[quote]Professor X wrote:
If no one is going to put forth any effort to maintain what this site was originally about, there are no solutions. It will slowly happen and anyone more serious than “look, I benched the bar” will just leave.[/quote]
Agreed. Hell, as you know X, even one of the popular writers here even hates bodybuilding.
I’m just gonna go have a beer.
[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
I like the idea of a sports training forum. A lot of football questions and the like get posted in beginners.
[/quote]
That’s kind of what I was thinking. Even when people are really just casual they will (internally) associate themselves with people at a higher level, the most common being athlete’s since they watch them on TV and used to play themselves.
[quote]Ruggerlife wrote:
Interesting discussion.
The way I see it, some see this as a discussion of segmenting the website based on goals/purpose of use, whereas others see it as a discussion as to the identity of the site. This is really similar to the discussions months ago about the establishment of MWA.
I don’t have an answer, but what about some sort of way to “redirect” the people in question. Scanning the current forums, I’d say many of the people of “general health” would fit in the Beginners forum. However, we know nobody is a beginner because in high school they knew this guy that trained and he told them… so they know what to do. So is there there a way to redirect them to the Beginners forum maybe through a name change?
Alternatively, what about rather than a “General fitness” forum, creating an “Athletic” forum. This could possibly be done by removing the word “Photos” from the “Physique and Performance Photos” forum.
These opinions more reflect the segregation issue rather than the site direction, but I feel the impact can be minimized through careful selection of wording.
And if that doesn’t work, we just flame the pansies!
Just my thoughts.
[/quote]
The direction of the site is established. That debate is over and has been for a while. I think where my view differs from some is that I’m more bewildered with modern men and their faggoty view of themselves than I am with T-Nation. It’s not their fault that hardcore trainees are a dwindling breed. What are they supposed to do? All take a giant pay cut in the name of keeping the faith?
Would all of you do that in your own livelihood? What some are calling pandering is just the nature of business. I’m hoping for a way the most people possible will be here. I’m not married to this or that forum name. Let’s also not forget that none of us has that call in our power. They may decide everything,s good as is.
I think it’s as much our fault as it is the influx of 110 lb Emo sheep and T-Nation’s accomodation of them. There’s nothing that stops legitimate posts from being posted. People just get exasperated by the bullshit and don’t post. It is frustrating when the legit posts that do exist are invaded by tools and weekend warriors. But we shouldn’t let them get those posts off track either.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
The direction of the site is established. That debate is over and has been for a while. [/quote]
Maybe for the moment, but Tim and TC are not stupid and unless they become fixated on a single direction, they are likely always considering change.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I think where my view differs from some is that I’m more bewildered with modern men and their faggoty view of themselves than I am with T-Nation. [/quote]
This is quite possibly the best quote I’ve heard in months, maybe years. It should be a contender for the Strong Words section!
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
It’s not their fault that hardcore trainees are a dwindling breed. What are they supposed to do? All take a giant pay cut in the name of keeping the faith?[/quote]
Definitely agree, the bastards should take a pay cut! power to the people, down with the establishment!!! 
[quote]Fulmen wrote:
Professor X wrote:
If no one is going to put forth any effort to maintain what this site was originally about, there are no solutions. It will slowly happen and anyone more serious than “look, I benched the bar” will just leave.
Agreed. Hell, as you know X, even one of the popular writers here even hates bodybuilding.
I’m just gonna go have a beer.
[/quote]
What writer hates bodybuilding?
[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
Ruggerlife wrote:
I like the idea of a sports training forum. A lot of football questions and the like get posted in beginners.
[/quote]
There’s a strength sports section.
After reading all of the arguments, I for one have changed my position. The previous posters are right - Biotest is a company and they want to sell their product, and the best way to do that is to have as many people on the site as possible. This benefits all of us because it keeps the site free. While Biotest can’t just be a whore and try to attract ALL demographics, an “athletic” crowd is not too much of a stretch.
If they are going to be here, they may as well have a place to congregate. That being said, I still worry that they won’t use it. But its a step in the right direction.
Seeing as how the “new direction” of the forums has been established, what does that mean for the company which supports it?
I first came to T-Nation because of Charles Staley. I was a wee, WEE individual, favoring the Bruce Lee physique, general health, and a cure-all for my random injuries and chronic problems. I thought I was smart, and would grow minutely, but importantly, from reading the ideas of the Well-Established Trainers.
Turns out, I wasn’t so smart. And I grew a LOT.
I learned how to learn, both from the great articles posted, and from reading the interactions of the authors and readers. I tested, tasted, and used some amazing supplements that didn’t rape my via the wallet. I actually communicated with several authors whose help changed the way my body worked, and changed how much help I could give to my clients when my training business was viable.
Of course, I was still just a karate guy that lifted a little weight (more than when I started, but not enough to be strong, never enough to be strong).
From 5’ 8" 125lbs to same height, 210lbs of fat, to 190lbs of muscle, from ignorant kid with loose plans to well-educated man with iron-clad actions, from something non-dramatic to something over-dramatic, T-Ma . . . er, T-Nation, has been an example of HOW to do, train, learn. Is it the Holy Grail of athletics? Naw. It’s pretty damn good, though, I don’t see any other single source being better. But, the talent pool has thinned, and what’s remaining could seriously do with some chlorine and shock.
At this point, I think I’m rambling, so I’ll be brief since I’ve been verbose: the Hardcore’s Core is off-center. WE, those that train for, seek knowledge in the pursuit of, purchase supplements for the purpose of, EXCELLENCE, need a place to be. The “general fitness” guys have everything. The martial artists/MMA trainees, footballers, basketballers, rugby, extreme spooning, Power Lifting, Strong Man, have Strength sports. Everyone’s got a niche. T-Nation should be that niche.
No new forum. Just more Harder Core in each forum, showing the way.
I only joined T-Nation recently (this is my first post), but I’ve been reading for a couple of years.
I’m certainly not hardcore like a lot of you guys, but I’m learning and making steady progress in my goals. If I did ever feel the need for advice on my program I guess I’d be torn between the Beginners and Body Building forum…
But, the point I’d like to make is that the Body Building forum is already established as somewhere that noobs visit and post in. I think you’re fighting an impossible battle to try and get each of them to move to a General Health forum, especially when new noobs join daily.
Instead, I suggest the creation of a new forum for the Hardcore. Somewhere where people with real time under the bar can discuss their issues. Most noobs will be smart enough to steer clear of such a forum and, if not, I’m sure they will get deal with swiftly.
If strangers keep showing up and shitting in your house, why not move to a new, nicer place down the road? Install a few deadlocks, add a vicious dog or three and make sure to carry a big stick to teach anyone who needs it a lesson!
That’s my take, anyway.
[quote]anonym wrote:
Professor X wrote:
The Rate My Physique forum was one of the earlier attempts at making room for these fucks - can you honestly say that THAT is a success?[/quote]
Actually, I do think it is a success. This way they are not continuously posting in other threads. I simply never go to rate my physique unless I need a laugh.
The only unfortunate part of this, is that there is no place for people who should seriously be able to have you rate their physique, IE bodybuilders.
^
most real bodybuilders don’t want to have their physique rated until competition time, and damn sure not by the internet.
[quote]Fulmen wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Agreed. Hell, as you know X, even one of the popular writers here even hates bodybuilding.
I’m just gonna go have a beer.
[/quote]
Now which one are we talking about here, cause there’s one who hates bodybuilding, but not the pursuit of getting large. There’s also one who writes a certain “hammer” column who seems to think the only form of progress is scale weight going down. I understand the desire to be marketable, but I also think that diversity is an honorable pursuit as well. I’m torn between my desire to see T-Nation grow and my desire to keep vegan physiques from ending up in the ‘rate my physique’ forum.
[quote]Epimetheus wrote:
Fulmen wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Agreed. Hell, as you know X, even one of the popular writers here even hates bodybuilding.
I’m just gonna go have a beer.
Now which one are we talking about here, cause there’s one who hates bodybuilding, but not the pursuit of getting large. There’s also one who writes a certain “hammer” column who seems to think the only form of progress is scale weight going down. I understand the desire to be marketable, but I also think that diversity is an honorable pursuit as well. I’m torn between my desire to see T-Nation grow and my desire to keep vegan physiques from ending up in the ‘rate my physique’ forum.[/quote]
Here’s where I think some of you guys are missing it. You keep acting like there’s still a possibility that the old glory days (for lack of a better way of putting it) would return if we just harass the underwear models into leaving. READ MY LIPS. They are not leaving in any large numbers and the hardcore guys HAVE LEFT and are down to a token representation. By hardcore guys I mean those for whom lifting weights and nutrition are a major priority and who have standout goals, especially those with some years under their belt.
The real kicker that brings tears to your eyes is that T-Nation wants them here. Like it or not they are business and once again as somebody struggling mightily to get my own business off the ground I cannot fault them for pursuing an honest livelihood. The question IS NOT, how do we recapture the old days. That is not happening while the vast majority of the population is not interested in that happening. I really don’t think that the T-Nation honchos rejoice in the fact that their original audience has shrunk so drastically, but it has and they are left with no other sound business choice than adjusting to the available market.
The only question remaining is whether there can be a way to draw some of that original audience back and retain what’s left in a relatively peaceful coexistence, tense as it will surely be. If your answer is “hell no, I don’t want those pussies here” then I’m wasting my time. I happen to believe it is possible. I also happen to believe there’s no other choice. I also happen to blieve that the Bodybuilding forum should belong to it’s original residents and it’s the underwear models who need to a new house. I don’t know if that part of it is ultimately feasible or not.
I’m not pointing an accusing finger at anybody on any side of this. Once again I’m just trying to be a good citizen. I also have no inside info on how things are going. Maybe everything,s just how they want it, but I can’t imagine them actually not wanting the hardcore guys here if it didn’t mean they had to trade new people for them. I also can’t help thinking that if I were WAAAY off on all of this somebody would have said so by now.
I can’t believe people are actually considering that this new forum might be a good idea. What the hell is happening to this place?
-dizzle
[quote]A-Dizz wrote:
I can’t believe people are actually considering that this new forum might be a good idea. What the hell is happening to this place?
-dizzle[/quote]
It is not what is happening – it is what has happened! Like it or not the fitness/underwear models are here to stay. Those of us who are female strength athletes have already been moved to our own forum – and still get the fitness bunnies in it…So yes although they will still post on the new forum, it will be fewer.
Malinda
I believe it could work. One thing would need to be changed, though: The description under the bodybuilding forum. The current one is too vague; they’d need something like “for guys (and gals?) who wanna have to turn sideways to walk through doors”. Maybe that’s not the best line to tell people where the line is drawn, but I think you get the idea. It would it much easier to distinguish between what goes where. Thread topic: “Dorian Yates could block out the sun with a lat spread” goes in the bodybuilding forum. “60 y.o. and my knees feel like they are being repeatedly pummeled with hammers” and “I can’t see my penis please help” would probably go well in a general fitness forum.
[quote]A-Dizz wrote:
I can’t believe people are actually considering that this new forum might be a good idea. What the hell is happening to this place?
-dizzle[/quote]
Wow. That’s a persuasive argument. Care to elaborate?
[quote]firebug9 wrote:
A-Dizz wrote:
I can’t believe people are actually considering that this new forum might be a good idea. What the hell is happening to this place?
-dizzle
It is not what is happening – it is what has happened! Like it or not the fitness/underwear models are here to stay. Those of us who are female strength athletes have already been moved to our own forum – and still get the fitness bunnies in it…So yes although they will still post on the new forum, it will be fewer.
Malinda[/quote]
You are right, it has happened. The deal is done.
To address what Firebug and Epimetheus are saying, like I said before, of course there is no perfect solution. There will be guys asking if they’re eating too many egg whites in the Bodybuilding forum. The difference would be we could tell them to go play with the rest of the “I don’t wanna be huge” guys in the other forum without anybody on the backend wincing because they’re afraid this guy is going to run away.
I agree that more precise names in this model would go a long way toward helping this work.
Right now Professor X, for one, is thinking that I’m a pathetic sellout. I understand that point of view, but prefer to see it as inevitable and unavoidable social pragmatism. To continue to fight is certain defeat. To divide the territory now is some form of victory for everybody. Yet once more, in my opinion.