Struggling to Correctly Implement Layers

Training
1

CT:

I’m hoping you can help me out! I’ve been researching your programs for a while now and have tried multiple times to implement them myself. I’m currently trying to understand your layering system, and my goal is strength while cutting fat. Right now I am implementing layers for: Front squat, Bench, and deadlift. Can’t do push press or OHP until my tendonitis calms down (says my PT).

Throughout the week I am also dedicating a day for Back (using SGHP as an activation lift) and two days for shoulders. . . I have a feeling you will think that’s pointless, but ever since I had to stop OHP my shoulders shrunk a bit, and the modified dumbbell presses along with lateral raises and rotator cuff/rear delt work have been helping (in my mind). On each shoulder day I’ll add either biceps or triceps, to make up for not doing arms much.

This is my current split–weighted carries are placed at the end of some workouts.

Day 1: Back (w/ SGHP) – Farmer’s Walks
Day 2: Front Squat Layers
Day 3: Shoulders, (Biceps) – Goblet Carry

Day 4: OFF

Day 5: Dead Lift Layers – Suitcase Carry
Day 6: Bench Layers – Goblet Carry

Day 7: OFF

Day 8:Front Squat Layers
Day 9: Shoulders, (Triceps) – Overhead Carry

Day 10: OFF
Day 11: OFF

I can provide detail of what each workout looks like if needed, but I’ll show you my Bench day right now 'cause it’s what I am most confused about.

Bench Press
Ramp to 1 RM (as of 2.18.14–235 lbs)

Double Pause Bench Press
3 reps; 3 sets

Floor Press - Explosive
3-5 reps; 4-5 sets (@ 50%-60% of Bench 1RM)

Bench Press Pump Reps
8-10 reps; 3 sets

I’m still learning. . . have been lifting since I was 15 but didn’t get smart about it until a couple years ago. I know I’m not impressive by any means, but I’ve come a long way. Any advice would be great; I really need it.

This thread is what I’ve designed my routine around:
http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding_thibaudeau/quadruple_strength_layers?id=5780879&pageNo=0

EDIT: I have edited my original post to make my split clearer to those reading: each day has been numbered.

2

Can anybody shed some insight?

3

[quote]MikeMezz wrote:
Can anybody shed some insight?[/quote]

Not exactly sure what your questions are…but I will chime in.

First, it is my understanding that you should only do one layer per session (ie bench one day, deadlift the next, etc…), not combine two. If you do them properly, one is all you should be able to handle any way. I have been having good results with ramp to 1RM, clusters at 90%, and hard fives. I alternate every few weeks to ramp to 1 or 2 RM, then density work (heavy singles or triples) at 24-28 reps. Do a carry at the end or some light assistance work and done for the day.

The biggest problem I see with your program is trying to combine layers in a single session…you will not be able to exert proper effort in the second layer and robbing yourself of results. 2 cents

4

I was mainly wondering if anybody could critique my layout, but I never specified looking back. My apologies. While you bring it up, I think that’s where I am most confused–another member pointed out that I am combining programs (and you suggest I am combining layers), but I can’t see where I am doing that. For instance, whenever I perform a “layered” workout, that is all I am doing on that day. So, Bench, Front Squat, and the Deadlift are the only lifts I am attempting to layer.

When I do shoulders, arms and back these are not layered workouts from my understanding. Today I did front squats–ramped to 1RM; 3 sets of paused; 4 sets of Jump squats; and then 2 pump sets. That is all I’d have energy for. I’d like to figure this out, though I’m not entirely sure what you mean by combining layers :confused:

5

As Grove said…When doing the layers it is one lift per session. So if you are going to do say slight decline bench press then that is all you do. Now you can throw in an accessory lift for maybe 3-4 sets but that is all. But there are so many new layer applications that it really depends on what you are doing with the layers. Simply saying Bench Press Layers could mean so many things. The original layers was ramp, clusters, and density using that one main movement.

For instance, when I was doing SGHP I would ramp, do 3 sets of clusters, do 3 sets of density, and then do an accessory lift such as 3-4 sets of 6-8 reps of deadstart rows, and thats it for that session. But then you have Waves/Ladders, Heavy Singles, and many many other options. Simply put, using the layers philosophy or training style is really choosing one lift a session. Go read some of the guys’s Indigo 3G logs (dave-g) in particular who has been implementing CT’s training for a long time and seeing great results.

6

Also, just looking at your sample above, I would not do bench press layers, and then switch to floor press and then back to pump sets with the bench press.

7

[quote]MikeMezz wrote:
I was mainly wondering if anybody could critique my layout, but I never specified looking back. My apologies. While you bring it up, I think that’s where I am most confused–another member pointed out that I am combining programs (and you suggest I am combining layers), but I can’t see where I am doing that. For instance, whenever I perform a “layered” workout, that is all I am doing on that day. So, Bench, Front Squat, and the Deadlift are the only lifts I am attempting to layer.

When I do shoulders, arms and back these are not layered workouts from my understanding. Today I did front squats–ramped to 1RM; 3 sets of paused; 4 sets of Jump squats; and then 2 pump sets. That is all I’d have energy for. I’d like to figure this out, though I’m not entirely sure what you mean by combining layers :/[/quote]

Maybe its the way you wrote the routine that is confusing. You wrote:

OFF

Dead Lift Layers – Suitcase Carry
Bench Layers – Goblet Carry

OFF

That reads a deadlift layer and a bench layer in the same session…combining layers. Maybe that is not what you meant but is how I interpreted it.

8

oh, alright then. My mistake; I should have numbered the days. Each new installment is it’s own day, sorry about that.

Concerning combining the floor press and bench press. . . I was looking at CT’s quad. strength layer system, and he has deadlifting layers consists of: 1. ramp; 2. double pause; 3. clean pull; pump reps. This is why I thought doing more than one movement (as long as that movement has some purpose) was okay in some instances. CT has his reasons, I’m sure, but I’m not following why a floor press can’t be used as a dynamic, supplemental lift to the Bench press. I really want to learn, and I hope I’m not nit-picking or being a pest :confused:

9

[quote]MikeMezz wrote:
oh, alright then. My mistake; I should have numbered the days. Each new installment is it’s own day, sorry about that.

Concerning combining the floor press and bench press. . . I was looking at CT’s quad. strength layer system, and he has deadlifting layers consists of: 1. ramp; 2. double pause; 3. clean pull; pump reps. This is why I thought doing more than one movement (as long as that movement has some purpose) was okay in some instances. CT has his reasons, I’m sure, but I’m not following why a floor press can’t be used as a dynamic, supplemental lift to the Bench press. I really want to learn, and I hope I’m not nit-picking or being a pest :/[/quote]

Not speaking for JTbrown, but he’s not saying you CANT do it, just that he would not and…I would not either. You are doing a bench layer, a floor press, then back to bench. I view supplemental or assistance lifts (after the main layer) to address a weakness or some area I need to improve upon. You just hammered the bench in the layer…seems like overkill when there are so many other options. Do some light OHP, dips, pullups, rows, even dumbbell bench just to make the movement different.

I did slight decline bench layer last night, added some reverse bands at the top of 1RM to extend the ramp, 20 singles at 90% for density and done with bench. Then 3x12 of OHP at 50% (insane pump in shoulders), and a few dips. Done. The supplemental work at the end is stuff that still helps bench, but works other weak points as well. But hey if it works for you that’s all that matters. 2 cents…good luck.

10

See, now for some reason I thought that the floor press was part of the “layer.” I still don’t think I am understanding what layers are just yet. Take a look at my front squat routine:

“front squats–ramped to 1RM; 3 sets of paused; 4 sets of Jump squats; and then 2 pump sets.”

To me, all four movements constitute a front squat “layer.” Have I misunderstood this whole concept?

I actually really like your supplemental bench work. I might switch to doing something like that. For now, however, what if I ditched the pump sets and used the floor press as the supplemental work and call it a day? So, it would look like:

-ramping to 1RM
-density work (I haven’t been doing this as of yet, but I really like the sound of it)
-floor press (explosive reps)

Let me know if this would be too much. Also, when you do the 20 singles, are you staying under the bar the entire time, or are you doing ten, taking a break, and then do the last ten?

11

[quote]MikeMezz wrote:
See, now for some reason I thought that the floor press was part of the “layer.” I still don’t think I am understanding what layers are just yet. Take a look at my front squat routine:

“front squats–ramped to 1RM; 3 sets of paused; 4 sets of Jump squats; and then 2 pump sets.”

To me, all four movements constitute a front squat “layer.” Have I misunderstood this whole concept?

I actually really like your supplemental bench work. I might switch to doing something like that. For now, however, what if I ditched the pump sets and used the floor press as the supplemental work and call it a day? So, it would look like:

-ramping to 1RM
-density work (I haven’t been doing this as of yet, but I really like the sound of it)
-floor press (explosive reps)

Let me know if this would be too much. Also, when you do the 20 singles, are you staying under the bar the entire time, or are you doing ten, taking a break, and then do the last ten?
[/quote]

Not to speak for CT…but here is my understanding of layers:

  • A layer is one movement / lift (ie: bench, pushpress, trap-bar deads, SGHP, etc…). You do not mix lifts within the layer. Floor press is different than bench. Do not mix inside of layer.
  • The name of the program refers to different layers of intensity
  • Ramp to 1, 2, or 3 rep max - this primes the CNS for the density and volume layers
  • Density - could be heavy singles (at 80-92% of ramp max of day), cluster sets, etc…Heavy singles are performed with a rep number or time, to beat. Perform one single, rack, wait 10-20 secs, perform another single, rack, repeat. Try to get X number as fast as possible, or set a timer and get as many reps as possible. Clusters are similar except you do as many singles in a set with less rest time, over 3 sets. Between 3-7 reps (less than 3 remove weight, more than 7 add weight)
    Volume - Heavy 5’s (take 75-82% of ramp max, perform 5 reps / rest 30-45 secs, another 5, rest, another 5 done), extended sets (same percentage, rep amap, rack, rest 15 secs, rep amap…that is one set. Do 3), countdown sets (called something else but cant remember and have never done them).

I don’t do pump sets - I just add an assistance lift to finish up. Like I said earlier i’m trying to build my bench so doing assistance to build that. I love overhead work so OHP at end of bench layer, and I do a paused slight incline CG bench at end of push press layer. Light weight, trying to increase a little each week.

Just remember, ramp - density - volume / all same lift. A little assistance or a weighted carry and done. Good luck…and sorry for rambling.

12

No, the more information the better. That was very helpful. I’m going to tweak my layering workouts more around this from now on (ramping, density, volume). I applied this concept to my bench today, but I didn’t do any volume work.

I ramped to 1RM, then did cluster sets @ 90% of ramp. Did 3 sets with 3 reps each–my body just isn’t used to that kind of work, I guess. At least I know I’m going to be improving from here on out. It was tough, though. I don’t imagine I’ll be able to add volume work unless it’s a deadlift layer, at least for now. After the Cluster sets for Bench today, I added 3 sets of explosive bench using dumbbells equaling out to 60% of the ramp. I considered that my assistance, then did 3 minutes of Carries and called it a day.

Proceeding from here on out, would I eventually want to add in the volume layer? I’m currently not using any of the awesome Biotest supps, though I’ll be wanted to purchase SWF as soon as I can.

13

[quote]Grove wrote:

[quote]MikeMezz wrote:
See, now for some reason I thought that the floor press was part of the “layer.” I still don’t think I am understanding what layers are just yet. Take a look at my front squat routine:

“front squats–ramped to 1RM; 3 sets of paused; 4 sets of Jump squats; and then 2 pump sets.”

To me, all four movements constitute a front squat “layer.” Have I misunderstood this whole concept?

I actually really like your supplemental bench work. I might switch to doing something like that. For now, however, what if I ditched the pump sets and used the floor press as the supplemental work and call it a day? So, it would look like:

-ramping to 1RM
-density work (I haven’t been doing this as of yet, but I really like the sound of it)
-floor press (explosive reps)

Let me know if this would be too much. Also, when you do the 20 singles, are you staying under the bar the entire time, or are you doing ten, taking a break, and then do the last ten?
[/quote]

Not to speak for CT…but here is my understanding of layers:

  • A layer is one movement / lift (ie: bench, pushpress, trap-bar deads, SGHP, etc…). You do not mix lifts within the layer. Floor press is different than bench. Do not mix inside of layer.
  • The name of the program refers to different layers of intensity
  • Ramp to 1, 2, or 3 rep max - this primes the CNS for the density and volume layers
  • Density - could be heavy singles (at 80-92% of ramp max of day), cluster sets, etc…Heavy singles are performed with a rep number or time, to beat. Perform one single, rack, wait 10-20 secs, perform another single, rack, repeat. Try to get X number as fast as possible, or set a timer and get as many reps as possible. Clusters are similar except you do as many singles in a set with less rest time, over 3 sets. Between 3-7 reps (less than 3 remove weight, more than 7 add weight)
    Volume - Heavy 5’s (take 75-82% of ramp max, perform 5 reps / rest 30-45 secs, another 5, rest, another 5 done), extended sets (same percentage, rep amap, rack, rest 15 secs, rep amap…that is one set. Do 3), countdown sets (called something else but cant remember and have never done them).

I don’t do pump sets - I just add an assistance lift to finish up. Like I said earlier i’m trying to build my bench so doing assistance to build that. I love overhead work so OHP at end of bench layer, and I do a paused slight incline CG bench at end of push press layer. Light weight, trying to increase a little each week.

Just remember, ramp - density - volume / all same lift. A little assistance or a weighted carry and done. Good luck…and sorry for rambling.[/quote]

very well said brotherman, alot of people inclduing myself will find this usefull

14

[quote]MikeMezz wrote:
I applied this concept to my bench today, but I didn’t do any volume work.

I ramped to 1RM, then did cluster sets @ 90% of ramp. Did 3 sets with 3 reps each–my body just isn’t used to that kind of work, I guess.

Proceeding from here on out, would I eventually want to add in the volume layer? I’m currently not using any of the awesome Biotest supps, though I’ll be wanted to purchase SWF as soon as I can.

[/quote]

Add the volume layer in now, and cut a set of the density until you can handle it. Or lower the density % a little so it doesn’t wipe you out until you get used to handling heavier weight, say down to 85% instead of 90%. But def do the volume - especially if you are after the pump, as you say.

One last thing, on the ramp - make sure you are doing singles the last half of the ramp to a training max. I think CT said start the ramp with a warm up, then about 50% (3 reps), a few more increases at 3reps, then singles up to the training max. I mentioned earlier i started adding reverse bands (upon the suggestion of others here) to extend the ramp and I’m setting rep PR’s every session. Thanks strengthdawg and Aragorn(?) for suggesting that a couple of months back

15

Grove-- You’ve been very helpful and I really appreciate your feedback and clarifications. This is exactly what I needed. I will add in the volume layer, as well as tweak what I am currently doing to reflect everything you’ve helped me out with. I’m just a bit concerned for now regarding my tendonitis–so may have to be a while before I can do volume for the bench (it’s the one movement that seems to aggravate it).

Also: regarding the ramp layer, starting at 50% and working up to 1RM includes many sets, I would imagine. I’ve read elsewhere that 7-9 sets are ideal. . . but does that matter?

EDIT: added in one more question concerning singles.

16

[quote]MikeMezz wrote:

Also: regarding the ramp layer, starting at 50% and working up to 1RM includes many sets, I would imagine. I’ve read elsewhere that 7-9 sets are ideal. . . but does that matter?

EDIT: added in one more question concerning singles. [/quote]

Yes, 7-9 sets ideal. Me: 135x6 185x3 225x3 250x2 270x1 285x1 300x1
Can stop there, or add some reverse bands for another set or 2. Now off to density work.

17

damn. . . 300 . . . I’ll get there, eventually!

18

Grove-- if you manage to find your way back to this thread, I was wondering what the difference might be between volume and “HDL,” or heavy density lifting. I guess the latter is a 5-4-3-2-1 rep scheme, whereas the heavy 5’s you described are 5-5-5 with rest in-between.

Is there a difference between the two, do you think?

19

[quote]MikeMezz wrote:
Grove-- if you manage to find your way back to this thread, I was wondering what the difference might be between volume and “HDL,” or heavy density lifting. I guess the latter is a 5-4-3-2-1 rep scheme, whereas the heavy 5’s you described are 5-5-5 with rest in-between.

Is there a difference between the two, do you think?[/quote]

That is what I called count down sets in an earlier post. There is also a 4-4-3-3-2-2-1-1 rep scheme that CT has mentioned for this layer. These are done at @ 70% of the ramp max, whereas the 5’s and extended sets are at 80%.

So, hard 5’s, extended sets, and the two above are all acceptable for the HDL layer (I said volume layer). I have done the extended sets and hard 5’s and like them both (I prefer the 5’s, and working final sets in the 80%). I have not done the 54321. Don’t think it really matters…try them and see which you prefer. Will probably depend on your work capacity between 70% and 80% for the final layer as to which will work for you now.

20

Thanks for the clarification, Grove. I tried the hard 5’s for my front squat layers, and it was pretty tough. In fact, I didn’t get over 3 reps per “set.” I think for now I’ll switch to the countdown sets and use 70% of my ramp until I get better at handling heavier weight. I’ll eventually work up to hard 5’s–or, at the very least, save them for my deadlift layers. I’m strongest in the deadlift, I’d say.