no one wants to counter-argument or talk to you anymore. in fact, there is nothing to counter.
Wrah, I’m going back to page two to reply to the last post of yours that actually had what some would call substance.
[quote]Wrah wrote:
No-one has challenged me yet.[/quote]
If your definition of “challenge” is something other than everyone else telling you you’re wrong, then I guess so.
[quote]Wrah wrote:
Atleast I try to back up my claims with examples, I have never see the explosiveness whack jobs doing the same, maybe because they can’t. [/quote]
The thing is, examples don’t do you too much good when the discussion is in terms as broad as “powerlifters” vs “weightlifters.” And the explosiveness “whack jobs” (I resent that, by the way) perhaps don’t back up their claims with examples because it seems everybody but you thinks it’s pretty obvious the olympic lifts are explosive, fast movements. In fact, here, I’ll humour you. Watch this (Aramnau in Beijing).
Looks pretty explosive and fast to me. What do you think?
[quote]Wrah wrote:
I picked Pat’s competition lifts because competition matters you know. No straps and all of that stuff. Three attempts.[/quote]
You picked Pat’s competition lifts to compare to his training deadlift. When his competition lifts were 30-some odd kilos off his best training youtube lifts, that’s a shitty comparison, and that’s shitty logic, and that should be relatively obvious. Why would you compare competition lifts he does without straps to a training deadlift he does with straps?
[quote]Wrah wrote:
Please tell me the top barbell speed and average acceleration in the snatch and please tell me how that is in the area of explosive strength like for example javelin throw is. [/quote]
The top barbell speed is 13.734526 m/s and the average acceleration is 29.82093 m/s^2
I couldn’t tell you if that’s in the same ballpark as the javelin throw because the javelin throw is largely irrelevant in a discussion concerning powerlifting and olympic weightlifting. Nice try though.
[quote]Wrah:
And please tell me why the biggest deadlifters win in the strongman event where the athletes throw 20-25 kg over the wall and why should this change when the load is increased 8 fold.[/quote]
Prove this statement. I want to see where you got the fact that the strongest deadlifters are the best at throwing 20-25kg over a wall. I’d also probably enjoy picking holes in that argument as well, but I’ll wait til you get back to me on this.
IN CLOSING
I will specifically address your point that weightlifters are more strong than explosive in a relatively in-depth manner I hope will make sense (and hopefully I don’t screw up any of the terminology).
We can all agree that in order to lift the greatest amount of weight in the snatch and the clean, the athlete must recieve the bar in a relatively full squat, yes? Now, for this to be possible, the barbell needs to have sufficient upward momentum at the end of the second pull to allow it to continue moving upwards and/or remain relatively static while the lifter pulls him(her)self/drops under the bar. Since momentum is a function of velocity and mass, and the mass of the barbell for any particular attempt will of course not be changing, then we can say that for the athlete to give him(her)self the greatest chance of completing the lift they want to maximize the upward velocity of the bar at the end of the second pull to give the barbell the greatest momentum possible, and thus giving them more time to get under the bar. To achieve this velocity the barbell is accelerated violently through the second pull; this judicious application of incredible force in a very short time frame is what is commonly referred to as the application of explosive power.
And I have now rambled on far too long about all of this. Good night.
You joke about the barbell speed and acceleration because it would prove my point.
Silly thread is silly
As much as I hate cliched phrases I feel this one is relevant “The plural of anecdote is not evidence.”
[quote]Wrah wrote:
You joke about the barbell speed and acceleration because it would prove my point.[/quote]
I joke about the barbell speed and acceleration because I felt your query didn’t hold any water. I fail to see the relevance of an athlete throwing a javelin (which weighs 800 grams) in a discussion about the explosiveness of the olympic lifts (when athletes are lifting in excess of 200 kilograms). I’m also too lazy to try to find those numbers, because I don’t know of anyone else, anywhere, who cares about them, and thus have no idea where one would go about finding them.
Thanks for reading and responding to my whole post though.
[quote]MAsteve wrote:
Silly thread is silly [/quote]
Indeed it is, and I know I’m not really helping, but I’m having a hard time stopping myself.
tempting isn’t it.
aw. it is too small to read properly 
I slogged through 3 pages of this, and I’m surprised a bigger deal hasn’t been made about form.
The bar path for Olympic lifting is different from that of a deadlift. The pull from the floor that is optimal for a clean is completely different from that for a maximal weight deadlift.
I’ve noticed, when I train with a focus on olympic lifting, my ability to do conventional deadlifts actually decreases a bit. Similarly, when I’ve trained to focus on deadlifting, it ruins my ability to set up my pull for cleans.
Specificity breeds excellence. If I want to get better at deadlifting, I’m going to work only on picking up the barbell. That’s a completely different skill from being able to pick up a barbell and catching it at the chest.
[quote]TheJonty wrote:
[quote]Wrah wrote:
You joke about the barbell speed and acceleration because it would prove my point.[/quote]
I joke about the barbell speed and acceleration because I felt your query didn’t hold any water. I fail to see the relevance of an athlete throwing a javelin (which weighs 800 grams) in a discussion about the explosiveness of the olympic lifts (when athletes are lifting in excess of 200 kilograms). I’m also too lazy to try to find those numbers, because I don’t know of anyone else, anywhere, who cares about them, and thus have no idea where one would go about finding them.
Thanks for reading and responding to my whole post though.[/quote]
You are yet another person who likes to characterize the lifts while not knowing their basic attributes. Yeah, don’t care. But then keep your mouth shut if you don’t care kid.
[quote]XiaoNio wrote:
I slogged through 3 pages of this, and I’m surprised a bigger deal hasn’t been made about form.
The bar path for Olympic lifting is different from that of a deadlift. The pull from the floor that is optimal for a clean is completely different from that for a maximal weight deadlift.
I’ve noticed, when I train with a focus on olympic lifting, my ability to do conventional deadlifts actually decreases a bit. Similarly, when I’ve trained to focus on deadlifting, it ruins my ability to set up my pull for cleans.
Specificity breeds excellence. If I want to get better at deadlifting, I’m going to work only on picking up the barbell. That’s a completely different skill from being able to pick up a barbell and catching it at the chest.[/quote]
meh, maybe for beginners. but once you get passed that, it’s not so hard. I can easily clean a weight, drop it, deadlift it, drop it, then clean it, with perfect form. Once you get used to the technique and confident in what to do in what lift, it doesn’t really become a problem. For example, doing a snatch pull and consciously coming up on the toes, and then doing a full snatch after that, but letting the toes rise up as they would naturally from the hip extension… most intermediates should be able to handle that.
[quote]Wrah wrote:
[quote]TheJonty wrote:
[quote]Wrah wrote:
You joke about the barbell speed and acceleration because it would prove my point.[/quote]
I joke about the barbell speed and acceleration because I felt your query didn’t hold any water. I fail to see the relevance of an athlete throwing a javelin (which weighs 800 grams) in a discussion about the explosiveness of the olympic lifts (when athletes are lifting in excess of 200 kilograms). I’m also too lazy to try to find those numbers, because I don’t know of anyone else, anywhere, who cares about them, and thus have no idea where one would go about finding them.
Thanks for reading and responding to my whole post though.[/quote]
You are yet another person who likes to characterize the lifts while not knowing their basic attributes. Yeah, don’t care. But then keep your mouth shut if you don’t care kid.[/quote]
lol. have you seen TheJonty lift? He is one of the best O-lifters on this site IIRC. and who are you? you type like you are fucking 17.
Appeal to authority instead of an argument. What a surprise.
[quote]Wrah wrote:
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
[quote]Wrah wrote:
Weightlifters are the perfect deadlifters, powerlifters are amateurs in comparison.[/quote]
This quote right here is evidence that no one should talk to you ever again. [/quote]
I was talking about execution. Come on do we really need to argue about this?[/quote]
in your 2nd post you wrote:
‘‘Weightlifters are strong, and strength is what makes a big weight move. An elite weightlifter is always a worthy opponent against an elite powerlifter.’’
but after a backlash of ‘SHUT UP’ you have slowly wormed your opinion into a different version (see above), claiming that you were never talking about straight up competition (which you clearly were as my quote above shows).
You might (somewhere, somehow) have a valid point Wrah, I dont think anyone is going to deny that. But as for your ability in presenting your opinions in a reasoned, balanced matter - you gotta work on that a bit.
Yes in that post I was talking about competition. Note that I never said weightlifter would beat the powerlifter.
While these are all pointless comparisons (i.e How will the resolution of this argument help you, me or anyone lift more weight?) the topic does interest me.
Wrah, you are asking for arguments against your opinion that Olympic lifters would outlift a Powerlifter in the deadlift (see thread title). Has any Olympic weightlifter, in a competition, ever out-deadlifted Benni Magnusson in just a belt? That’s my argument- simple numbers. The ball is in your court to disprove it now. Until you can say “Yes”, you aren’t correct. Talking about acceleration and ‘who is stronger’ proves nothing- producing bigger deadlifts does.
Simple convention proves you wrong, training the deadlift using the methods that top powerlifters use yields a higher deadlift than training as top weightlifters do. The fast lifts do help the deadlift, but to do the powerlifts, you have to train like a powerlifter. In order to disprove this argument, you need to show us a bigger deadlift.
It’s not ‘our’ arguments challenging you here. You don’t ‘win’ just because no one is taking the time to disprove you. And ultimately, there is no resolution to be found with baseless comparisons- until you find a weightlifter and pay him to do a powerlifting meet and officially lift 1050 (or do it yourself using Olympic training methods), the argument counts for nothing.
PB Andy didn’t ‘appeal to authority’, he reminded you that you didn’t know who you were talking to. If you want to carry on a civil discussion, address TheJonty’s points one by one, and respect him.
You have had many good arguments presented against you (you did ask for them, remember), but you have glossed over them, which is why people aren’t respecting your opinions. I agree that curiosity to improve is an important characteristic in a strength athlete, but defend your opinions, don’t just attack other people.
If you respond to this post at all, please do go through it carefully, and approach it maturely. If not, don’t respond at all.
[quote]XiaoNio wrote:
I slogged through 3 pages of this, and I’m surprised a bigger deal hasn’t been made about form.
The bar path for Olympic lifting is different from that of a deadlift. The pull from the floor that is optimal for a clean is completely different from that for a maximal weight deadlift.
I’ve noticed, when I train with a focus on olympic lifting, my ability to do conventional deadlifts actually decreases a bit. Similarly, when I’ve trained to focus on deadlifting, it ruins my ability to set up my pull for cleans.
Specificity breeds excellence. If I want to get better at deadlifting, I’m going to work only on picking up the barbell. That’s a completely different skill from being able to pick up a barbell and catching it at the chest.[/quote]
This is absolutely correct. Despite their superficial resemblances, cleans/clean pulls etc. and deadlifts are very, very different.
A hypothetical far more interesting than how would o-lifters fare against powerlifters in deadlifting might be: who would be the better overhead pressers?
After 1972, the press was dropped from olympic weightlifting, and the snatch and C&J became the only two contested lifts. The training of weightlifters accordingly changed significantly. Maximal upper body strength was no longer a priority – just enough to fix a snatch or jerk overhead was all that was needed. And the art of pressing disappeared. Today’s o-lifters are no longer specialists in overhead pressing.
So if you could take an accomplished group of o-lifters and one of powerlifters, and test each at 3-month, 6-month, and 12-month intervals, I wonder which group would hold the advantage in the standing overhead press? My guess would be that the powerlifters would have a strong initial advantage.
[quote]SpoonMan89 wrote:
While these are all pointless comparisons (i.e How will the resolution of this argument help you, me or anyone lift more weight?) the topic does interest me.
Wrah, you are asking for arguments against your opinion that Olympic lifters would outlift a Powerlifter in the deadlift (see thread title). Has any Olympic weightlifter, in a competition, ever out-deadlifted Benni Magnusson in just a belt? That’s my argument- simple numbers. The ball is in your court to disprove it now. Until you can say “Yes”, you aren’t correct. Talking about acceleration and ‘who is stronger’ proves nothing- producing bigger deadlifts does.
Simple convention proves you wrong, training the deadlift using the methods that top powerlifters use yields a higher deadlift than training as top weightlifters do. The fast lifts do help the deadlift, but to do the powerlifts, you have to train like a powerlifter. In order to disprove this argument, you need to show us a bigger deadlift.
It’s not ‘our’ arguments challenging you here. You don’t ‘win’ just because no one is taking the time to disprove you. And ultimately, there is no resolution to be found with baseless comparisons- until you find a weightlifter and pay him to do a powerlifting meet and officially lift 1050 (or do it yourself using Olympic training methods), the argument counts for nothing.
PB Andy didn’t ‘appeal to authority’, he reminded you that you didn’t know who you were talking to. If you want to carry on a civil discussion, address TheJonty’s points one by one, and respect him.
You have had many good arguments presented against you (you did ask for them, remember), but you have glossed over them, which is why people aren’t respecting your opinions. I agree that curiosity to improve is an important characteristic in a strength athlete, but defend your opinions, don’t just attack other people.
If you respond to this post at all, please do go through it carefully, and approach it maturely. If not, don’t respond at all.[/quote]
Fuck you.
[quote]Ajax wrote:
[quote]XiaoNio wrote:
I slogged through 3 pages of this, and I’m surprised a bigger deal hasn’t been made about form.
The bar path for Olympic lifting is different from that of a deadlift. The pull from the floor that is optimal for a clean is completely different from that for a maximal weight deadlift.
I’ve noticed, when I train with a focus on olympic lifting, my ability to do conventional deadlifts actually decreases a bit. Similarly, when I’ve trained to focus on deadlifting, it ruins my ability to set up my pull for cleans.
Specificity breeds excellence. If I want to get better at deadlifting, I’m going to work only on picking up the barbell. That’s a completely different skill from being able to pick up a barbell and catching it at the chest.[/quote]
This is absolutely correct. Despite their superficial resemblances, cleans/clean pulls etc. and deadlifts are very, very different.
A hypothetical far more interesting than how would o-lifters fare against powerlifters in deadlifting might be: who would be the better overhead pressers?
After 1972, the press was dropped from olympic weightlifting, and the snatch and C&J became the only two contested lifts. The training of weightlifters accordingly changed significantly. Maximal upper body strength was no longer a priority – just enough to fix a snatch or jerk overhead was all that was needed. And the art of pressing disappeared. Today’s o-lifters are no longer specialists in overhead pressing.
So if you could take an accomplished group of o-lifters and one of powerlifters, and test each at 3-month, 6-month, and 12-month intervals, I wonder which group would hold the advantage in the standing overhead press? My guess would be that the powerlifters would have a strong initial advantage.
[/quote]
Now that would be interesting.
Wrah’s pretty entertaining… he put up a good fight.