weren’t. They would be prevented from starting threads with answers in the FAQ or that clearly didn’t fit the forum description.

I’ve seen it work where the mod posts the dumb question, adds his own post saying “I’ve moved this to another forum” or “Read EVERYTHING in the stickies first,” then locks the thread to other posters. The OP usually says “Sorry,” and the presence of the thread deters other stupid posts. New posters start reading the rules and paying attention.

169

[quote]andersons wrote:

I don’t see any description. Just the big word “Bodybuilding” at the top.

Some of the forum names are probably self-explanatory enough, but additional detail never hurts and is necessary for some of the forums.

All these things work together on a high-quality forum:

  • good site organization of forum categories
  • crystal clear explanations of the purpose of each forum
  • a sticky at the top of each forum with any rules specific to that forum, FAQ, and links to articles that new posters must read
  • ruthless moderation and moving of inappropriately placed posts

If it worked like this, it wouldn’t MATTER if someone fancied themselves advanced when they really weren’t. They would be prevented from starting threads with answers in the FAQ or that clearly didn’t fit the forum description.

I’ve seen it work where the mod posts the dumb question, adds his own post saying “I’ve moved this to another forum” or “Read EVERYTHING in the stickies first,” then locks the thread to other posters. The OP usually says “Sorry,” and the presence of the thread deters other stupid posts. New posters start reading the rules and paying attention. [/quote]

This could work well…

170

[quote]andersons wrote:
christine wrote:
<<<Problem is that people don’t read the descriptions.

I don’t see any description. Just the big word “Bodybuilding” at the top.

Some of the forum names are probably self-explanatory enough, but additional detail never hurts and is necessary for some of the forums.

All these things work together on a high-quality forum:

  • good site organization of forum categories
  • crystal clear explanations of the purpose of each forum
  • a sticky at the top of each forum with any rules specific to that forum, FAQ, and links to articles that new posters must read
  • ruthless moderation and moving of inappropriately placed posts

If it worked like this, it wouldn’t MATTER if someone fancied themselves advanced when they really weren’t. They would be prevented from starting threads with answers in the FAQ or that clearly didn’t fit the forum description.

I’ve seen it work where the mod posts the dumb question, adds his own post saying “I’ve moved this to another forum” or “Read EVERYTHING in the stickies first,” then locks the thread to other posters. The OP usually says “Sorry,” and the presence of the thread deters other stupid posts. New posters start reading the rules and paying attention. [/quote]

I like the idea of the Mods moving the post if it is in the wrong forum.

I also like the idea of closing the post and saying, “read the stickies”.

but I want the hardcore guys to really have their own niche. I want them to have compadres that understand what they are doing.

171

[quote]andersons wrote:
christine wrote:
<<<Problem is that people don’t read the descriptions.

I don’t see any description. Just the big word “Bodybuilding” at the top.

Some of the forum names are probably self-explanatory enough, but additional detail never hurts and is necessary for some of the forums.

All these things work together on a high-quality forum:

  • good site organization of forum categories
  • crystal clear explanations of the purpose of each forum
  • a sticky at the top of each forum with any rules specific to that forum, FAQ, and links to articles that new posters must read
  • ruthless moderation and moving of inappropriately placed posts

If it worked like this, it wouldn’t MATTER if someone fancied themselves advanced when they really weren’t. They would be prevented from starting threads with answers in the FAQ or that clearly didn’t fit the forum description.

I’ve seen it work where the mod posts the dumb question, adds his own post saying “I’ve moved this to another forum” or “Read EVERYTHING in the stickies first,” then locks the thread to other posters. The OP usually says “Sorry,” and the presence of the thread deters other stupid posts. New posters start reading the rules and paying attention. [/quote]

“Advanced” can be in the eye of the beholder in some cases and moderation could differ from mod to mod. This leads me to tentatively lean toward more of a “let us handle that part to a large extent” view. On the other hand the “eye of the beholder” aspect is sure to come up with the the members themselves as well which leads me to the tentative nature of my last statement. In other words I’m personally open on that one.

The other three would be excellent in my opinion. I keep saying “in my opinion” because I don’t want anybody on either end to think that I believe my views carry any more weight than being constructive suggestions.

Reading through the My First Time on BB.com thread it’s as if some there are making the argument that what this thread suggests would produce bb.com 2. I contend that what this thread suggests would prevent that very thing for at least that part of this site that would hypothetically come out of it and bb.com 2 is the eventual fate if things keep moving as they are.

172

The day a general fitness section comes is the day I leave. I already have to wade knee-deep through shit bashing pro steroid users and mass monsters, and repeat the same basic advice like I’m on an infinite loop.

A General Fitness will not better this situation; rather, it will make it worse and bodybuilding will slowly be pushed aside.It’s already happening. The glory days are over. There’s ONE damn thread discussing the next O. One.

Hell, I bet a lot don’t know even know what I mean when I say “The next O”. The glory days are over…

…And the forum is gettin’ close to losing more.

173

[quote]k.elkouhen wrote:
<<< So maybe, just maybe you shouldn’t be so preoccupied on enforceable screening. In other words tolerating a little bit of error could go a long way to building the advanced bodybuilders refuge. :-)[/quote]

Uh, I have been saying that screening IS unenforceable and that tolerating some error would be entirely unavoidable in the very nature of any version of this.

174

[quote]Fulmen wrote:

Hell, I bet a lot don’t know even know what I mean when I say “The next O”. [/quote]

Orgasm? lol sorry…

175

[quote]Fulmen wrote:
The day a general fitness section comes is the day I leave. I already have to wade knee-deep through shit bashing pro steroid users and mass monsters, and repeat the same basic advice like I’m on an infinite loop.

A General Fitness will not better this situation; rather, it will make it worse and bodybuilding will slowly be pushed aside.It’s already happening. The glory days are over. There’s ONE damn thread discussing the next O. One.

Hell, I bet a lot don’t know even know what I mean when I say “The next O”. The glory days are over…

…And the forum is gettin’ close to losing more.[/quote]

then go.

The change has happened.

wishing for the old days didn’t bring back the 50’s either.

adapt or perish, you can’t adapt sooooo cya

176

Here’s my unsolicited opinion.

A general fitness section seems like something people can google and find anywhere. MH or whatnot.

I always thought of this place as irreverant, blunt, insensitive, and generally mannish. Unsuprising considering the name of the place. That’s what makes it unique, and is certainly a big part of what I love about the site.

Having said that, if a new forum category were to be created, I most likely would not look there. Maybe introduce a forum category search pulldown…

177

[quote]Fulmen wrote:
<<< A General Fitness will not better this situation; rather, it will make it worse and bodybuilding will slowly be pushed aside.It’s already happening. The glory days are over. >>>[/quote]

It doesn’t have to be a “general fitness” forum. It could be any device that gives people with divergent goals their own place to be who they are without getting on each others nerves. Or at least where getting on each others nerves is more difficult to do. Come on folks. Some of you guys have got to be taking this all wrong.

People bitch and moan about how bad this site is becoming, somebody starts a thread designed to present some user input on ways to address that and it’s [quote]“no way, I don’t want any changes. I just want what I want”.[/quote]

Don’t you see the contradiction. It sucks, but don’t change it?

I have to be honest. I’m surprised by some of the response, or I should say who it’s coming from.

I expected the weenies to be crying about how they’re being painted as weenies and it’s the people I thought would be saying [quote]“yeah, give these people somewhere to go where we aren’t obligated to deal with them”[/quote] who are crying [quote]“either they go or I go”[/quote]

Geez, life doesn’t always give you everything you want the way you want it. It’s full of next best things and many times even worse. That’s just the way it is.

I am not getting what would be so fatally wrong with having your own area to hang out with like minded lifters.

178

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Geez, life doesn’t always give you everything you want the way you want it. It’s full of next best things and many times even worse. That’s just the way it is.[/quote]

I know that, hence my sticking around.

I want a website wholly dedicated to bodybuilding, and I thought this was the site. I was wrong; albeit it wasn’t WHOLLY bodybuilding, but the forums were pretty much filled with bodybuilding shit. Now it’s just too watered down.

I don’t give a damn about the masses or those just looking to get healthy, yadda yadda. I want my bodybuilding.

BTW, you’re still cool in my book, Tiri; I don’t think there’s anything wrong with making a helpful suggestion. You’re one of the few that got my respect.

179

[quote]medevac wrote:
Fulmen wrote:

Hell, I bet a lot don’t know even know what I mean when I say “The next O”.

Orgasm? lol sorry…[/quote]

That would be the big O.

180

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
k.elkouhen wrote:
<<< So maybe, just maybe you shouldn’t be so preoccupied on enforceable screening. In other words tolerating a little bit of error could go a long way to building the advanced bodybuilders refuge. :slight_smile:

Uh, I have been saying that screening IS unenforceable

[/quote]

I fully understand that you believe screening to be unenforceable.

I should have said : “you shouldn’t be so preoccupied by the fact that screening is unenforceable”.

What I’m saying is that you don’t actually need 100 % success rate for the act of screening to be successful.

Some error is tolerable.

Besides which, it’s pretty easy to see who’s talking through their hats and who has a sound understanding of bodybuilding.

Using knowledge as the basis for the act of screening could work pretty well.