Strength vs Size for Nattys

Training
61

An average height (5’10-5’11) “big guy” is what to you? Maybe defining big guy will help here.[/quote]
220+lbs with obvious less than 15% body fat, can’t even do a 1.5x body weight bench, which isn’t that impressive. [/quote]

Personally, I don’t see too many guys who are 5’10-5’11 walking around natty (as the thread title stipulates) @ sub 15%bf who can’t put up solid numbers especially with upper body lifts.

Something is amiss here....Being 5'10 220lbs and "OBVIOUSLY" sub 15% is pretty jacked...I believe you'd be hard pressed to find a healthy guy who meets this criteria and can't put up a 330 1rm bench...
62

[quote]Headache wrote:
An average height (5’10-5’11) “big guy” is what to you? Maybe defining big guy will help here.[/quote]
220+lbs with obvious less than 15% body fat, can’t even do a 1.5x body weight bench, which isn’t that impressive. [/quote]

Personally, I don’t see too many guys who are 5’10-5’11 walking around natty (as the thread title stipulates) @ sub 15%bf who can’t put up solid numbers especially with upper body lifts.

Something is amiss here....Being 5'10 220lbs and "OBVIOUSLY" sub 15% is pretty jacked...I believe you'd be hard pressed to find a healthy guy who meets this criteria and can't put up a 330 1rm bench...

[/quote]

Yeah any full grown male at 5’10ish 220 with sub 15% bodyfat should be able to press 330 with no issues at least once.

Unless his hands almost touch the ground while standing and he has shittiest genetics in the world.

63

[quote]Ecchastang wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]Ecchastang wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:
There’s a big difference between “can’t lift heavy” and “doesn’t lift heavy.”[/quote]
And yet, my statement was still correct, hence the use of the phrase “can’t lift heavy.”[/quote]
I find it difficult to believe that you know lots of “big” guys (subjective term I know) that CAN’T lift heavy (another subjective term). I’ve never seen someone who I considers big (not fat guy) who couldn’t lift heavy, some just choose not too because they can reach their desired goals without it and incur less risk of injury.

An average height (5’10-5’11) “big guy” is what to you? Maybe defining big guy will help here.[/quote]
220+lbs with obvious less than 15% body fat, can’t even do a 1.5x body weight bench, which isn’t that impressive. [/quote]
You are right, that wouldn’t be impressive at all… But do you realize how jacked a 5’10 220+ pound natural is? Especially if they are OBVIOUSLY less than 15%?

That is huge for a natty. I would have a very hard time believing someone that size couldn’t put up 1.5x bw bench if they actually train bench. Heck, I can do better than 1.5x BW and I never really do flat BB bench

I’m not trying to argue, I just think it’s an interesting topic.

64

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]Ecchastang wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]Ecchastang wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:
There’s a big difference between “can’t lift heavy” and “doesn’t lift heavy.”[/quote]
And yet, my statement was still correct, hence the use of the phrase “can’t lift heavy.”[/quote]
I find it difficult to believe that you know lots of “big” guys (subjective term I know) that CAN’T lift heavy (another subjective term). I’ve never seen someone who I considers big (not fat guy) who couldn’t lift heavy, some just choose not too because they can reach their desired goals without it and incur less risk of injury.

An average height (5’10-5’11) “big guy” is what to you? Maybe defining big guy will help here.[/quote]
220+lbs with obvious less than 15% body fat, can’t even do a 1.5x body weight bench, which isn’t that impressive. [/quote]
You are right, that wouldn’t be impressive at all… But do you realize how jacked a 5’10 220+ pound natural is? Especially if they are OBVIOUSLY less than 15%?

That is huge for a natty. I would have a very hard time believing someone that size couldn’t put up 1.5x bw bench if they actually train bench. Heck, I can do better than 1.5x BW and I never really do flat BB bench

I’m not trying to argue, I just think it’s an interesting topic.[/quote]
Another example is a guy that is 5’8" maybe 180ish, and can’t be more than 10%, watch him grunt through 2 reps with 245, after doing 4 with 225. can curl 40’s for days though, and has stick legs.

65

^^maybe he doesn’t train barbell bench? Maybe he had a shoulder injury? Maybe he’s already pre exhausted with DB’s or inclines or any number of things? Who really knows?

Besides, there is a huge size difference in “5’8 maybe 180ish” and 5’10 220+

It’s all just guessing though right? Maybe that guy who looks “180 ish” is really 170? That puts that 245x2 at about 1.5xBW? Could be :wink:

66

[quote]gregron wrote:
It’s all just guessing though right? Maybe that guy who looks “180 ish” is really 170? That puts that 245x2 at about 1.5xBW? Could be ;)[/quote]

That’s the first thing I thought reading this. 180 lbs and 10% bf at 5’8 is a pretty solid physique IMO.

S

67

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:
It’s all just guessing though right? Maybe that guy who looks “180 ish” is really 170? That puts that 245x2 at about 1.5xBW? Could be ;)[/quote]

That’s the first thing I thought reading this. 180 lbs and 10% bf at 5’8 is a pretty solid physique IMO.

S[/quote]

Agreed…there seems to be a lack in understanding real life bf %'s & weights going on

68

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:
It’s all just guessing though right? Maybe that guy who looks “180 ish” is really 170? That puts that 245x2 at about 1.5xBW? Could be ;)[/quote]

That’s the first thing I thought reading this. 180 lbs and 10% bf at 5’8 is a pretty solid physique IMO.

S[/quote]
Especially if he had tiny legs. That 180 would be all upper body and would look pretty awesome in a pair of board shorts :wink:

69

A 220 pound guy at 5’10 and 180 pound guy at 5’8 arent the same size. Also “maybe” 180 can be anything. If he’s 170 or lower (since the stick legs can make his upper body look more impressive)

[quote]Ecchastang wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]Ecchastang wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]Ecchastang wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:
There’s a big difference between “can’t lift heavy” and “doesn’t lift heavy.”[/quote]
And yet, my statement was still correct, hence the use of the phrase “can’t lift heavy.”[/quote]
I find it difficult to believe that you know lots of “big” guys (subjective term I know) that CAN’T lift heavy (another subjective term). I’ve never seen someone who I considers big (not fat guy) who couldn’t lift heavy, some just choose not too because they can reach their desired goals without it and incur less risk of injury.

An average height (5’10-5’11) “big guy” is what to you? Maybe defining big guy will help here.[/quote]
220+lbs with obvious less than 15% body fat, can’t even do a 1.5x body weight bench, which isn’t that impressive. [/quote]
You are right, that wouldn’t be impressive at all… But do you realize how jacked a 5’10 220+ pound natural is? Especially if they are OBVIOUSLY less than 15%?

That is huge for a natty. I would have a very hard time believing someone that size couldn’t put up 1.5x bw bench if they actually train bench. Heck, I can do better than 1.5x BW and I never really do flat BB bench

I’m not trying to argue, I just think it’s an interesting topic.[/quote]
Another example is a guy that is 5’8" maybe 180ish, and can’t be more than 10%, watch him grunt through 2 reps with 245, after doing 4 with 225. can curl 40’s for days though, and has stick legs. [/quote]

70

Fantastic thread.

I have a question, to all experienced and / or willing to chime in:

I am a competitive (raw) powerlifter and weigh around 75-78 kilograms (between 165 and 171). Around this bodyweight, I’ve squatted 445 in a meet, deadlifted 550 during training … and benched a whopping 258 (117,5kg) in a meet.

It’s not experience, as I’ve been training for about 13 years and experimented (for appropriate periods of time, not just program-hopping) with most of the common bench / PL programs. My squat and DL usually went up (or stalled, at worst). My bench either regressed or MARGINALLY increased. By this I mean: 5 lbs over 1 year, or none at all.

In fact, I haven’t benched more than 258 for the last 5 years.

I took a real hard look at myself and found out (despite being able to strict press more than bodyweight and dip and chin with (almost) double bodyweight) that I seriously, seriously lack upper body mass and am almost all back, legs and butt (hence the DL and SQ).

Conclusion:

I need to train like a bodybuilder, because eating more, doing more volume, etc … only gets me injured and / or fatter, rather than it adding (a decent amount of) muscle to my frame.

So now I’m doing slow tempos, more exercises, contractions, isolation exercises, etc… I also found out that I cannot pause bench press 3 x 15 x 60 kg (135lbs), which is fucking pitiful. Even though I can do reps with heavier weights. I’ve trained with groups of powerlifters for extended periods of time, as well as analysed my own form, and it’s “decent”. By which I mean: there aren’t any enormous errors that are going to take me from 258 to 350 overnight.

My question:

Who here used a similar method (training like a bodybuilder, using mostly reps over 8) to break through a bench press plateau? Perhaps they didn’t do it on purpose, but only later found out that their bench press had increased.

71

[quote]Leeuwer wrote:

My question:

Who here used a similar method (training like a bodybuilder, using mostly reps over 8) to break through a bench press plateau? Perhaps they didn’t do it on purpose, but only later found out that their bench press had increased.

[/quote]

I’ve often suspected the same thing if I’m honest. A lot of bodybuilders tend to have very good benches even if they don’t train it anywhere near as often as a powerlifter. I don’t know why it is, but it’s something I’m experimenting with at the moment. The results will surely be interesting.

72

[quote]JordanWebster wrote:

[quote]Leeuwer wrote:

My question:

Who here used a similar method (training like a bodybuilder, using mostly reps over 8) to break through a bench press plateau? Perhaps they didn’t do it on purpose, but only later found out that their bench press had increased.

[/quote]

I’ve often suspected the same thing if I’m honest. A lot of bodybuilders tend to have very good benches even if they don’t train it anywhere near as often as a powerlifter. I don’t know why it is, but it’s something I’m experimenting with at the moment. The results will surely be interesting.
[/quote]

It is all about the creatines brahs.

73

[quote]JordanWebster wrote:

[quote]Leeuwer wrote:

My question:

Who here used a similar method (training like a bodybuilder, using mostly reps over 8) to break through a bench press plateau? Perhaps they didn’t do it on purpose, but only later found out that their bench press had increased.

[/quote]

I’ve often suspected the same thing if I’m honest. A lot of bodybuilders tend to have very good benches even if they don’t train it anywhere near as often as a powerlifter. I don’t know why it is, but it’s something I’m experimenting with at the moment. The results will surely be interesting.
[/quote]

Not all but I’d say there are a lot of powerlifting programs out there that lack bench volume. There seems to be a population that feels like you can’t train your bench two days in a row. This especially evident in many beginner programs that feel the need to rotate presses around with the bench press.

I’ve found that I can train my bench press with both higher volume -and- intensity ranges than my squat and see good results.

74

[quote]Sutebun wrote:

Not all but I’d say there are a lot of powerlifting programs out there that lack bench volume. There seems to be a population that feels like you can’t train your bench two days in a row. This especially evident in many beginner programs that feel the need to rotate presses around with the bench press.

I’ve found that I can train my bench press with both higher volume -and- intensity ranges than my squat and see good results.

[/quote]

I would honestly not call those beginner programs powerlifting programs. I would say they are simply beginner programs, with no vector one way or another.

In terms of actual training for powerlifting proper, I think you’d find a good amount of bench frequency, but the bigger issue is the fact that bench simply does not get you as much poundage as the squat and dead. You’re going to be able to squat and dead more than you bench in most cases, and it pays off the overvalue those at the cost of the bench for most trainees. For a bodybuilder, no one is going to care how much weight you lift, but how you look, and doing the things that will get you a good upperbody will also get you a good bench.

75

[quote]Leeuwer wrote:
My question:

Who here used a similar method (training like a bodybuilder, using mostly reps over 8) to break through a bench press plateau? Perhaps they didn’t do it on purpose, but only later found out that their bench press had increased.[/quote]

I don’t really think that happens much. Whenever I saw someone repping a heavy weight, there’s either some low reps going on, or the person is just naturally strong. What helped me get from 225 to 300 was training it twice per week - once with lots of sets of 1-5 reps at 80-90%(24-36 total reps) and once in the 8-15 bodybuilding range. Avoiding failure at all times. I never got any stronger than that, and now my max bench is probably 250-260. I just don’t use that exercise anymore.

76

[quote]Majin wrote:

[quote]Leeuwer wrote:
My question:

Who here used a similar method (training like a bodybuilder, using mostly reps over 8) to break through a bench press plateau? Perhaps they didn’t do it on purpose, but only later found out that their bench press had increased.[/quote]

I don’t really think that happens much. Whenever I saw someone repping a heavy weight, there’s either some low reps going on, or the person is just naturally strong. What helped me get from 225 to 300 was training it twice per week - once with lots of sets of 1-5 reps at 80-90%(24-36 total reps) and once in the 8-15 bodybuilding range. Avoiding failure at all times. I never got any stronger than that, and now my max bench is probably 250-260. I just don’t use that exercise anymore.[/quote]

I only do bench once a week and I never go below 8-10 reps. Been training this way for quite awhile now. And my strength has continually increased to a pretty respectable bench.

I run usually 5 sets of each exercise of chest with 20 reps on the first 2 sets, 15 reps on the next 2, and 10-12 on the last with weight pyramiding up.

Not saying other things don’t work for people, but that is what has worked for me. Personally, I start to get tendonitis set in with overworking my bench or related exercises.

77

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]Sutebun wrote:

Not all but I’d say there are a lot of powerlifting programs out there that lack bench volume. There seems to be a population that feels like you can’t train your bench two days in a row. This especially evident in many beginner programs that feel the need to rotate presses around with the bench press.

I’ve found that I can train my bench press with both higher volume -and- intensity ranges than my squat and see good results.

[/quote]

I would honestly not call those beginner programs powerlifting programs. I would say they are simply beginner programs, with no vector one way or another.

In terms of actual training for powerlifting proper, I think you’d find a good amount of bench frequency, but the bigger issue is the fact that bench simply does not get you as much poundage as the squat and dead. You’re going to be able to squat and dead more than you bench in most cases, and it pays off the overvalue those at the cost of the bench for most trainees. For a bodybuilder, no one is going to care how much weight you lift, but how you look, and doing the things that will get you a good upperbody will also get you a good bench.
[/quote]

Point taken about the programs. The ones I had in mind would be more properly described as just general strength programs. But even in terms of powerlifting and just caring about numbers, there are still a mix of powerlifters who say you don’t need to bench with high frequency (2-3+ times a week) and others who emphasize frequency. And yeah, I think ythats a good point that focusing on the bench press may or may not be conductive to a PLer’s lifter goal of a bigger total while the bench press and chest movements are generally needed for body builders to achieve their goal.

I know you said in your blog before that if you could reset your training history you’d trade out all your bench pressing work for pressing work. Is this just a personal preference and more in line with your goals? I’m curious, how well do you think pressing carries over to the bench press if someone were to just military press, push press, jerk etc for years and then go all out on bringing their bench press out?

78

[quote]Bauber wrote:

[quote]Majin wrote:

[quote]Leeuwer wrote:
My question:

Who here used a similar method (training like a bodybuilder, using mostly reps over 8) to break through a bench press plateau? Perhaps they didn’t do it on purpose, but only later found out that their bench press had increased.[/quote]

I don’t really think that happens much. Whenever I saw someone repping a heavy weight, there’s either some low reps going on, or the person is just naturally strong. What helped me get from 225 to 300 was training it twice per week - once with lots of sets of 1-5 reps at 80-90%(24-36 total reps) and once in the 8-15 bodybuilding range. Avoiding failure at all times. I never got any stronger than that, and now my max bench is probably 250-260. I just don’t use that exercise anymore.[/quote]

Dude, no offense, but it says in the thread title that this is about “nattys”. You’re about the furthest thing from that on this site. What you do doesn’t apply at all.

I only do bench once a week and I never go below 8-10 reps. Been training this way for quite awhile now. And my strength has continually increased to a pretty respectable bench.

I run usually 5 sets of each exercise of chest with 20 reps on the first 2 sets, 15 reps on the next 2, and 10-12 on the last with weight pyramiding up.

Not saying other things don’t work for people, but that is what has worked for me. Personally, I start to get tendonitis set in with overworking my bench or related exercises.
[/quote]

79

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Bauber wrote:

[quote]Majin wrote:

[quote]Leeuwer wrote:
My question:

Who here used a similar method (training like a bodybuilder, using mostly reps over 8) to break through a bench press plateau? Perhaps they didn’t do it on purpose, but only later found out that their bench press had increased.[/quote]

I don’t really think that happens much. Whenever I saw someone repping a heavy weight, there’s either some low reps going on, or the person is just naturally strong. What helped me get from 225 to 300 was training it twice per week - once with lots of sets of 1-5 reps at 80-90%(24-36 total reps) and once in the 8-15 bodybuilding range. Avoiding failure at all times. I never got any stronger than that, and now my max bench is probably 250-260. I just don’t use that exercise anymore.[/quote]

Dude, no offense, but it says in the thread title that this is about “nattys”. You’re about the furthest thing from that on this site. What you do doesn’t apply at all.

I only do bench once a week and I never go below 8-10 reps. Been training this way for quite awhile now. And my strength has continually increased to a pretty respectable bench.

I run usually 5 sets of each exercise of chest with 20 reps on the first 2 sets, 15 reps on the next 2, and 10-12 on the last with weight pyramiding up.

Not saying other things don’t work for people, but that is what has worked for me. Personally, I start to get tendonitis set in with overworking my bench or related exercises.
[/quote]
[/quote]

Yes, because we all know what works for people on gear never works for nattys. And you do realize there was a time I was natural too and this same approach worked.

So tell me again what I do doesn’t apply at all.

80

[quote]Bauber wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Bauber wrote:

[quote]Majin wrote:

[quote]Leeuwer wrote:
My question:

Who here used a similar method (training like a bodybuilder, using mostly reps over 8) to break through a bench press plateau? Perhaps they didn’t do it on purpose, but only later found out that their bench press had increased.[/quote]

I don’t really think that happens much. Whenever I saw someone repping a heavy weight, there’s either some low reps going on, or the person is just naturally strong. What helped me get from 225 to 300 was training it twice per week - once with lots of sets of 1-5 reps at 80-90%(24-36 total reps) and once in the 8-15 bodybuilding range. Avoiding failure at all times. I never got any stronger than that, and now my max bench is probably 250-260. I just don’t use that exercise anymore.[/quote]

Dude, no offense, but it says in the thread title that this is about “nattys”. You’re about the furthest thing from that on this site. What you do doesn’t apply at all.

I only do bench once a week and I never go below 8-10 reps. Been training this way for quite awhile now. And my strength has continually increased to a pretty respectable bench.

I run usually 5 sets of each exercise of chest with 20 reps on the first 2 sets, 15 reps on the next 2, and 10-12 on the last with weight pyramiding up.

Not saying other things don’t work for people, but that is what has worked for me. Personally, I start to get tendonitis set in with overworking my bench or related exercises.
[/quote]
[/quote]

Yes, because we all know what works for people on gear never works for nattys. And you do realize there was a time I was natural too and this same approach worked.

So tell me again what I do doesn’t apply at all. [/quote]

Agreed.

There is a weird hate in the forums for high reps and DB movements. I don’t know what’s so hard for people to swallow about if you want to look like a bodybuilder train like one?