Strong is Beautiful

Training
921

So the explanation for toes forward in squats was basically this: an inability to squat with toes pointing forward indicates a weakness, tightness or instability. The toes out is a compensation mechanism.

For me in particular, my hip flexors, lateral knee stablizers and hip ad/abductors are all weak. The point of doing my balancing and squatting rehab exercises with my feet forward is to strengthen all of my weak areas in a non-compensatory position.

She also made me do an interesting demonstration. I was sitting on the table with my feet on the floor pointing straight. With my feet relaxed when I pushed on my outer knee, it was really easy to push my knee in. Then she had me arch my foot hard. With a hard arch in my foot, it was way harder to push my knee in. So she is suggesting that I compensate for my knee cave not with toes out, but with arching my feet.

Of course, now I have to try a toes out stance with my feet arched. :wink:

So here is where I am coming out on this at the moment. I certainly don’t mind giving a good try at hitting my 5/3/1 squat numbers with a compensatory toes out stance. If such a stance actually compensates for my weakness and lets me avoid knee cave on heavy lifts, then AWESOME. Soooo much easier than all this rehab. However, chances are it won’t work (it didn’t today on my heaviest lift) and that for me the only real fix is to strengthen all the weak areas that are actually causing my knee cave.

BTW, she is not a powerlifter but understands that powerlifters squat with a wide stance and toes out. But she is trying to fix my left knee pain, so me squatting heavy weights is not her primary goal.

922

That’s an interesting explanation. I would not be as concerned with lifting heavy weights with a wide stance as I would be with the way that your knees and hips naturally track. Personally, I think that my knees and hips track better and more naturally when I squat toes out, regardless of the width of my stance. (see avatar) But I don’t know enough about physiology and biomechanics to tell your ART that she’s wrong in her assessment.

923

another bench PR! - rememeber this moment when the well runs dry for a while again.

924

Jack, the bottom line is that a toe turnout works for you and alot of other people in compensating for something going on from feet to hips. Oh if that would also work for me! Alas, I am not hopeful.

N., thanks. I am enjoying it. Nothing has happened for me on bench for the longest time, and I know that this will happen again.

925

Congrats on the pr, I know you’ve been fighting your bench lately.

926

Excellent work on the bench - a PR is a super win!!

That is indeed an interesting explanation re: squat stance. I know for a fact that I toe out b/c it feels more natural and certainly allows me to keep the my form as clean as possible since my flexors are so damn tight.

I wonder, if pushing knees out is part of the lift, how would that work with toes forward? Or does it…

Still the freaking dip queen! Jalouse. Great work woman.

927

All of this toes straight, toes out had me thinking. I do my squats with toes straight. I think that’s the way I was taught. I’ve been doing wide stance, toes out squats for my body weight complexes for the change in muscles that it works. I squat tomorrow so I’m going to pay attention to this. Congrats on the bench!

928

Shit, your log is almost full again. If you would have sold add space like I advised, you could have retired by now.

929

[quote]attydeb2005 wrote:
All of this toes straight, toes out had me thinking. I do my squats with toes straight. I think that’s the way I was taught. I’ve been doing wide stance, toes out squats for my body weight complexes for the change in muscles that it works. I squat tomorrow so I’m going to pay attention to this. Congrats on the bench![/quote]

When I do squat (maybe in the gym tomorrow), I start out toes forward but they end up pointing slightly out. Not a lot, just a little outside of forward. Hopefully IH will help me with my form tomorrow.

930

Now Kimba, I’m not saying you gotta go and get some Chucks…just that my feet (and form) prefer them when lifting. However, I would recommend you try to find the flattest soled shoe (barefoot always being the best) you can stand to do squats, DLs, etc. AND I’d agree with the masses…your feet are very nice (in those shoes too!)

Ok now to the good stuff…great job on your bench PR! I’ve done SOME study on biomech. BUT I’m no expert either, and I haven’t found anything about toes out being anything about a weakness just that its a more naturally stable position (could translate to same, I suppose) please don’t ask for refs, I no longer have access to the material. Plus, it was some time ago. I digress. By all means keep moving forward with your rehab, it’ll only help! But above all else, do what works without injury!

You’re an inspiration, keep it up!

931

Way to go on the bench PR! I’m happy for you that it’s finally progressing a bit!

It’s interesting to hear what your ART person had to say about your squat stance. It sounds like your rehab exercises and the tweaks she’s made to your technique are working for you so far, so there must be something to it for you.

I think the key, whether you point your toes out or not, is that your knees track over your feet, and don’t cave in or out. Assuming you’re sticking with a more narrow squat stance, I don’t think keeping your toes pointed straight ahead is going to cause any problems. If you take a wide, powerlifting-style stance, on the other hand, I think toes need to turn out to accomodate knee tracking, if that makes sense.

932

It does make sense, Blue. But I think it’s mighty hard to sit back and squat to depth with a narrow stance and toes pointed forward.

933

Where else can the subject of toes straight or flared produce pages of discussion? Impressive.

Grn, you are a lucky duck to have your own, very personal trainer. I think its time for your log to have pictures of this collaboration.

CDQ, I have black chucks that I use exclusively for sumo deadlifting. I finally figured out how to push against the sides of those shoes to spread the floor. Score!

Jack, there will be no selling out to the Man and an early retirement would bore the crap out of me.

Rachelle, nothing really has fixed my squat issues yet. But I am giving the rehab stuff time to work. And it all may just be a part of gradually getting stronger. A year ago, I’d have terrible knee cave at much lighter weights.

Snapper, I agree. Powerlifting has its own unique body positioning requirements. I aspire to be able to do a nice, non-cavey squat with alot of weight on my back. I’m just unsure how to get there.

934

I would just do as your ART person says and not listen to us! :stuck_out_tongue:

Hopefully the problem will be fixed now, so you can play around with whatever stance you want later!

935

Betty, you are cracking me up! Indeed, when I pay good money for professional advice I absolutely follow it.

I am still in DOMS-ville from my Wednesday training, which got topped off with a Wednesday PM ART session. Before mashing she, my ART girl had me work on kettlebell windmills for the first time ever (HARD with correct form) and my right hip is complaining a bit from being stuck out so far.

I really do wish I recovered faster from hard trainings. Food, sleep, epsom salt baths, light stretching and rehab exercises…check. Still sore.

936

[quote]kimbakimba wrote:
Still sore.
[/quote]

hate when that happens. I grin and tell myself it’s battery acid, fueling the machine…

im a lil off, i know.

937

[quote]kimbakimba wrote:
Betty, you are cracking me up! Indeed, when I pay good money for professional advice I absolutely follow it.

I am still in DOMS-ville from my Wednesday training, which got topped off with a Wednesday PM ART session. Before mashing she, my ART girl had me work on kettlebell windmills for the first time ever (HARD with correct form) and my right hip is complaining a bit from being stuck out so far.

I really do wish I recovered faster from hard trainings. Food, sleep, epsom salt baths, light stretching and rehab exercises…check. Still sore.

[/quote]

Fish Oil?

Sounds crazy I know but I am more sore when I run out and put off going to buy more.

938

CBear, that is a roundabout way of saying “you will suck it up, and like it.” Agree!

Joe, I take about 4 capsules of fish oil every day. I can’t say that it makes much difference, but I’m not comfortable taking the large doses that some recommend.

Friday night training was a commentary-fest. One college-age kid came up to me and asked “what’s with the camera?” When I explained to him that it was for checking my form between sets. He said, “cool” and wandered off.

Then later when I was fiddling around with the deadlift bar already loaded with 45s in order to get the bands on, a nicely-built dude that I’d never seen before without a word comes over and lifts up the bar to make it easier for me to get the band on. I thank him, he smiles and goes away. Then another guy, who is there every time I go and has introduced himself to both me and my husband, came over and asked what the bands were for.

So, in case it wasn’t previously clear to me that the Kimba Deadlifting Show is the most-watched one in the weight room, well there ya go.

5/3/1 - Wave 6, Week 3 - Sumo Deadlifting Day
BW = 111 lbs.

Rehab exercises for warmup (hip flexor hold, sumo squat hold, lunge holds, shoulder dislocates)

Sumo Deadlift
95# 1 x 5 ← this was from the floor with 25# plates, so at a bit of a deficit. Felt good, looked good, things starting out positively!
135# 1 x 5 ← working, all good, done close to touch n’ go.
148.5# 1 x3 ← working, way easier than 2 weeks ago, pretty back, done close to touch n’ go.
166# 1 x 2 ← money set, a bit of a disappointment because things had been going SUPER well up until this point. You can see my reset after 2 and my failed attempt at 3 here:

With bands:
135# 1 x 5, 1 x 3

All in all, this deadlift outing was better than the last six weeks or so. I felt I had better energy and endurance. Although my money set was disappointing, my working sets went easier than in previous weeks.

Also, I did slightly better with my breathing because I remembered to get some big air and brace my belly before the 148.5# set. Made a big difference, and I have high hopes for my belt when it finally gets here that it will help cue me for this.

Glute Bridges (shoulders on floor because the weight room was too crowded to pull a bench over)

135# 1 x 10 ← way easy, paused at top
185# 1 x 10 ← also easy, with pause at top
225# 1 x 10 <–more challenging, paused at top except for last couple reps

Rehab Front Squats, offset feet, one dumbbell
25# dumbbell 4 x 10 reps, switching feet and hands

Pistol squats to bench
3 x 10 L
1 x 10 R

Trying to work my weaker side harder. It is difficult for me to do these without caving in my knee.

I have a sore muscle in my left shoulder from Wednesday’s training, so I thought I would save upper body work for Sunday.

939

[quote]kimbakimba wrote:
So, in case it wasn’t previously clear to me that the Kimba Deadlifting Show is the most-watched one in the weight room, well there ya go.

[/quote]

That doesn’t surprise me.

940

kimba!!! those are some great deads!!!

and as for the squat stance, for me i find i sorta go on auto pilot. I start with toes straight as i’m warming up but as i add my weight , my stance points out a bit. I’m not sure if it means my brain is compensating at trying to make it easier–but whatever the reason for me it works!

same for front squats— but opposite. I used to do a toes out, but whenever i have a hard time, I make sure to see if my feet are straight. Straight on those is easier i find, maybe its some sorta angler thing?? vortex?? vacuum? i can’t figure out he word…fulcrum?? some eight grade sceince term i can’t think of.