Suggestion: General Fitness Forum?

There does need to be a lot less noise here. I’ve been in about out of T for the past few years and now I mainly hit up the old articles and/or read the ‘discuss’ threads. The Bodybuilding forum seems to be saturated with 17 year-olds and, while not trying to dissuade youngsters from bodybuilding, see the Justin Timberlakes taking over.

It just doesn’t seem that hardcore around here (though its VERY easy to spot the guys/gals who know what they’re on about and/or are progressing in their goals to achieve their ambitions).

Containment is one thing, but some things just don’t go together. T-Nation is for a specific crowd of people. And while its fine for people to come in and take a look around, the initial T spirit and heart need to be maintained.

Adding a crèche to T-Nation might be fine to some, but MH forums already exist.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Tex Ag wrote:
In the mean time can we agree that if a thread in the bodybuilding forum belongs somewhere else we can make that comment and leave it alone? No flaming, no jokes, no attention. So if a newbie asks: “Which the the best protein before bed?” Someone can answer “Read the stickies in Beginners forum”

After that no more comments and the thread falls off the front page.

No. If a post is flame worthy, I plan on torching the shit out of it. If someone is truly just in the wrong place, then by all means, show them some direction.

If someone posts, "When you’re that big it’s gross. I would never want to be that size. Does anyone? " in a thread specifically about Kevin Levrone in the BODYBUILDING FORUM of this site, they deserve to be flamed (reference http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=2012573 ). Not flaming these jackasses is what allows them to keep doing it. People have stopped jumping into the bodybuilding forum (for now) just to tell us they don’t want to be big BECAUSE they got flamed.

Why do you want to stop our community service? What have we ever done to you? [/quote]

Oh, if they are flameworthy by all means. I was thinking more about guiding the question topic into the appropriate forum. Now, if they need to be shown proverbial the door…

Actually, when I have asked bad questions I have been ignored and I have been torched until I reworked my original question into one that was answerable. So, I was taught the ropes. Fine by me, every community has their own rules.

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
firebug9 wrote:

No one here has a problem with athletes coming to the site. And good for your husband getting a scholarship and all. But I bet he does not come on to the site and down play others goals or accomplishments. That is where the problem is with others that come here. They do.

Well it does not just take the spending of money to get what you want here – if it did the average of $6.33 per day I have spent for the past 5+ years should go some where - don’t ya think?

I really don’t think we are all that confused as you think. I think the newbies are confused by what they see and read. At one time this was a very HardCore site, that is why I started reading, posting and yes buying products. I liked the fact that I had people to talk to that did not think I was a freak because I wanted to squat heavy as a female. Well it has come full circle. There are fewer and fewer females or males on here that lift heavy or have any goals other than to look good nekid. Not that it is a bad or wrong goal, but neither is mine, Prof X’s, Trib or any one else who’s goal it is to put on size and train hard core.

firebug, my intention wasn’t to brag about a scholarship or suggest that buying $2 a day in supplements gives me the right to influence T-Nation policy. It was simply to point out that newbies evolve, and athletes are likely to shift as they see new challenges.

That’s all. No offense intended. [/quote]

EmilyQ,

No offense taken. But many of the newbies think that since they spend x dollars here that they are entitled. Part of the problem. I agree people do change, shift and evolve. Problem is as I see it that the site seems to be evolving backwards to some extent.

Trib is right that it is a business decision and the truely hardcore will most likely still come and purchase the products because of the quality and such. It is just to bad that we will be missing out on their input, tips and conversations.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
A-Dizz wrote:
Uncle Gabby wrote:
A-Dizz wrote:
I can’t believe people are actually considering that this new forum might be a good idea. What the hell is happening to this place?

-dizzle

Wow. That’s a persuasive argument. Care to elaborate?

This used to be a site devoted to the devoted. This place was a haven for the people who were dedicated to not being in the majority of “I don’t wanna get TOO big” and “Should I be taking NO-Xplode or Muscle Milk?”

Like I said in my BB.com thread, I’ve been reading tons of old threads and this place used to be so much different. I’ve only been here for a little over a year and even since then it’s changed a lot. These forums were places where people would get encouragement and good advice, and flaming was kept to a minimum, but you know why? Because the only people that came here knew at least the basics of lifting and nutrition, and even if they didn’t they were very open to learning. The jerk offs that come here now post pictures of their 165 lb skinny-fat torsos in the Rate My Physique forum, asking for advice and then not only disregarding any adive they’re given, but actually fighting with the people giving it!

T-Nation didn’t used to have all the flames because people either already knew what they were talking about or because if they didn’t they were open to suggestions. The MH/BB.com-redirected douche bags are coming here in the masses and tearing this place apart. Making a new forum for these assholes to feel welcome is only going to aggrevate the iminent demise of this website and it’s devout members.

Vote “no” on proposition General Fitness.

-dizzle

Everything I’ve already said has addressed what you’re saying here.[/quote]

I understand, but I was addressing Uncle Gabby’s interest in an explanation of my initial post.

-dizzle

[quote]Uncle Gabby wrote:
PozzSka wrote:
This thread is so anti-bodybuilding it is ridiculous.

You couldn’t be further from the truth. Have you actually read any of Trib’s posts in this thread? He has explained his position at least 10 different times in the clearest language possible.

Try reading first so you will know what you are posting about.[/quote]

Uncle Gabby is quite correct and also has the clearest possible grasp on my motivations here.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Uncle Gabby wrote:
PozzSka wrote:
This thread is so anti-bodybuilding it is ridiculous.

You couldn’t be further from the truth. Have you actually read any of Trib’s posts in this thread? He has explained his position at least 10 different times in the clearest language possible.

Try reading first so you will know what you are posting about.

Uncle Gabby is quite correct and also has the clearest possible grasp on my motivations here.[/quote]

Just because people disagree with you doesn’t mean they can’t grasp the situation.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Uncle Gabby wrote:
PozzSka wrote:
This thread is so anti-bodybuilding it is ridiculous.

You couldn’t be further from the truth. Have you actually read any of Trib’s posts in this thread? He has explained his position at least 10 different times in the clearest language possible.

Try reading first so you will know what you are posting about.

Uncle Gabby is quite correct and also has the clearest possible grasp on my motivations here.[/quote]

You hate bodybuilding and you are a twink. That is all very clear. [/sarcasm]

Somebody brought up another dimension of this. People bettering themselves and becoming healthier can only be a good thing. There are dozens of online communities where they can find companionship in that endeavor, but many find their way here. A general fitness or whatever forum could include those people.

Like EmilyQ was saying, maybe a few would catch the bug and actually wind up with some larger goals in the long run.

I can honestly see much long term good coming out of something like this with very little new risk. Any of the criticisms I’ve seen so far are of things that are no longer in danger of happening because they’re already a reality.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Just because people disagree with you doesn’t mean they can’t grasp the situation.[/quote]

Absolutely. But I was specifically addressing the poster who said this thread was “anti-bodybuilding” which shows he needs to actually read the thread before he responds to it.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Uncle Gabby wrote:
PozzSka wrote:
This thread is so anti-bodybuilding it is ridiculous.

You couldn’t be further from the truth. Have you actually read any of Trib’s posts in this thread? He has explained his position at least 10 different times in the clearest language possible.

Try reading first so you will know what you are posting about.

Uncle Gabby is quite correct and also has the clearest possible grasp on my motivations here.

Just because people disagree with you doesn’t mean they can’t grasp the situation.[/quote]

I wasn’t saying YOU didn’t grasp the situation. I was saying that he did just as a way of seconding what he told that guy.

You have got to know after this much time that we are on the same page 99% of the time as far as training, nutrition, attitude etc. are concerned. We’ve supported each other many times in the year and a half I’ve been here.

Please don’t take anything I’m saying here as an attack you. For the sake of argument, if something like this were to come to pass and you decided to leave anyway I would consider it as having accomplished the exact opposite of what I’d hoped for.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Somebody brought up another dimension of this. People bettering themselves and becoming healthier can only be a good thing. There are dozens of online communities where they can find companionship in that endeavor, but many find their way here. A general fitness or whatever forum could include those people.

Like EmilyQ was saying, maybe a few would catch the bug and actually wind up with some larger goals in the long run.

I can honestly see much long term good coming out of something like this with very little new risk. Any of the criticisms I’ve seen so far are of things that are no longer in danger of happening because they’re already a reality.

[/quote]

The whole point of this site though is not for people to come here to “get healthier,” the point is for them to add slabs of muscle, get really lean, and increase all their lifts. This isn’t a site for someone to come and be generally fit, so other than for the monetary aspect, I don’t understand why T-Nation would cater to that demographic.

I also think that every point that anyone can make has been beaten to death on this thread. You’re either for this new forum, or against it, and we can pretty much understand why just by stating your position.

-dizzle

[quote]A-Dizz wrote:
<<< The whole point of this site though is not for people to come here to “get healthier,” the point is for them to add slabs of muscle, get really lean, and increase all their lifts. This isn’t a site for someone to come and be generally fit, so other than for the monetary aspect, I don’t understand why T-Nation would cater to that demographic.[/quote]

YES, it now is a site for people to come and get healthy, lose fat, get abs, etc. as well as extreme achievement. Since I haven’t been soundly rebuked yet I’ll also say YES, the monetary aspect, which has been defined in terms beyond T-Nations control, is driving that. I will further ask you what I asked before. Would YOU turn away a burgeoning market to avoid offending what has become undeniably the small minority in this industry if it were YOUR money? Were not talking about national security or Biotest scamming anybody. Were talking about a business doing what business do if they want to survive and thrive.

[quote]A-Dizz wrote:
I also think that every point that anyone can make has been beaten to death on this thread. You’re either for this new forum, or against it, and we can pretty much understand why just by stating your position.
-dizzle[/quote]

It doesn’t have to be THIS forum. It could any useful restructuring or nothing at all. I have no authority here.

I am simply recognizing both the business world Biotest lives in AND the views of those who feel that they are running out of reasons to be here in the hope that some equitable reconciliation can be reached.

It’s costing myself, them or anybody else nothing more than some conversation and disc space.

Personally I’d like to hear more opinions.

Don’t worry Tirib-

I’m cleanin’ up the Bodybuilding forum as we speak.

I don’t think the bodybuilding forums would be any less cluttered with bullshit if the general fitness people had their own forum. If you think about it, they’ve already got their own communities (men’s fitness) already, so if they were interested in that they wouldn’t be here in the first place.

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
I don’t think the bodybuilding forums would be any less cluttered with bullshit if the general fitness people had their own forum. If you think about it, they’ve already got their own communities (men’s fitness) already, so if they were interested in that they wouldn’t be here in the first place.[/quote]

Being in these forums makes them feel more serious than they would at some other places. You could be right in that that same illusion may continue to draw them into the Bodybuilding forum even if there were one designated for them, but what is there to lose at this point by seeing if that’s the case.

The difference would be, again, they could be told that they belong in the other forum without running them off the site altogether or winding up in a pissing match in the Bodybuilding forum.

Some of my friends here may really dislike this,(maybe) but I’m trying to also view this from the standpoint of the owners. They don’t want these people to stomp off in a huff after 3 posts. I don’t blame them for that for all the reasons I’ve stated already. Having somewhere to send them is still the best answer I’ve heard.

Isn’t the whole point of “general fitness” that it is already largely common knowledge, and thus hardly needs a forum on a (largely) bodybuilding site to promote and discuss it.

I honestly cannot see anything that needs posting in regard to general fitness beyond:

“Get out of your chair, put down the cheese and try moving about a bit”.

There, forum closed.

I’m also pretty sure that people don’t need supplements in order to be “generally fit”, they don’t have any requirement for supplementation as they aren’t actually placing any demands on their bodies - so the commercial reasoning for it seems pretty bleak.

I always hoped that by promoting the truth about bodybuilding (lots of effort and food and discipline) that people may make some progress and therefore set greater goals beyond looking average. Starting up this forum just seems like a way to promote mediocrity.

So, put me down for a “no”.

I haven’t read the whole thread, but can’t we just rename the “Beginners” forum to “General Fitness”? Save the “Bodybuilding” forum for those who don’t quit lifting weights after Spring Break.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

Actually right now they are all over the Bodybuilding forum which has undeniably caused oodles of once active members to hardly post at all or disappear altogether. [/quote]

It just occurred to me that maybe the reason for this change is that the Physique Clinic discussions are on the Bodybuilding forum. The Physique Clinic stuff is being emailed in newsletters and probably attracting new traffic to the site and to the Bodybuilding forum.

I absolutely agree with your basic premise that it would be good for T-Nation to accommodate people with different interests.

And again, I agree that the “look good naked” market is large and has no forum devoted to it. I don’t think “General Fitness” would be an ideal name, but a dedicated forum sounds like a good idea.

In your OP I think you mentioned people saying “I don’t want to get big.” These people MUST be newbies and should be calmly and civilly redirected to the Beginners forum. Hardcore BB may think they deserve to be flamed, but most people respond better to a polite “That’s fine, but you’re in the wrong place; post on the Beginner forum.”

However, what about the guy who doesn’t want to get “huge” but DOES want to get bigger? For example, maybe he doesn’t aspire to 20" arms, but he does want to add 1", or 2", or whatever to them. If he’s not a beginner, but not welcome in the hardcore forum either, then he’s got nowhere to go. This is a big mistake; this type of person is more likely than anyone else to be tomorrow’s hardcore bodybuilder. With a bodybuilding market that’s small and shrinking, it’s dumb to push these people away for their “mediocre” goals.

My modifications to the forums would look like this:

  • “Bodybuilding” is renamed “Advanced Bodybuilding.” Its description (every forum has a description of its purpose) says something like “non-beginners with hypertrophy goals.” A sticky FAQ at the top includes a treatment of the fear of getting huge.

  • New forum, to be named, for the “Look Good Naked” goal. “Look good naked” usually involves fat loss, so that’s what it will primarily be about. (However, a lot of people, if they do succeed in losing the fat, may be surprised how scrawny they look and may decide to switch to the hypertrophy goal, thus increasing the BB community.)

  • Most Physique Clinics move to the “Look Good Naked” forum.

  • EVERY forum needs a sticky or two with FAQ and links to key articles. EVERY newcomer who asks questions that are answered in the FAQs/articles should be politely steered to them. Every time. I can think of a great forum where skilled professionals help newbies; the members always insist that newbies read the stickies and articles. It works out really well. The newbies learn. Only the motivated ones stick around. The vets don’t get sick of answering basic FAQ.

(BTW, saying “use the search” does NOT work, especially for a huge site like this; results don’t have the greatest relevance so it’s a pain. Links must be provided.)

Another example - the Supplements and Nutrition forum should have sticky with links to articles about each Biotest supplement. And links to each commonly-used diet. Newcomers don’t know where to find this information. A lot of needless threads could be eliminated.

  • Logs have their own forum(s). Ideally hierarchically organized under the appropriate goal (Advanced BB, Beginners, Look Good Naked, Strength Sports, etc.).

I’m sure these suggestions could use more thought. I’m still not sure about the possible overlap between Beginners and Look Good Naked, for example. However, some of these other organization principles and practices work well in other forums I use.

[quote]Joe D. wrote:
Isn’t the whole point of “general fitness” that it is already largely common knowledge, and thus hardly needs a forum on a (largely) bodybuilding site to promote and discuss it.

I honestly cannot see anything that needs posting in regard to general fitness beyond:

“Get out of your chair, put down the cheese and try moving about a bit”.

There, forum closed.

I’m also pretty sure that people don’t need supplements in order to be “generally fit”, they don’t have any requirement for supplementation as they aren’t actually placing any demands on their bodies - so the commercial reasoning for it seems pretty bleak.

I always hoped that by promoting the truth about bodybuilding (lots of effort and food and discipline) that people may make some progress and therefore set greater goals beyond looking average. Starting up this forum just seems like a way to promote mediocrity.

So, put me down for a “no”.[/quote]

This is exactly how I feel.

[quote]andersons wrote:
In your OP I think you mentioned people saying “I don’t want to get big.” These people MUST be newbies and should be calmly and civilly redirected to the Beginners forum. Hardcore BB may think they deserve to be flamed, but most people respond better to a polite “That’s fine, but you’re in the wrong place; post on the Beginner forum.”

However, what about the guy who doesn’t want to get “huge” but DOES want to get bigger? For example, maybe he doesn’t aspire to 20" arms, but he does want to add 1", or 2", or whatever to them. If he’s not a beginner, but not welcome in the hardcore forum either, then he’s got nowhere to go. This is a big mistake; this type of person is more likely than anyone else to be tomorrow’s hardcore bodybuilder. With a bodybuilding market that’s small and shrinking, it’s dumb to push these people away for their “mediocre” goals.[/quote]

The problem (as I see it) ISN’T that they “don’t wanna get huge”, but that they openly insult/belittle the efforts of people that DO. I don’t give a shit what someone else’s goals are. I give a shit when they jump into threads to degrade mine. I can share a forum with those guys (as I don’t really have a choice, right?) - as long as they learn that there are times, places, and threads for their opinions on “not getting too big”.

As for the guy who is only looking to add a some size and maybe 1-2 inches to the guns - the processes between getting “big” and getting “huge” aren’t so radically different from each other that they require an entirely separate forum - I think the fact that so many people believe that it DOES is another thing that rubs people the wrong way.

I think general idiocy and discourtesy are the things that piss most people off here, not necessarily differing goals.