Suggestion: General Fitness Forum?

Honestly I think it’s a pretty good idea, though I can see what Prof. X and others are saying.

The problem is that site is already largely populated by “general fitness” types. Take a look at the “Who here really trains?” thread.

So it’s not really a matter of “do we want to attract such types to this forum” but more so “such types are already flocking to this forum, what should we do with them?”

They don’t really fit into the Strength Sports forum because they’re usually not training for a specific sport. They don’t fit into the Bodybuilding Forum because they’re not really training for Bodybuilding (though they could probably learn a lot from reading that forum). They won’t categorize themselves as Beginners. Many of them are not females, so they don’t fit into the MWA forum.

As a result they wind up hanging around all the forums and posting comments that just wind up with page after page of one side telling them that they don’t belong there and the other side saying that they have just as much right to be there as anyone.

If there was a specific forum for them, then maybe that might at least help the problem a little.

If you were to cut your leg open, then slowing the blood using pressure points would be far from the ideal solution. But, if you don’t do something about it you’re gonna bleed to death.

So far I haven’t seen anyone suggest a superior alternative solution. If anyone has one please let us know. Until then, Tirib’s idea seems like it would at least slow the bleeding (so to speak).

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
To address what Firebug and Epimetheus are saying, like I said before, of course there is no perfect solution. There will be guys asking if they’re eating too many egg whites in the Bodybuilding forum. The difference would be we could tell them to go play with the rest of the “I don’t wanna be huge” guys in the other forum without anybody on the backend wincing because they’re afraid this guy is going to run away.

I agree that more precise names in this model would go a long way toward helping this work.

Right now Professor X, for one, is thinking that I’m a pathetic sellout. I understand that point of view, but prefer to see it as inevitable and unavoidable social pragmatism. To continue to fight is certain defeat. To divide the territory now is some form of victory for everybody. Yet once more, in my opinion.

[/quote]

I don’t think you are a pathetic sellout. I don’t even think Tim or TC are sellouts. I am more pissed at the way society seems to be changing and it isn’t in a good way. People everywhere seem to be happy becoming little cardboard cutouts. Substance seems to be lost.

I hate that eventually I’m just going to leave and will probably have to rely on those who are still left in the gyms at 2am or the ones who understand that “blood, sweat and tears” line as being a bit more literal for communication with more serious trainers.

I tell you what confuses the hell out of me, however, is why those who do run this board seem to back off of any further support of bodybuilding. Maybe my perception is off, but it seems that way to me.

From the looks of things, anyone who has any goal beyond “super thin with rockin’ abs” is few and far between…and it’s the people who define a place anyway.

I came to T-Nation because I was writing a book and needed some terminology. T-Nation popped up when I googled for weight equipment, or whatever. That was almost a year ago. I was (am) a dedicated runner, a cardio bunny.

But I’ve stayed. Over the course of that year I’ve expanded my workout focus to include lifting weights. My husband, a dedicated cyclist, is doing it as well.

I think what many of you forget is that people inclined to athletics of one sort or another share traits in common. We tend to be goal-oriented, competitive, driven people who like to play hard with our bodies. My husband went to college on an athletic scholarship. Tennis, he was state-ranked. When he was deeply involved in martial arts he won trophies at that. Now he’s lifting weights. Maybe he’ll never be huge. Maybe he’ll never be hardcore. But you know, maybe he will. You don’t know who today’s “I just want some definition” people will be tomorrow. Everyone started somewhere. Even Professor X. (I guess. He may have been born big, I don’t know.)

Since January of this year, I’ve ordered three times from Biotest. Between us we’re spending what I calculate to be $2.33 a day on it. Last time we ordered we read through the product list and debated whether we might want anything else. Eventually, we probably will. Not right now, though, because right now we’re focused on the $.79/lb we’re having to pay to keep up with his rapidly expanding capacity (and desire) to lift more weight.

I don’t post in the bodybuilding forums unless to “good job” someone who’s caught my eye or aroused my sympathies. I’m a beginner, so have nothing to add, and I’m competent at finding the information I need when I have a question. I read, I forward articles to my husband, and I participate in the light forums. And I buy product.

I think I probably represent a solid success to the developers of Testosterone Nation online. They built a website that attracted a reader who then became a customer.

I think many of you confuse this place with a storefront. In which case, it’s really, really good to have dedicated customers. Hardcore is best in that setting, no question. But T-Nation is more like a mall, I think. The message boards are the mall itself. Anyone can come in and hang out. But it’s the people shopping in the stores that provide the funds to support the mall. If potential shoppers are limited to certain areas of the mall they may never even enter the store. Had I been somehow consigned to a general fitness area, I’d have simply continued what I was doing previously. And my husband’s elbows would never have made that weird popping sound that started us thinking about fish oil…

I think another thing to bear in mind is that message boards have a natural ebb and flow. The virtual community is like any other. People move. People have fusses and fights and declare the whole thing ruined and leave. That’s just natural.

In the mean time can we agree that if a thread in the bodybuilding forum belongs somewhere else we can make that comment and leave it alone? No flaming, no jokes, no attention. So if a newbie asks: “Which the the best protein before bed?” Someone can answer “Read the stickies in Beginners forum”

After that no more comments and the thread falls off the front page.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
and my personal favorite, “I’ve got 15” arms, how do I lose some of this extra mass so that I stop scaring all of the girls away forum"[/quote]

Or how about “I Just Wanna Get Toned” forum or “The Richard Simmons Forum”?

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
In the mean time can we agree that if a thread in the bodybuilding forum belongs somewhere else we can make that comment and leave it alone? No flaming, no jokes, no attention. So if a newbie asks: “Which the the best protein before bed?” Someone can answer “Read the stickies in Beginners forum”

After that no more comments and the thread falls off the front page. [/quote]

No. If a post is flame worthy, I plan on torching the shit out of it. If someone is truly just in the wrong place, then by all means, show them some direction.

If someone posts, "When you’re that big it’s gross. I would never want to be that size. Does anyone? " in a thread specifically about Kevin Levrone in the BODYBUILDING FORUM of this site, they deserve to be flamed (reference http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=2012573 ). Not flaming these jackasses is what allows them to keep doing it. People have stopped jumping into the bodybuilding forum (for now) just to tell us they don’t want to be big BECAUSE they got flamed.

Why do you want to stop our community service? What have we ever done to you?

[quote]Professor X wrote:

I tell you what confuses the hell out of me, however, is why those who do run this board seem to back off of any further support of bodybuilding. Maybe my perception is off, but it seems that way to me.

From the looks of things, anyone who has any goal beyond “super thin with rockin’ abs” is few and far between…and it’s the people who define a place anyway. [/quote]

I can tell you that from my perspective, this place IS for people wanting to lift heavy weight. I absolutely see the focus being on support of serious weightlifting, both from a strength perspective and a competitive one.

I knew I’d been assimilated when I saw a magazine cover with David Beckham on it and thought, “Wow. He’s really scrawny.” Now I look at Brad Pitt in Troy and can’t remember what I used to think was so impressive.

Perhaps you’ve just gotten so used to it here, you take that for granted.

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
Professor X wrote:

I tell you what confuses the hell out of me, however, is why those who do run this board seem to back off of any further support of bodybuilding. Maybe my perception is off, but it seems that way to me.

From the looks of things, anyone who has any goal beyond “super thin with rockin’ abs” is few and far between…and it’s the people who define a place anyway.

I can tell you that from my perspective, this place IS for people wanting to lift heavy weight. I absolutely see the focus being on support of serious weightlifting, both from a strength perspective and a competitive one.

I knew I’d been assimilated when I saw a magazine cover with David Beckham on it and thought, “Wow. He’s really scrawny.” Now I look at Brad Pitt in Troy and can’t remember what I used to think was so impressive.

Perhaps you’ve just gotten so used to it here, you take that for granted.[/quote]

Perhaps, but I would bet on “has seen this place change from what it was” first if I were you. Before threads like “The Favorite Bodybuilding Picture Thread” and others, competitive bodybuilding had actually been degraded on this site quite a bit. That changed a little when Stan Mcquay became their spokesperson (or whatever his title truly is). From what I understand (someone correct me if I’m wrong), but Testosterone has cut way back on their presence at actual bodybuilding competitions.

To someone new to this, any discussion about bodybuilding would stand out to you.

[quote]Uncle Gabby wrote:
A-Dizz wrote:
I can’t believe people are actually considering that this new forum might be a good idea. What the hell is happening to this place?

-dizzle

Wow. That’s a persuasive argument. Care to elaborate?
[/quote]

This used to be a site devoted to the devoted. This place was a haven for the people who were dedicated to not being in the majority of “I don’t wanna get TOO big” and “Should I be taking NO-Xplode or Muscle Milk?”

Like I said in my BB.com thread, I’ve been reading tons of old threads and this place used to be so much different. I’ve only been here for a little over a year and even since then it’s changed a lot. These forums were places where people would get encouragement and good advice, and flaming was kept to a minimum, but you know why? Because the only people that came here knew at least the basics of lifting and nutrition, and even if they didn’t they were very open to learning. The jerk offs that come here now post pictures of their 165 lb skinny-fat torsos in the Rate My Physique forum, asking for advice and then not only disregarding any adive they’re given, but actually fighting with the people giving it!

T-Nation didn’t used to have all the flames because people either already knew what they were talking about or because if they didn’t they were open to suggestions. The MH/BB.com-redirected douche bags are coming here in the masses and tearing this place apart. Making a new forum for these assholes to feel welcome is only going to aggrevate the iminent demise of this website and it’s devout members.

Vote “no” on proposition General Fitness.

-dizzle

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Perhaps, but I would bet on “has seen this place change from what it was” first if I were you. Before threads like “The Favorite Bodybuilding Picture Thread” and others, competitive bodybuilding had actually been degraded on this site quite a bit. That changed a little when Stan Mcquay became their spokesperson (or whatever his title truly is). From what I understand (someone correct me if I’m wrong), but Testosterone has cut way back on their presence at actual bodybuilding competitions.

To someone new to this, any discussion about bodybuilding would stand out to you.[/quote]

That’s true, and you’re right. I haven’t been here.

But the site has increased awareness and respect for what you do. For your goals (functional muscle, yes?), for the goals of olympic lifters, of the guys on steroids, and of the show bodybuilders. None of whom were on my radar before.

That may not matter to you. But it does seem like a form of support to me.

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
Professor X wrote:

Perhaps, but I would bet on “has seen this place change from what it was” first if I were you. Before threads like “The Favorite Bodybuilding Picture Thread” and others, competitive bodybuilding had actually been degraded on this site quite a bit. That changed a little when Stan Mcquay became their spokesperson (or whatever his title truly is). From what I understand (someone correct me if I’m wrong), but Testosterone has cut way back on their presence at actual bodybuilding competitions.

To someone new to this, any discussion about bodybuilding would stand out to you.

That’s true, and you’re right. I haven’t been here.

But the site has increased awareness and respect for what you do. For your goals (functional muscle, yes?), for the goals of olympic lifters, of the guys on steroids, and of the show bodybuilders. None of whom were on my radar before.

That may not matter to you. But it does seem like a form of support to me.

[/quote]

Don’t get me wrong. What you wrote does matter to me. I am glad you jumped in this thread. I would rather hear about how some people became more involved than how some newbie doesn’t want huge muscles.

However, people like you won’t maintain the more intense nature that attracted most of those guys in the first place.

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
I think what many of you forget is that people inclined to athletics of one sort or another share traits in common. We tend to be goal-oriented, competitive, driven people who like to play hard with our bodies. My husband went to college on an athletic scholarship. Tennis, he was state-ranked. When he was deeply involved in martial arts he won trophies at that. Now he’s lifting weights. Maybe he’ll never be huge. Maybe he’ll never be hardcore. But you know, maybe he will. You don’t know who today’s “I just want some definition” people will be tomorrow. Everyone started somewhere. Even Professor X. (I guess. He may have been born big, I don’t know.)[/quote]

No one here has a problem with athletes coming to the site. And good for your husband getting a scholarship and all. But I bet he does not come on to the site and down play others goals or accomplishments. That is where the problem is with others that come here. They do.

[quote]
Since January of this year, I’ve ordered three times from Biotest. Between us we’re spending what I calculate to be $2.33 a day on it. Last time we ordered we read through the product list and debated whether we might want anything else. Eventually, we probably will. Not right now, though, because right now we’re focused on the $.79/lb we’re having to pay to keep up with his rapidly expanding capacity (and desire) to lift more weight.[/quote]

Well it does not just take the spending of money to get what you want here – if it did the average of $6.33 per day I have spent for the past 5+ years should go some where - don’t ya think?

[quote]
I don’t post in the bodybuilding forums unless to “good job” someone who’s caught my eye or aroused my sympathies. I’m a beginner, so have nothing to add, and I’m competent at finding the information I need when I have a question. I read, I forward articles to my husband, and I participate in the light forums. And I buy product.

I think I probably represent a solid success to the developers of Testosterone Nation online. They built a website that attracted a reader who then became a customer.

I think many of you confuse this place with a storefront. In which case, it’s really, really good to have dedicated customers. Hardcore is best in that setting, no question. But T-Nation is more like a mall, I think. The message boards are the mall itself. Anyone can come in and hang out. But it’s the people shopping in the stores that provide the funds to support the mall. If potential shoppers are limited to certain areas of the mall they may never even enter the store. Had I been somehow consigned to a general fitness area, I’d have simply continued what I was doing previously. And my husband’s elbows would never have made that weird popping sound that started us thinking about fish oil…

I think another thing to bear in mind is that message boards have a natural ebb and flow. The virtual community is like any other. People move. People have fusses and fights and declare the whole thing ruined and leave. That’s just natural.[/quote]

I really don’t think we are all that confused as you think. I think the newbies are confused by what they see and read. At one time this was a very HardCore site, that is why I started reading, posting and yes buying products. I liked the fact that I had people to talk to that did not think I was a freak because I wanted to squat heavy as a female. Well it has come full circle. There are fewer and fewer females or males on here that lift heavy or have any goals other than to look good nekid. Not that it is a bad or wrong goal, but neither is mine, Prof X’s, Trib or any one else who’s goal it is to put on size and train hard core.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
<<< I don’t think you are a pathetic sellout. I don’t even think Tim or TC are sellouts. I am more pissed at the way society seems to be changing and it isn’t in a good way. People everywhere seem to be happy becoming little cardboard cutouts. Substance seems to be lost.

I hate that eventually I’m just going to leave and will probably have to rely on those who are still left in the gyms at 2am or the ones who understand that “blood, sweat and tears” line as being a bit more literal for communication with more serious trainers.

I tell you what confuses the hell out of me, however, is why those who do run this board seem to back off of any further support of bodybuilding. Maybe my perception is off, but it seems that way to me.

From the looks of things, anyone who has any goal beyond “super thin with rockin’ abs” is few and far between…and it’s the people who define a place anyway. [/quote]

I honestly don’t see anything in the articles or powerful images etc. to make me think that they don’t want hardcore people here. It’s just that they also would like the rest to feel welcome as well. That state of affairs to this point has led the hardcore folks to believe that they are being invaded off this site and there has been some unintentional truth to that.

That’s the point of this thread. In the larger view of things I don’t see the world ending if we have our place and they have theirs. In terms of sheer numbers they WILL succeed in having this WHOLE place the way things are now.

As far as what EmilyQ is saying, nobody has anything against people with SERIOUS athletic aspirations. Everybody doesn’t have to be a bodybuilder or want to be huge, but try this. What if there were a forum for sports training and eventually you wound up sitting in there surrounded by people who consider their morning walks “sports trainng”? Wouldn’t you start thinking “what the hell happened to all the folks I used to trade training tips with?”

To use the mall analogy, yes, the store is separate, but the more people you can draw into the mall the more views you get for your product. Think of the forums as like conference rooms in the mall where like minded people gather and talk. It would be no fun to have to have to shout over the cacophony of people you have nothing in common with to get a few words in with the few you do, but you can’t really blame those people because they have nowhere else to go. Eventually the original people just give up and find someplace else to meet away from both the mall and the store.

Nobody is restricted from listening anywhere and if they had a serious question that could be addressed by somebody outside of their own group I can’t imagine them being abused for that. Imagine there already is a general fitness forum and somebody needs to gain a few pounds for whatever reason. They might say: “maybe one the bodybuilding guys could chime in here with some tips, that’s what they do after all.” Does anybody think the bodybuilding people are so arrogant and mean that nobody would speak up and help?

I see much more good coming from this than bad once people got used to it.

Just as long as is doesn’t turn into some gayness fitness planet bullshit. I am all for it! The more people that have some sort of fitness lifestyle the better. Obesity and diseases from it are on the rise and if it takes some T-men and T-ladies to help them out …so be it!

[quote]Professor X wrote:

If someone posts, "When you’re that big it’s gross. I would never want to be that size. Does anyone? " in a thread specifically about Kevin Levrone in the BODYBUILDING FORUM of this site, they deserve to be flamed (reference P [/quote]

That’s just pathetic.

[quote]A-Dizz wrote:
Uncle Gabby wrote:
A-Dizz wrote:
I can’t believe people are actually considering that this new forum might be a good idea. What the hell is happening to this place?

-dizzle

Wow. That’s a persuasive argument. Care to elaborate?

This used to be a site devoted to the devoted. This place was a haven for the people who were dedicated to not being in the majority of “I don’t wanna get TOO big” and “Should I be taking NO-Xplode or Muscle Milk?”

Like I said in my BB.com thread, I’ve been reading tons of old threads and this place used to be so much different. I’ve only been here for a little over a year and even since then it’s changed a lot. These forums were places where people would get encouragement and good advice, and flaming was kept to a minimum, but you know why? Because the only people that came here knew at least the basics of lifting and nutrition, and even if they didn’t they were very open to learning. The jerk offs that come here now post pictures of their 165 lb skinny-fat torsos in the Rate My Physique forum, asking for advice and then not only disregarding any adive they’re given, but actually fighting with the people giving it!

T-Nation didn’t used to have all the flames because people either already knew what they were talking about or because if they didn’t they were open to suggestions. The MH/BB.com-redirected douche bags are coming here in the masses and tearing this place apart. Making a new forum for these assholes to feel welcome is only going to aggrevate the iminent demise of this website and it’s devout members.

Vote “no” on proposition General Fitness.

-dizzle[/quote]

Everything I’ve already said has addressed what you’re saying here.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I’m holding out hope that maybe at least one forum can be an oasis of what this site was originally all about. [/quote]

Why make one forum an oasis for the original? Why not keep the site original, and if people aren’t interested in the “hardcore” weightlifting culture, then they can go to bb.com and stay the fuck out.

This thread is so anti-bodybuilding it is ridiculous. I need to order some Alpha Male having just read the title.

I’m off to get huge, see you all later.

[quote]PozzSka wrote:
This thread is so anti-bodybuilding it is ridiculous. [/quote]

You couldn’t be further from the truth. Have you actually read any of Trib’s posts in this thread? He has explained his position at least 10 different times in the clearest language possible.

Try reading first so you will know what you are posting about.

[quote]firebug9 wrote:

No one here has a problem with athletes coming to the site. And good for your husband getting a scholarship and all. But I bet he does not come on to the site and down play others goals or accomplishments. That is where the problem is with others that come here. They do.

Well it does not just take the spending of money to get what you want here – if it did the average of $6.33 per day I have spent for the past 5+ years should go some where - don’t ya think?

I really don’t think we are all that confused as you think. I think the newbies are confused by what they see and read. At one time this was a very HardCore site, that is why I started reading, posting and yes buying products. I liked the fact that I had people to talk to that did not think I was a freak because I wanted to squat heavy as a female. Well it has come full circle. There are fewer and fewer females or males on here that lift heavy or have any goals other than to look good nekid. Not that it is a bad or wrong goal, but neither is mine, Prof X’s, Trib or any one else who’s goal it is to put on size and train hard core.
[/quote]

firebug, my intention wasn’t to brag about a scholarship or suggest that buying $2 a day in supplements gives me the right to influence T-Nation policy. It was simply to point out that newbies evolve, and athletes are likely to shift as they see new challenges.

That’s all. No offense intended.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

As far as what EmilyQ is saying, nobody has anything against people with SERIOUS athletic aspirations. Everybody doesn’t have to be a bodybuilder or want to be huge, but try this. What if there were a forum for sports training and eventually you wound up sitting in there surrounded by people who consider their morning walks “sports trainng”? Wouldn’t you start thinking “what the hell happened to all the folks I used to trade training tips with?”

To use the mall analogy, yes, the store is separate, but the more people you can draw into the mall the more views you get for your product. Think of the forums as like conference rooms in the mall where like minded people gather and talk. It would be no fun to have to have to shout over the cacophony of people you have nothing in common with to get a few words in with the few you do, but you can’t really blame those people because they have nowhere else to go. Eventually the original people just give up and find someplace else to meet away from both the mall and the store.

[/quote]

Fair enough.