Suggestion: General Fitness Forum?

Off Topic
141

[quote]andersons wrote:

The one who pays the bills makes the rules. Tiribulus understands this.

We’re not paying the bills to run this site. We’re not paying to use it. We have no right to criticize the audience Biotest hopes to sell products to, in order to sponsor this free-for-users site. Biotest needs to make money in order for this site to exist. Tiribulus understands this too.
[/quote]

Please explain where I was criticising Biotest?

[quote]

And money is like muscle: more is better than less.

(And anyone who wants to argue that money doesn’t or shouldn’t matter, please save it. Not wanting more money is just as dumb as not wanting more muscle. In fact, it’s a lot dumber because no one NEEDS 250 pounds of muscle, but EVERYONE NEEDS money.)

This is business, people. The economic realities of the real world apply.

In business, any time you purposely limit your market, you need customers willing to pony up a lot of money. I don’t see that happening in bodybuilding.

In fact, it doesn’t make economic sense to purposely limit your market unless limiting it ATTRACTS big spenders to your product or service. Like a country club, for example.

If you want to create a country club for hardcore bodybuilders, good luck with that. “Hardcore bodybuilders” are a small and shrinking market. The few newcomers to the market tend to be 17-year-old males with little disposable income to spend on the Biotest supplements that fund this site. (Nor is this demographic famous for choosing truth about discipline and effort over marketing hype.)

Maybe people don’t NEED supplements to get “generally fit,” but they sure as heck will buy them. If you’re in business selling supplements, you can’t afford to ignore a big market willing to spend money on your product. Such customers may seem dumb to you, but their dollars are just as good as your dollars.

T-Nation was originally created to be hardcore and expanded its market out basic economic necessity. If just “promoting the truth about bodybuilding” worked as you hoped it would, then there would be a LARGER hardcore market here today. “Promoting the truth” isn’t generally a good marketing strategy. In the world of bodybuilding supplements, I bet that pure lies work better to sell product.

Hardcore-only site? Nice in theory; doesn’t work in the harsh real world where it costs money to run a site. Anyone wanting to challenge this should start his own hardcore site. I sincerely mean that.[/quote]

I though we were discussing a proposed new forum for people who don’t bodybuild, but simply want to be generally fit?

These people do not need supplements, and I honestly cannot see a company like the one we all use choosing to market themselves to people who think walking to the fridge is exercise.

Why you felt the need to produce a condescending post about “economic realities” I do not know. The Biotest image is of supplements that are cutting edge and produce excellent results, this does not tie in with your suggestion that selling to every man in the street is the way to go. Unless things have changed recently, the editors always chime in stating that they still have integrity and seek to not just sell crap to people who will make zero progress.

As far as “promoting the truth” goes, as you seemingly took great issue with, I was referring to the information provided to board members in order to explain that there is effort required to build muscle. That is surely a good thing is it not? If people make progress, maybe they’ll keep buying from Biotest maybe?

142

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
<<<I think that they think we actually do have a right to criticize, debate, argue and even flame here provided it’s not done in a way that costs them business. What I’m proposing would make all that even more possible as far as I can still tell.

I also don’t want to be associated with a statement that appears to imply that T-Nation or Biotest employ shady, disingenuous or dishonest means in their business.[/quote]

Yikes, no, that’s absolutely not what I meant at all. I wouldn’t be a customer if I thought Biotest was shady. But selling to the general fitness crowd, even if they do need discipline more than they need HOT-ROX (as another poster said), isn’t shady. Although the general fitness crowd may not need supplements, it would be financially dumb to turn them away criticizing their mediocre goals.

Sure, we can criticize stupid things said by individual posters. But it’s ridiculous to criticize THE FACT THAT T-Nation wants to reach the general fitness market because they need to make money to provide this site.

On this thread, you have been criticized for being willing to accommodate a broader market of people on a FREE site that you don’t personally pay for. !!!

I am annoyed by the attitude of entitlement: “I’m not paying for it, but I want the site to be just for me and my friends who are just like me, and keep everybody else out.” It’s like kids who complain about what restaurant their parents are taking them to for dinner. Preferring Ruth Chris Steakhouse is fine; complaining that you’re being taken to the Cheesecake Factory instead is NOT.

143

[quote]andersons wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
<<<I think that they think we actually do have a right to criticize, debate, argue and even flame here provided it’s not done in a way that costs them business. What I’m proposing would make all that even more possible as far as I can still tell.

I also don’t want to be associated with a statement that appears to imply that T-Nation or Biotest employ shady, disingenuous or dishonest means in their business.

Yikes, no, that’s absolutely not what I meant at all. I wouldn’t be a customer if I thought Biotest was shady. But selling to the general fitness crowd, even if they do need discipline more than they need HOT-ROX (as another poster said), isn’t shady. Although the general fitness crowd may not need supplements, it would be financially dumb to turn them away criticizing their mediocre goals.

Sure, we can criticize stupid things said by individual posters. But it’s ridiculous to criticize THE FACT THAT T-Nation wants to reach the general fitness market because they need to make money to provide this site.

On this thread, you have been criticized for being willing to accommodate a broader market of people on a FREE site that you don’t personally pay for. !!!

I am annoyed by the attitude of entitlement: “I’m not paying for it, but I want the site to be just for me and my friends who are just like me, and keep everybody else out.” It’s like kids who complain about what restaurant their parents are taking them to for dinner. Preferring Ruth Chris Steakhouse is fine; complaining that you’re being taken to the Cheesecake Factory instead is NOT.[/quote]

I don’t really think that is the intent by most. I know for myself I welcome any and all, but I do think that it is less likely for me to keep coming if I have no one with the same type of goals, motivation or drive! Currently there are very few in the female section of the board. I can and do play well with the boys…but it is/was nice to have some like minded females to share with. That is the main complaint from Prof X and such. They and I have to wade thru a bunch of other stuff, including insults, to get to the like minded comments and conversation. IT gets old and after a while you just get tired of doing it.

But if everyone had a little section to go to – and did not muck up everyone elses – life could be alittle better. That is all.

144

[quote]firebug9 wrote:
Nothing against the lady’s posting in there, but have you looked at who considers themselves powerful - or even in the pursuit of power lately? Most of the threads really belong in the muscle sorority with the fitness girls, because that really is closer to there goals. Most of those who really were in persuit of true power have started logging elsewhere. I am currently out of the gym due to a surgery, but am not sure I want to continue to post here. I really do not have any one to ask questions of or get true feedback from. If that makes any sense to ya.

[/quote]

It does make sense.

145

I think that the bodybuilding forum should be left alone.

Additionally, some people just don’t want to admit that they are only after general fitness or are still a beginner. Just recently when I suggested to someone that they should review the beginners threads, and they insisted that because they have read so much and had been training for X amount of time that they weren’t a beginner. I say if you look like a beginner, you are a beginner.

Anyway, these people think that they are more hardcore, and will therefore post where they shouldn’t.

I also think that an advanced bodybuilding section would be good, but not to call it advanced bodybuilding… because, again, people think they are advanced when they really aren’t.

Maybe something like Monster Hardcore Bodybuilding. A place for people who want to be told they are way too muscley.

Give the forum a name that would scare the mirror muscle boys & peacocks away.

146

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
I think the advanced area is a good idea. It can make clear that it’s for “Wanna get BIG” bodybuilders. Hopefully that would limit people posting just to debate the merits of bigness.

firebug, I know you said that people are still criticizing your goals in the PW forum, but has it helped at all? Is it any better?[/quote]

I personally would not prefer a new area for advanced trainees because that actually would be surrendering the bodybuilding forum to the underwear models. The advanced, serious, hardcore or whatever other label you want to give them were here first and this site was in fact originally for them.

If anybody should be given somewhere else to hang out, in my opinion it should be those with lesser ambitions as they are the relative newcomers. The other way around would be like a bunch of chalk covered sweaty mass monsters showing up at menshealth and demanding that the long standing readership go find somewhere else to gather.

I further am inclined to believe that if it were done the way I’m saying it would be both understood by most off the I don’t wanna be huge guys and would be seen as a more genuine offer to the original T-Nation inhabitants. They’d be thinking “oh great, now building = the underwear models and we’re now the sooper dooper wierdos?”

This of course is from the standpoint of principle and not numbers as the original audience is now in the distinct minority.

147

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

I personally would not prefer a new area for advanced trainees because that actually would be surrendering the bodybuilding forum to the underwear models. The advanced, serious, hardcore or whatever other label you want to give them were here first and this site was in fact originally for them.

If anybody should be given somewhere else to hang out, in my opinion it should be those with lesser ambitions as they are the relative newcomers. The other way around would be like a bunch of chalk covered sweaty mass monsters showing up at menshealth and demanding that the long standing readership go find somewhere else to gather.

I further am inclined to believe that if it were done the way I’m saying it would be both understood by most off the I don’t wanna be huge guys and would be seen as a more genuine offer to the original T-Nation inhabitants. They’d be thinking “oh great, now building = the underwear models and we’re now the sooper dooper wierdos?”

This of course is from the standpoint of principle and not numbers as the original audience is now in the distinct minority.[/quote]

First of all, who gives a shit who was where first? Borders change all the time. Ideas and definitions evolve. Successful business and websites grow and change with demand.

Secondly, do the guys who really want to get huge care whether or not someone else thinks they are a “sooper dooper wierdo”? If the goal is to be bigger than everyone else, you will be different than everyone else. People who are different are often thought of as weird (for good or bad).

148

[quote]christine wrote:
<<< First of all, who gives a shit who was where first? Borders change all the time. Ideas and definitions evolve. Successful business and websites grow and change with demand.

Secondly, do the guys who really want to get huge care whether or not someone else thinks they are a “sooper dooper wierdo”? If the goal is to be bigger than everyone else, you will be different than everyone else. People who are different are often thought of as weird (for good or bad).
[/quote]

What you say is true in many cases, but being considered a weirdo for wanting extreme achievement on a site called Testosterone Nation with pictures of really big guys on the front page is… weird.

Also, the people this place was founded for and marketed towards may care who was here first. Again, I’m not in charge and the honchos may see it your way. I’m just expressing my view.

149

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
EmilyQ wrote:
I think the advanced area is a good idea. It can make clear that it’s for “Wanna get BIG” bodybuilders. Hopefully that would limit people posting just to debate the merits of bigness.

firebug, I know you said that people are still criticizing your goals in the PW forum, but has it helped at all? Is it any better?

I personally would not prefer a new area for advanced trainees because that actually would be surrendering the bodybuilding forum to the underwear models. The advanced, serious, hardcore or whatever other label you want to give them were here first and this site was in fact originally for them.

If anybody should be given somewhere else to hang out, in my opinion it should be those with lesser ambitions as they are the relative newcomers. The other way around would be like a bunch of chalk covered sweaty mass monsters showing up at menshealth and demanding that the long standing readership go find somewhere else to gather.

I further am inclined to believe that if it were done the way I’m saying it would be both understood by most off the I don’t wanna be huge guys and would be seen as a more genuine offer to the original T-Nation inhabitants. They’d be thinking “oh great, now building = the underwear models and we’re now the sooper dooper wierdos?”

This of course is from the standpoint of principle and not numbers as the original audience is now in the distinct minority.[/quote]

People who believe their goals fit the definition of “bodybuilding” will bypass “general fitness” (“That’s probably for people who do jumping jacks,” they’ll say to themselves on their way to the bodybuilding section, where everyone, they’ll figure, shares their goal of looking like Matthew McConaughey).

The point is not who was here first, but how to solve the problem. The problem is, as I understand it, that you’re overrun by people who don’t share your goals.

One way to get rid of them is to have a place called “Getting Sooper Dooper Wierdly Big,” where they won’t want to be. Then you can go back and forth to the old areas as you see fit, but they won’t want to follow you. What will you have lost? Only an area you don’t any longer like.

150

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

People who believe their goals fit the definition of “bodybuilding” will bypass “general fitness” (“That’s probably for people who do jumping jacks,” they’ll say to themselves on their way to the bodybuilding section, where everyone, they’ll figure, shares their goal of looking like Matthew McConaughey).
[/quote]

QFT, have you seen the “BBing.com” thread? Guys who have gained 10 lbs in 6 months coming in at 160lbs and are worried they are getting too much bulk. We are generally not talking about people who could make a distinction of what websites to visit, much less which forum on that website they belong in.

Or, perhaps more naively, I am hoping they would end up in the BBing forum because maybe they looked up to some huge guy they ran into the gym and aspire to be that.

Either way they will end up there, and the only solution really is heavy moderation and thread moving IMO. Forums are nothing more than open areas where people speak (usually and unfortunately) whatever is on their mind. There is only two ways to control it, with moderation and with peer pressure of the vets.

Sub-forums help, but only if the current posters ask for it and want to discuss that topic. This target group you speak unfortunately don’t know enough to go there and post. :frowning:

If you had a hypothetical group that was asking “hey not sure where to post this but my cholesterol was really high and not sure what to do about it” then it would work. But that sort of poster isn’t the problem.

151

This is where more precise descriptions come in and if they still don’t heed then they have made themselves fair game for flaming.

152

I’ve only been here for 2 years but remember some of the names that Prof. X threw out there. Especially Amsterdam Animal. Losing members like him is a travesty. The Brotherhood of Iron thread isn’t the same without him.

I don’t know how to fix the situation. I just know that this place will never be the same if we continue to lose our elder members. Hell, it’s already different 'round here.

153

LOL at today’s Strong Words.

It seems quite a few need to be reminded of that.

154

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

To whoever said to screen people before allowing them into the advanced area, let me just politely say that that is simply unworkable and unenforceable on very level.

[/quote]

Au contraire, mon frere.

First method : Some group of knowledgeable people get Knowledge Points, the mods for instance. Every time somebody gives some good advice he get +1. Every time he says something stupid he gets -1. When the total is greater then “a big value” he gets to post in the advanced section.

Second method : On invitation only.

Of course some people may find some way to abuse the system. But that’s what’s happening right now, isn’t it ?

Since there is no big gain in doing so – nobody will get anything in return for posting-- abuse will stay minimal.

And who cares anyway ? Your screen name is Tribulus. Is that your real identity ? :wink:

155

[quote]k.elkouhen wrote:

Your screen name is Tribulus.

[/quote]

Look again.

156

[quote]k.elkouhen wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:

To whoever said to screen people before allowing them into the advanced area, let me just politely say that that is simply unworkable and unenforceable on very level.

Au contraire, mon frere.

First method : Some group of knowledgeable people get Knowledge Points, the mods for instance. Every time somebody gives some good advice he get +1. Every time he says something stupid he gets -1. When the total is greater then “a big value” he gets to post in the advanced section.

Second method : On invitation only.

Of course some people may find some way to abuse the system. But that’s what’s happening right now, isn’t it ?

Since there is no big gain in doing so – nobody will get anything in return for posting-- abuse will stay minimal.

And who cares anyway ? Your screen name is Tribulus. Is that your real identity ? :wink:

[/quote]

I promise you it won’t fly.

My handle is t I r i b u l u s. I took it from a ferocious lion in a cartoon and I used it for years for online gaming. Not tribulus. I wouldn’t name myself after a supplement.

157

[quote]Professor X wrote:
LOL at today’s Strong Words.

It seems quite a few need to be reminded of that.

Normal is not something to aspire to, it’s something to get away from.�??Jodie Foster[/quote]

And from Agent Starling/Nell nonetheless.

158

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
This is where more precise descriptions come in and if they still don’t heed then they have made themselves fair game for flaming.[/quote]

Problem is that people don’t read the descriptions. They just read the forum name and then the thought process goes like this:

“Hmmm… I’ve been going to the gym off and on for a few years, and regularly for the last three months, and I read every article on T-Nation. I must be advanced.”

159

[quote]christine wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
This is where more precise descriptions come in and if they still don’t heed then they have made themselves fair game for flaming.

Problem is that people don’t read the descriptions. They just read the forum name and then the thought process goes like this:

“Hmmm… I’ve been going to the gym off and on for a few years, and regularly for the last three months, and I read every article on T-Nation. I must be advanced.”

[/quote]

It doesn’t matter what is done or not done, but you’re right. There is an alarmingly large number of people who are too lazy to read the descriptions, but see themselves as motivated enough to be taken seriously.

The fact remains if there is not some way for folks with ultimate goals to meet here and be themselves they will no longer meet here at all and that trend is in full swing as I type this. So again, if they wander in asking if 1200 calories is too much or complaining about how icky big guys are they can be promptly escorted to their own area and if they decide to stick around after that they deserve what’s coming. Viewed from the standpoint of the other guys it would be better for them as well. They wouldn’t have to put up with us either.

I’ve acknowledged a half dozen times already that there is no perfect solution possible. Were talking about human beings here… on all sides… and lots of em.

160

Back to topic, since we are in no position to add or subtract a forum I hope we can all agree to begin to defend at least the bodybuilding forum.

Take this thread for example:
http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=2021768&pageNo=0

The first response says wrong forum yet people kept responding. If it is the wrong forum, whether it should be Beginners, RMP or whatever, we have to stop posting to them (though I do not think anyone posting here did–preaching to the choir).

We have to clean up the forums ourselves.

That said, I am moving more and more towards PX’s take/reaction to the situation.