[quote]irishlifting wrote:
Well if you are pushing your work set hard on a 3 week and only get 5, then how would the op continue to work joker sets into his programming. Start too light as per every 5/3/1 book written[/quote]
Joker sets are not programmed from what I understand, they are used if and only if a trainee is to the point where they understand how to auto-regulate their training. The op probably needs to reset his TM, since he hasn’t in 10 cycles or so.
[quote]StrengthDawg wrote:
Don’t “HAVE” to but the 3 week is 90% of TM, which is 90% of supposed real 1rm, or 80%. One should be able to do more than 5 reps IF their 1rms are what they say they are. One should typically be able to do 80% of 1rm 8ish times. now, several cycles in, one adds 10# / 5# to their TM’s each cycle, their 1rms their TM’s can be close to or even exceed starting point 1rm’s. This is where the 5 steps forward / 3 steps back premise really shines. [/quote]
I agree that in early cycles and when TM is reset you should be able to hit 3-4 additional reps. Like I said, you don’t “have” to hit the additional reps since there are always other variables to consider.
[quote]irishlifting wrote:
Well if you are pushing your work set hard on a 3 week and only get 5, then how would the op continue to work joker sets into his programming. Start too light as per every 5/3/1 book written[/quote]
Joker sets are not programmed from what I understand, they are used if and only if a trainee is to the point where they understand how to auto-regulate their training. The op probably needs to reset his TM, since he hasn’t in 10 cycles or so.
[quote]StrengthDawg wrote:
Don’t “HAVE” to but the 3 week is 90% of TM, which is 90% of supposed real 1rm, or 80%. One should be able to do more than 5 reps IF their 1rms are what they say they are. One should typically be able to do 80% of 1rm 8ish times. now, several cycles in, one adds 10# / 5# to their TM’s each cycle, their 1rms their TM’s can be close to or even exceed starting point 1rm’s. This is where the 5 steps forward / 3 steps back premise really
I agree that in early cycles and when TM is reset you should be able to hit 3-4 additional reps. Like I said, you don’t “have” to hit the additional reps since there are always other variables to consider. [/quote]
So therefore you have validated my initial response to the op to lower his tm. I personally think jokers can be programmed but obviously at some point tms need to be reset. I agree with you totally on auto regulation, this is something that a lot of 5/3/1r’s really need to grasp.
I started back on it to build my base after competing non stop for a few years. To date I’ve went through 7 cycles and can still hit 10 reps on a 1 week with any given lift and the weights are by no means light. I personally tend to only hit a joker set(s) for each lift once a month but each to there own
[quote]irishlifting wrote:
I started back on it to build my base after competing non stop for a few years. To date I’ve went through 7 cycles and can still hit 10 reps on a 1 week with any given lift and the weights are by no means light. I personally tend to only hit a joker set(s) for each lift once a month but each to there own
[/quote]
If it works for you great, but if you can hit 10 on your 1+ day isn’t your TM a little too low? How many are you hitting on your 5+ day, 25?
531 2nd Ed pg. 30-31
Jim talks about stalling when you can’t hit your minimum reps then you reset to 90% of your current calculated max. He mentions you will probably go 5-7 cycles, and he even went 8 cycles once before resetting.
Beyond 531 pg. 7
Jim talks about training to keep your TM to 90% of your max, but with TM progress you will eventually not be able to complete the required reps, and thus stall.
The higher your training max gets, the less ability you will have to do joker sets.
On this forum Jim frequently recommends 5 forward / 3 back. This means automatically resetting even if you haven’t stalled. This is probably his most current recommendation. Especially combined with joker sets, you can keep intensity high after resetting.
For my own training I am going to continue until I stall or just make the minimum reps, then reset. From that point forward I will do the 5F/3B progression. I am on my 6th cycle, I had to reset my deadlift already after the 5th cycle, barely getting 1 on my last 531 week. On my press I just hit 6 reps on 5’s week and will probably get a double on 531 week. So I might have one more cycle in me on press. My squat I reset due to (minor) injury and I am doing 5’s progression to get it back up. My bench is rolling and last cycle I hit a solid joker set each week.
Joker sets are for strength so you need to take appropriate rest. I did 11 reps on my 5+ bench day, then did a 5 rep joker set @95%. I rested something like 3-5 minutes between.
[quote]irishlifting wrote:
I started back on it to build my base after competing non stop for a few years. To date I’ve went through 7 cycles and can still hit 10 reps on a 1 week with any given lift and the weights are by no means light. I personally tend to only hit a joker set(s) for each lift once a month but each to there own
[/quote]
If it works for you great, but if you can hit 10 on your 1+ day isn’t your TM a little too low? How many are you hitting on your 5+ day, 25? [/quote]
No i generally go by jims rule in beyond of 10,8,5 for the respective weeks. However I really struggled to get ten reps on my last 5 week so I made a point of doing ten on my 1 week(with a rep or two in the tank of course). I’m focusing on getting stronger each training session rather than testing as so many do.
You may be correct and in my initial cycles the weight was too light but now on my joker sets, when I chose to do them, I’m speed lifting for reps weight that would have been a grinder previously. I’ve a lot of years left to lift and compete and im not fucking about with bullshit 1rm - 3rm training sessions that lead to no where.
I am about to start my 8th cycle after tomorrow’s USAPL comp, and I have yet to reset. I also thought I started too high because I have never hit more than +2 on any cycle, yet I have gotten at least 1 more than the required reps at every workout. Some would say I should have reset, but it is working, so why stop. In the process my 2 rep max on bench has gone from 295 in late august to 320 last saturday. And my 5 week next week will be 295, and I will hit the required reps. But once I do a cycle where I don’t get extra reps all three weeks, I will reset 10-15 lbs. But some progress differently, so YMMV.
@Ecch, it’s what happens after that initial reset rather than the first cycle. If you just grind out the reps then when you reset you’ll still be close to your current limit and you will shortly stall again. Going back 3 steps gives you a nice running start at the stalled weight. Going back 3 steps before you hit a stall gives you an even longer running start.
[quote]tsantos wrote: @Ecch, it’s what happens after that initial reset rather than the first cycle. If you just grind out the reps then when you reset you’ll still be close to your current limit and you will shortly stall again. Going back 3 steps gives you a nice running start at the stalled weight. Going back 3 steps before you hit a stall gives you an even longer running start.[/quote]
I understand that, but if in week 1 I hit 6, 4 at 2 in my three weeks, then in week 7 I hit 6, 4 at 2 with 30 additional pounds at each set, then I have clearly gotten stronger.
I don’t think you need to hit any certain number on each week’s PR set. It does help to start too light though and try to hit 8-10 on your first cycle (5’s week), but if you think you keep having to hit 10 on each cycle during 5’s week thereafter you’re gonna be resetting a lot I would think. As the weight goes up, the rep number on the PR set will eventually go down. Then again, I only own 2nd edition, so not sure if Beyond says anything different.
Regardless of how complicated people seem to think this is, it’s really just up to your preference. 5, 3, and 1 are considered the “minimum required” reps each week… as long as you’re hitting those numbers, you’re following the program properly. You don’t have to do jokers-- they are not a required part of the program. When your TM is high, you won’t be able to do much joker sets because your percentages are already heavy weight. This is fine, and if you would like to increase your TM for another cycle or two, it’s ok.
With that said, I think you’re taking the TM too literally, it’s not an indication of your strength. Increasing it further doesn’t automatically mean you are stronger or that you’ll get better results. Because you had to ask and can not/will not make your own decision, I think it would be wise if you just follow the Jim-recommended and proven plan of completing 5 cycles, then reducing your TM by 3 cycles.
[quote]tsantos wrote: @Ecch, it’s what happens after that initial reset rather than the first cycle. If you just grind out the reps then when you reset you’ll still be close to your current limit and you will shortly stall again. Going back 3 steps gives you a nice running start at the stalled weight. Going back 3 steps before you hit a stall gives you an even longer running start.[/quote]
I understand that, but if in week 1 I hit 6, 4 at 2 in my three weeks, then in week 7 I hit 6, 4 at 2 with 30 additional pounds at each set, then I have clearly gotten stronger. [/quote]
So you’re kicking ass. Good. When / if you aren’t kicking as much ass, remember the 5 steps forward, 3 back thing. This has worked for many, many people. we are not snowflakes…
I get all the 10-8-5 stuff but if it is for a pr/ max reps/ whatever how can you even pre-determine those numbers? The deal I have with myself is that I MUST break my own record at least once per cycle. That theoretically means I will do something I have never done before once per month - and that means I will get close, real close, to failure.
That number often does not land on 10-8 or 5. These decisions are often made with the bar on my back or in my hands - i.e. that little voice that says “you are done my friend.” What I do is at the end of every cycle I extract the best lift for each lift for that month and write it at the top of the next month in the monthly calendar I keep. Using W’s formula then, I calculate what I need.
Whatever day of the 3 I am feeling good - I go for it. Often I break records on 2 days of the cycle and some 3, but I always get 1.
Furthermore,
I use “Advanced” for both presses and that doesn’t require extra reps at all. So just because you only get 8 on the 5’s day doesn’t automatically mean reset.
And, know what the book says about doing Jokers after the pr set - but I have had great results doing Jokers and then coming back to the pr and fsl set.
One more thing - there are programs in “Beyond” that use multiple sets for the last set of the day. If you can only get 5 on your 70,80,90 day, do 5 sets of 3 instead.
Or I guess you could just reset