Stronger: Oly Lifter or PL, Revised

Training Powerlifting
21

[quote]johnnytang24 wrote:
I think I finally understand your original post. If a powerlifter and Olympic lifter both have a 500lbs deadlift and both trained specifically for the deadlift for 6 months, yes, most likely the Oly lifter will have a higher deadlift. The fact that the two have the same deadlift would probably mean the Oly lifter were significantly stronger overall.

This does not mean Oly lifting will get you a bigger deadlift than training to deadlift.[/quote]

This. And what Lordstorm88 said. A fairer comparison would be to take two people who are both rank beginners. That way their rate of improvement will be roughly similar. Get one to train Oly, the other to train for PL’ing. After a year, the guy who’s trained for PL’ing will have a higher deadlift, no doubt.

I also think your comparisons between soccer players and NFL combine results and world class sprinters are also off. A soccer player would get absolutely hammered in a 400m/800m race against a top-class runner of that distance. The same goes for an NFL guy against a sprinter. There is a big difference between a 40yard dash and 100m…

22

[quote]Wrah wrote:

[quote]TheJonty wrote:
Irrelevant question is irrelevant. Not only does Koing as a singular example mean little in the context of an o-lifting vs powerlifting discussion, he also can’t really answer the question because he now solely trains the snatch, clean and jerk, and front squat. And even though there may be an o-lifter who can outdeadlift a powerlifter at a comparable “level” (can somebody define that for me?) that is likely more the exception that proves the rule than anything else.[/quote]

If Koing doesn’t know how much he deadlifts, and probably don’t know what his fellow weightlifters deadlift, how can he know what world class weightlifters can or cannot deadlift?

I have couple of examplary deadlifts by weightlifters, I hope Koing has some figures of his own.

Koklyaev: 415 kg deadlift, 210 kg snatch.
Mendes: 350 kg deadlift for reps, ~175 kg snatch.
Edit: Henry: 425 kg deadlift (suited?), ~180 kg snatch.

I would like to have more data but that is all.

And I’m not saying these guys outpull powerlifters, I had trouble with this: “Absolute limit strength is not the OLifters forte. He will be f0cking strong to put 220-250kg over head but he won’t DL 400kg+”[/quote]

Well, absolute limit strength isn’t an olifters forte. Obviously, as you pointed out, there are outliers who can pull 400+ and snatch some good weights (although I wonder at what points in time Koklyaev hit that 210 snatch and 415 deadlift and how close together they were). And more data would always be nice; I’d like to know how much Chigishev, Salimi, Aramnau, Klokov, etc etc all deadlift (if they train it at all) but much of this is just speculation on our parts, or disjointed musings based on anecdotal evidence we’ve read online somewhere. All I can say for certain is that in my opinion, it is more important for an olympic lifter to be powerful than strong (ie a fast 250kg front squat is better than a slow 280kg one) and with that in mind they are perhaps not the best athletes to turn to in terms of excelling at a pure strength movement (the deadlift).

23

[quote]TheJonty wrote:
Well, absolute limit strength isn’t an olifters forte. Obviously, as you pointed out, there are outliers who can pull 400+ and snatch some good weights (although I wonder at what points in time Koklyaev hit that 210 snatch and 415 deadlift and how close together they were). And more data would always be nice; I’d like to know how much Chigishev, Salimi, Aramnau, Klokov, etc etc all deadlift (if they train it at all) but much of this is just speculation on our parts, or disjointed musings based on anecdotal evidence we’ve read online somewhere. All I can say for certain is that in my opinion, it is more important for an olympic lifter to be powerful than strong (ie a fast 250kg front squat is better than a slow 280kg one) and with that in mind they are perhaps not the best athletes to turn to in terms of excelling at a pure strength movement (the deadlift).[/quote]

Prove that those 3 parameters are outliers.

Fast 250 and slow 280 front squat sounds like the same thing, where the max is somewhere around 280.

24

[quote]Wrah wrote:
Prove that those 3 parameters are outliers.
[/quote]

I can’t, just like you can’t prove that they’re not. That’s the whole “wish we had more data” thing you touched on.

[quote]Wrah wrote:
Fast 250 and slow 280 front squat sounds like the same thing, where the max is somewhere around 280.[/quote]

Not for everyone, and I suppose I worded that poorly. I guess I’d say I’d rather have an athlete capable of lifting near-max weights very quickly, rather than an athlete who had a higher max but generally lifted slower. At least as far as olympic lifting is concerned. If that makes any sense. I’m kinda tired.

25

[quote]Wrah wrote:

[quote]Koing wrote:

[quote]bro1989 wrote:
I didn’t read the thread you mentioned, but this was once actually tested and the olympic lifters were stronger in the deadlift than the powerlifters. It was then concluded that it’s best not to train the deadlift as the lower back recovers poorly and that it’s better to train for speed with submaxial weights.[/quote]

What level were the lifters?

NO OLifter will have a stronger DL than a Powerlifter then at comparable levels man.

Lets get real here.

Absolute limit strength is not the OLifters forte. He will be f0cking strong to put 220-250kg over head but he won’t DL 400kg+

Koing[/quote]

How much do you snatch and deadlift?
[/quote]

Sn: 127.5
Dl: 200

First, everyone knows I’m a big fan of Oly. I’ve probably competed in at least 50 competitions in the last 12yrs.

Those guys you named are VERY Powerful and strong. That is not under question.

BUT what are WR/ top 3 PL guys pulling at comparable weight classes? I’m going to bet it’s MORE thent he 3 OLifters you have mentioned. I can’t pluck figures for you etc as I don’t follow PL but some dudes pulled 1000lbs+ and I haven’t heard of an Oly guy pulling 1000lbs+.

This is not that hard to understand, that a person specialising in the lift will be better at it then some other guy that does not spend as much time training it.

Koing

26

[quote]Koing wrote:

BUT what are WR/ top 3 PL guys pulling at comparable weight classes? I’m going to bet it’s MORE thent he 3 OLifters you have mentioned. I can’t pluck figures for you etc as I don’t follow PL but some dudes pulled 1000lbs+ and I haven’t heard of an Oly guy pulling 1000lbs+.

This is not that hard to understand, that a person specialising in the lift will be better at it then some other guy that does not spend as much time training it.

Koing[/quote]

Mark Henry pulled 903 before he became an Oly lifter and I’d wager Kolkyaev deadlifts now that he does mostly strongman.

Notable lifts:

Magnusson: 1014lbs
Bolton: 1008lbs
Konstantinov: 948@275
Coan: 901@220
Gant: 688@132

This is no knock against O-lifters, but I don’t know of any who are even rumored to have pulled anywhere near those numbers.

27

[quote]TheJonty wrote:

[quote]Wrah wrote:
Prove that those 3 parameters are outliers.
[/quote]

I can’t, just like you can’t prove that they’re not. That’s the whole “wish we had more data” thing you touched on.

[/quote]

Come on. YOU are making the claim.

28

[quote]Koing wrote:
Sn: 127.5
Dl: 200

First, everyone knows I’m a big fan of Oly. I’ve probably competed in at least 50 competitions in the last 12yrs.

Those guys you named are VERY Powerful and strong. That is not under question.

BUT what are WR/ top 3 PL guys pulling at comparable weight classes? I’m going to bet it’s MORE thent he 3 OLifters you have mentioned. I can’t pluck figures for you etc as I don’t follow PL but some dudes pulled 1000lbs+ and I haven’t heard of an Oly guy pulling 1000lbs+.

This is not that hard to understand, that a person specialising in the lift will be better at it then some other guy that does not spend as much time training it.

Koing[/quote]

Ok ok. :wink: You are very good with the snatch.

29

[quote]Guillefras wrote:

[quote]johnnytang24 wrote:
I think I finally understand your original post. If a powerlifter and Olympic lifter both have a 500lbs deadlift and both trained specifically for the deadlift for 6 months, yes, most likely the Oly lifter will have a higher deadlift. The fact that the two have the same deadlift would probably mean the Oly lifter were significantly stronger overall.

This does not mean Oly lifting will get you a bigger deadlift than training to deadlift.[/quote]

This. And what Lordstorm88 said. A fairer comparison would be to take two people who are both rank beginners. That way their rate of improvement will be roughly similar. Get one to train Oly, the other to train for PL’ing. After a year, the guy who’s trained for PL’ing will have a higher deadlift, no doubt.

I also think your comparisons between soccer players and NFL combine results and world class sprinters are also off. A soccer player would get absolutely hammered in a 400m/800m race against a top-class runner of that distance. The same goes for an NFL guy against a sprinter. There is a big difference between a 40yard dash and 100m…[/quote]

I see where you are coming from the nfl point, but as I stated I really dont know alot about the exact training only from what I have seen on youtube of the combine and that, we dont really have alot of NFL in the uk. But with regards to the soccer, I slight disagree, not saying that wouldn’t be beat by an athelete hands dwn, but I remeber reading and article on the brazilian football team, and some of them lad’s can sprint 100m-400m in a fairly good time. You might say why aint they athelets then, but I dont know bout the usa, but generally are footballs players get paid, a fucking bucket load, where are athelets on ther other hand dont get a quater of that.

30

[quote]Wrah wrote:

[quote]TheJonty wrote:

[quote]Wrah wrote:
Prove that those 3 parameters are outliers.
[/quote]

I can’t, just like you can’t prove that they’re not. That’s the whole “wish we had more data” thing you touched on.

[/quote]

Come on. YOU are making the claim.[/quote]

Yeah, I made that claim, and I thought I kinda sorta tried to explain why I couldn’t back it up with proof (which at the same time explains why you can’t prove it wrong). We just don’t have enough data insofar as what the top guys are lifting in training, especially in lifts other than the snatch/clean and jerk. Besides, this is just one random forumgoer’s opinion based on lots of internet perusal, don’t get your panties up in a bunch over it.

31

[quote]taylor_1989 wrote:

[quote]Guillefras wrote:

[quote]johnnytang24 wrote:
I think I finally understand your original post. If a powerlifter and Olympic lifter both have a 500lbs deadlift and both trained specifically for the deadlift for 6 months, yes, most likely the Oly lifter will have a higher deadlift. The fact that the two have the same deadlift would probably mean the Oly lifter were significantly stronger overall.

This does not mean Oly lifting will get you a bigger deadlift than training to deadlift.[/quote]

This. And what Lordstorm88 said. A fairer comparison would be to take two people who are both rank beginners. That way their rate of improvement will be roughly similar. Get one to train Oly, the other to train for PL’ing. After a year, the guy who’s trained for PL’ing will have a higher deadlift, no doubt.

I also think your comparisons between soccer players and NFL combine results and world class sprinters are also off. A soccer player would get absolutely hammered in a 400m/800m race against a top-class runner of that distance. The same goes for an NFL guy against a sprinter. There is a big difference between a 40yard dash and 100m…[/quote]

I see where you are coming from the nfl point, but as I stated I really dont know alot about the exact training only from what I have seen on youtube of the combine and that, we dont really have alot of NFL in the uk. But with regards to the soccer, I slight disagree, not saying that wouldn’t be beat by an athelete hands dwn, but I remeber reading and article on the brazilian football team, and some of them lad’s can sprint 100m-400m in a fairly good time. You might say why aint they athelets then, but I dont know bout the usa, but generally are footballs players get paid, a fucking bucket load, where are athelets on ther other hand dont get a quater of that. [/quote]

With what you just said above, you do agree with me…I was responding to one of your earlier posts where you said a “soccer player wouldn’t stand a chance in a 100m but maybe they would in a 400m or 800m?” and I’m just saying they wouldn’t stand a chance. Running a “fairly good time” is a long way away from running a competitive time. The same goes with oly lifters and their deadlifts.

32

This is basically a null point…it’s kinda like asking if an football player would be better at Rugby than a Rugby player. Yes the 2 sports are similar in what they require for the athletic component but the technical skills required are different.

In my opinion I’d say that the strength an Olifter builds is easier to transfer to other things, but you’re certainly not gonna see Olifters on top of powerlifting podiums. Plus it’s kind of an insult to say that an Olifter could just walk in and crush a powerlifting comp and vice versa.

33

wow i really liked this topic. i have been a competition olympic weightlifter for almost 30 years. i compete in the 70k weightclass. i agree with both sides of the argument. power lifters train for this lift, however olympic lifters use this lift as a supplemental lift and also pound for pound olympic weightlifters are with out a doubt the strongest people in the world. it help them for strength in the starting phases of the C&J.so it comes down to what you train for, if you took a weight class say for instance 70k a power lifter would win. if you have any question on olympic training techniques please ask. i have alot of exp in this style of training. thanks for the post

34

[quote]Guillefras wrote:

[quote]taylor_1989 wrote:

[quote]Guillefras wrote:

[quote]johnnytang24 wrote:
I think I finally understand your original post. If a powerlifter and Olympic lifter both have a 500lbs deadlift and both trained specifically for the deadlift for 6 months, yes, most likely the Oly lifter will have a higher deadlift. The fact that the two have the same deadlift would probably mean the Oly lifter were significantly stronger overall.

This does not mean Oly lifting will get you a bigger deadlift than training to deadlift.[/quote]

This. And what Lordstorm88 said. A fairer comparison would be to take two people who are both rank beginners. That way their rate of improvement will be roughly similar. Get one to train Oly, the other to train for PL’ing. After a year, the guy who’s trained for PL’ing will have a higher deadlift, no doubt.

I also think your comparisons between soccer players and NFL combine results and world class sprinters are also off. A soccer player would get absolutely hammered in a 400m/800m race against a top-class runner of that distance. The same goes for an NFL guy against a sprinter. There is a big difference between a 40yard dash and 100m…[/quote]

I see where you are coming from the nfl point, but as I stated I really dont know alot about the exact training only from what I have seen on youtube of the combine and that, we dont really have alot of NFL in the uk. But with regards to the soccer, I slight disagree, not saying that wouldn’t be beat by an athelete hands dwn, but I remeber reading and article on the brazilian football team, and some of them lad’s can sprint 100m-400m in a fairly good time. You might say why aint they athelets then, but I dont know bout the usa, but generally are footballs players get paid, a fucking bucket load, where are athelets on ther other hand dont get a quater of that. [/quote]

With what you just said above, you do agree with me…I was responding to one of your earlier posts where you said a “soccer player wouldn’t stand a chance in a 100m but maybe they would in a 400m or 800m?” and I’m just saying they wouldn’t stand a chance. Running a “fairly good time” is a long way away from running a competitive time. The same goes with oly lifters and their deadlifts.
[/quote]

Oh yeah I do agree, but what I was getting at and I think people are miss reading what I have been saying is that NO! and oly cant just walk into a power lifting comp and win, same with the soccer player vs athelet comparison. What I am trying to get at if the soccer player where to train like an athelet and still use certain componets of their training for a certain time period, due to the speed that they can run already, the soccer player would be able to stand a chance against the athelet; same gose with the oly vs power lift. If the oly lifter main object was to increase their deadlift for a powerlifting comp, but still incorporate the oly lifts as well, that the oly lifter would stand some chance with in the comp. But the thing is I dont think the power lifter would get the same effect if were to compete in oly lift comp, due to them having to master the liftes first. Also know one has answerd my question about: why when you pass a certain strength level you can not make the body accelerate any more the rate of accleration decreases?

35

[quote]taylor_1989 wrote:
Oh yeah I do agree, but what I was getting at and I think people are miss reading what I have been saying is that NO! and oly cant just walk into a power lifting comp and win, same with the soccer player vs athelet comparison. What I am trying to get at if the soccer player where to train like an athelet and still use certain componets of their training for a certain time period, due to the speed that they can run already, the soccer player would be able to stand a chance against the athelet; same gose with the oly vs power lift. If the oly lifter main object was to increase their deadlift for a powerlifting comp, but still incorporate the oly lifts as well, that the oly lifter would stand some chance with in the comp. But the thing is I dont think the power lifter would get the same effect if were to compete in oly lift comp, due to them having to master the liftes first. Also know one has answerd my question about: why when you pass a certain strength level you can not make the body accelerate any more the rate of accleration decreases?
[/quote]

You may get the odd 1 out of 10000 Football players that could qualify for the British Champs in athletics. That person would get crushed by 100m sprinters.

The main thing is, sprinters train 1000’s of hrs to sprint. The Football guy has to train for his sport.

The answer is no, a person moving to one area would do well in exceptional cases but they would still get beaten by the real pros at their sport.

We had Jason Gardiner, ex British 100m sprinter, he went on to do a bobsleigh thing for tv. His push times were good. He cracks 60m in a really fast time and his a good 100m sprint time. He did very well but ultimately he did not beat out the 1000 of hrs that bobsleigh guy do.

Also know one has answerd my question about: why when you pass a certain strength level you can not make the body accelerate any more the rate of accleration decreases?

There are limits to how fast you can move. You hit limits of speed faster then strength in a huge way. As to why? F0ck knows. Someone else can get you a scientific explanation of why.

Koing

36

I just wanted to say that the deadlifting I’ve seen weightlifters do is very different from the pulling powerlifters do.

Powerlifting conventional stance pulls are a very different form and technique from weightlifting pulls.

They really aren’t even the same lifts.

37

Oleg Perepetchenov’s first PL comp - 320kg squat, 190kg bench, 290kg dead @ 96kg.

38

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
I just wanted to say that the deadlifting I’ve seen weightlifters do is very different from the pulling powerlifters do.

Powerlifting conventional stance pulls are a very different form and technique from weightlifting pulls.

They really aren’t even the same lifts.

[/quote]

They really arent. To an untrained eye, there doesn’t seem to be much difference, but to anyone who has attempted to learn both, the differences are clear. In deadlift, the weight it squeezed of the ground, speed is not important. In a clean style deadlift, the aim is for the bar to rapidly increase in speed as it gets higher. These 2 objective clearly require a different approaches/techniques.

People saying ‘this oly lifer deadlifted or benched this or that massive weight’ are pretty much just saying one thing: olympic lifters are strong. No shit.

The strong man is strong, and likewise the stupid thread is stupid

39

[quote]yarni wrote:

People saying ‘this oly lifer deadlifted or benched this or that massive weight’ are pretty much just saying one thing: olympic lifters are strong. No shit.

The strong man is strong, and likewise the stupid thread is stupid

[/quote]

hahaha

40

[quote]ninearms wrote:
Oleg Perepetchenov’s first PL comp - 320kg squat, 190kg bench, 290kg dead @ 96kg.

Дебют О.Перепеченова в пауэрлифтинге - YouTube [/quote]

Holy shit, has he ever put on weight.