Oh excuse me for that rdogg after 3 pages some people have
changed your goals for you lol. In that case, all the information you
need is already posted by zraw, gregron and hungry4more.
Good luck!
Oh excuse me for that rdogg after 3 pages some people have
changed your goals for you lol. In that case, all the information you
need is already posted by zraw, gregron and hungry4more.
Good luck!
[quote]sesumatse wrote:
Op wants to gain ten or more pounds of muscle and improve his body composition and strength training will help him do that, what about that guy Ronnie Coleman that said strength training first to gain muscle works.
OP asked about strength or size first and Im citing a relevant bodybuilders own path to gaining muscle, so its relevant.
Strength training is relevant to bodybuilding, find me a title holding bodybuilder that never worried about increasing his weights…
Its great to be an athlete that enjoys bodybuilding and setting new PRs, and new training methods are helpful, ESPECIALLY varying training speeds and resistance curves that get muscles to Grow![/quote]
there are no bodybuilders that dont care about increasing weight please show me where i said this. i said he doesnt need to follow a strength routine when he has bodybuilding goals. okay ronnie coleman started of powerlifting, what about yates, cutler, heathe or kai greene. all great bodybuilders who didnt begin the career with powerlifting.
Well, I certainly wouldnt reccomend powerlifting and an 800lb deadlift for a fitness model lol! Yates is one of my favorites and his back programs helped me alot.
My reccomendation was to establish just a base of strength for him to work with so he could gain the muscle he wanted where he wanted it faster by doing specialization exercises and a bodybuilding program. I explained how this works physiologically and still no comprehension. He did ask if he should gain some strength first so I said yes.
Ryan, I never said u said that and Im not here for drama, this is a training forum! As you said there arent many bodybuilders who dont try to progress their workout poundage upward and thats what Im saying too.
About rep ranges, lower reps will get you stronger than higher reps, this is like saying the heavier a rock is the shorter the distance you can throw it and the more it demands of you. Do sets of only 20 reps and see how strong it gets you…Although I love 20s for the other training benefits they have.
kai green can bench 4+ plates easy. just sayin. Reg Park, Arnold, for DRUG FREE lifters, strength training works FASTER. I mean, if OP gets where he wants in 1-2 months (which is easily possible on a 5x5) as far as weight gain, and then spends a few months hammering out lat raises, weighted chins, incline DB press, shrugs, and whatever else he feels his physique lacks, that’s a finished product in like, 6 months or less.
After that, assuming he’s happy, he’ll be all pump and maintenance and it won’t really matter how he programs.
but i have less experience, just thought i’d mention that 5x5 or SS ISN’T a crazy recommendation. If a beginner was to go to IntenseMuscle (home of DC training) and ask what to start with, it would be 5x5, SS, or 5/3/1, because the big 3 do the best job fastest.
Starting Strength is a merely a reinvented version of much older, more proven routines such as The Strongest Shall Survive by coach Bill Starr. It was designed for football players. Do not do this program if you intend to be a bodybuiler
Yes, I have I have to state this.
STARTING STRENGTH IS THE ABSOLUTE BEST WAY TO ACHIEVE FAST GAINS, BOTH IN SIZE AND STRENGTH.
Mark said it clearly that when your a noob your body is primed for amazingly FAST gains.
squatting 3 times a week, benching and pressing regularly, setting PRS every session is a surefast way to gain mass. LATER is when you polish your stuff
add loads and loads of pounds to your big 4 which are the squat, the bench, the press and the deadlift nd you will get stronger ALL OVER.
its just then when you start adding more isolating type of movements like curls, extensions, hamstring stuff, quad extensions, trap shrugs, things like that.
you have to keep 160% percent of your attention on setting PRS on the big 4. forget everything else, its just a big big big waste of your time you keep that in mind.
IT MAKES SENSE!
a bodybuilding template where you get 20 variations of isolating exercises will get you nowhere that is a fact thats been proved empirically by all the gym zealots that focus their load of attention to the bench and curls and flys and all that crap.
you have to focus on the big 3 and just the big 3.
ive been training with my brother, and made amazing gains using thee starting strength program,
mark rippetoed stated in his book starting strength that if you gain 20lb of mass using his prottocols you will not only get bigger but aswell look better. much much better
alot of people are afraid of adding mass the old fashioned way but thats just crap!!!
as sesumase says get firts a big base you cant build a pyramid using a slim base you have to have a big wide strong base in order to build the pyramid in the most optimal way. tthe base of your pyramid are the big 4 and the best way to get that base as wide as you must is to use starting strength and get as strong as possible there is just not other way around.
most bodybuilders used to train that way in the old days, focusing on the clean and jerk and the power clean and the dealift and bench and all the BIG stuff not puny stuff like lateral rises.
brooks kubik states in his book dinasour training that the best way to built a big foundation is to get strong in the BIG compund movements and not in birding like a lateral rises bird. be a PRESS EAGLE. not a pidgeon!
peace out!!!
[quote]Zoro wrote:
kai green can bench 4+ plates easy. just sayin. Reg Park, Arnold, for DRUG FREE lifters, strength training works FASTER. I mean, if OP gets where he wants in 1-2 months (which is easily possible on a 5x5) as far as weight gain, and then spends a few months hammering out lat raises, weighted chins, incline DB press, shrugs, and whatever else he feels his physique lacks, that’s a finished product in like, 6 months or less.
After that, assuming he’s happy, he’ll be all pump and maintenance and it won’t really matter how he programs.
but i have less experience, just thought i’d mention that 5x5 or SS ISN’T a crazy recommendation. If a beginner was to go to IntenseMuscle (home of DC training) and ask what to start with, it would be 5x5, SS, or 5/3/1, because the big 3 do the best job fastest.[/quote]
lol op will not look like a fitness model within 6 months of training even with a shit ton of gear.
also strong use of examples, you post 3 non natural bodybuilders as an example of what natty trainers should do. those routines are recomended so often because there almost impossible to fuck up, if you have a basic understanding of how to build muscle you could build just as good of a foundation on bodybuilder suited routine.
[quote]Pump_warrior wrote:
Yes, I have I have to state this.
STARTING STRENGTH IS THE ABSOLUTE BEST WAY TO ACHIEVE FAST GAINS, BOTH IN SIZE AND STRENGTH.
Mark said it clearly that when your a noob your body is primed for amazingly FAST gains.
squatting 3 times a week, benching and pressing regularly, setting PRS every session is a surefast way to gain mass. LATER is when you polish your stuff
add loads and loads of pounds to your big 4 which are the squat, the bench, the press and the deadlift nd you will get stronger ALL OVER.
its just then when you start adding more isolating type of movements like curls, extensions, hamstring stuff, quad extensions, trap shrugs, things like that.
you have to keep 160% percent of your attention on setting PRS on the big 4. forget everything else, its just a big big big waste of your time you keep that in mind.
IT MAKES SENSE!
a bodybuilding template where you get 20 variations of isolating exercises will get you nowhere that is a fact thats been proved empirically by all the gym zealots that focus their load of attention to the bench and curls and flys and all that crap.
you have to focus on the big 3 and just the big 3.
ive been training with my brother, and made amazing gains using thee starting strength program,
mark rippetoed stated in his book starting strength that if you gain 20lb of mass using his prottocols you will not only get bigger but aswell look better. much much better
alot of people are afraid of adding mass the old fashioned way but thats just crap!!!
as sesumase says get firts a big base you cant build a pyramid using a slim base you have to have a big wide strong base in order to build the pyramid in the most optimal way. tthe base of your pyramid are the big 4 and the best way to get that base as wide as you must is to use starting strength and get as strong as possible there is just not other way around.
most bodybuilders used to train that way in the old days, focusing on the clean and jerk and the power clean and the dealift and bench and all the BIG stuff not puny stuff like lateral rises.
brooks kubik states in his book dinasour training that the best way to built a big foundation is to get strong in the BIG compund movements and not in birding like a lateral rises bird. be a PRESS EAGLE. not a pidgeon!
peace out!!![/quote]
please tell me your a troll. have you seen the body of people that follow mark rippetoes advice, his protege zack who within 3 moths he turned into a fatass. not saying SS is bad for some people but with physique oriented goals that should do.
[quote]Pump_warrior wrote:
Yes, I have I have to state this.
STARTING STRENGTH IS THE ABSOLUTE BEST WAY TO ACHIEVE FAST GAINS, BOTH IN SIZE AND STRENGTH.
Mark said it clearly that when your a noob your body is primed for amazingly FAST gains.
squatting 3 times a week, benching and pressing regularly, setting PRS every session is a surefast way to gain mass. LATER is when you polish your stuff
add loads and loads of pounds to your big 4 which are the squat, the bench, the press and the deadlift nd you will get stronger ALL OVER.
its just then when you start adding more isolating type of movements like curls, extensions, hamstring stuff, quad extensions, trap shrugs, things like that.
you have to keep 160% percent of your attention on setting PRS on the big 4. forget everything else, its just a big big big waste of your time you keep that in mind.
IT MAKES SENSE!
a bodybuilding template where you get 20 variations of isolating exercises will get you nowhere that is a fact thats been proved empirically by all the gym zealots that focus their load of attention to the bench and curls and flys and all that crap.
you have to focus on the big 3 and just the big 3.
ive been training with my brother, and made amazing gains using thee starting strength program,
mark rippetoed stated in his book starting strength that if you gain 20lb of mass using his prottocols you will not only get bigger but aswell look better. much much better
alot of people are afraid of adding mass the old fashioned way but thats just crap!!!
as sesumase says get firts a big base you cant build a pyramid using a slim base you have to have a big wide strong base in order to build the pyramid in the most optimal way. tthe base of your pyramid are the big 4 and the best way to get that base as wide as you must is to use starting strength and get as strong as possible there is just not other way around.
most bodybuilders used to train that way in the old days, focusing on the clean and jerk and the power clean and the dealift and bench and all the BIG stuff not puny stuff like lateral rises.
brooks kubik states in his book dinasour training that the best way to built a big foundation is to get strong in the BIG compund movements and not in birding like a lateral rises bird. be a PRESS EAGLE. not a pidgeon!
peace out!!![/quote]
no
[quote]ryan.b_96 wrote:
[quote]Pump_warrior wrote:
Yes, I have I have to state this.
STARTING STRENGTH IS THE ABSOLUTE BEST WAY TO ACHIEVE FAST GAINS, BOTH IN SIZE AND STRENGTH.
Mark said it clearly that when your a noob your body is primed for amazingly FAST gains.
squatting 3 times a week, benching and pressing regularly, setting PRS every session is a surefast way to gain mass. LATER is when you polish your stuff
add loads and loads of pounds to your big 4 which are the squat, the bench, the press and the deadlift nd you will get stronger ALL OVER.
its just then when you start adding more isolating type of movements like curls, extensions, hamstring stuff, quad extensions, trap shrugs, things like that.
you have to keep 160% percent of your attention on setting PRS on the big 4. forget everything else, its just a big big big waste of your time you keep that in mind.
IT MAKES SENSE!
a bodybuilding template where you get 20 variations of isolating exercises will get you nowhere that is a fact thats been proved empirically by all the gym zealots that focus their load of attention to the bench and curls and flys and all that crap.
you have to focus on the big 3 and just the big 3.
ive been training with my brother, and made amazing gains using thee starting strength program,
mark rippetoed stated in his book starting strength that if you gain 20lb of mass using his prottocols you will not only get bigger but aswell look better. much much better
alot of people are afraid of adding mass the old fashioned way but thats just crap!!!
as sesumase says get firts a big base you cant build a pyramid using a slim base you have to have a big wide strong base in order to build the pyramid in the most optimal way. tthe base of your pyramid are the big 4 and the best way to get that base as wide as you must is to use starting strength and get as strong as possible there is just not other way around.
most bodybuilders used to train that way in the old days, focusing on the clean and jerk and the power clean and the dealift and bench and all the BIG stuff not puny stuff like lateral rises.
brooks kubik states in his book dinasour training that the best way to built a big foundation is to get strong in the BIG compund movements and not in birding like a lateral rises bird. be a PRESS EAGLE. not a pidgeon!
peace out!!![/quote]
please tell me your a troll. have you seen the body of people that follow mark rippetoes advice, his protege zack who within 3 moths he turned into a fatass. not saying SS is bad for some people but with physique oriented goals that should do. [/quote]
Just googled Rippetoe’s protege zach. My god, nevermind what I just said. O_O
[quote]Pump_warrior wrote:
[quote]ryan.b_96 wrote:
[quote]Pump_warrior wrote:
Yes, I have I have to state this.
STARTING STRENGTH IS THE ABSOLUTE BEST WAY TO ACHIEVE FAST GAINS, BOTH IN SIZE AND STRENGTH.
Mark said it clearly that when your a noob your body is primed for amazingly FAST gains.
squatting 3 times a week, benching and pressing regularly, setting PRS every session is a surefast way to gain mass. LATER is when you polish your stuff
add loads and loads of pounds to your big 4 which are the squat, the bench, the press and the deadlift nd you will get stronger ALL OVER.
its just then when you start adding more isolating type of movements like curls, extensions, hamstring stuff, quad extensions, trap shrugs, things like that.
you have to keep 160% percent of your attention on setting PRS on the big 4. forget everything else, its just a big big big waste of your time you keep that in mind.
IT MAKES SENSE!
a bodybuilding template where you get 20 variations of isolating exercises will get you nowhere that is a fact thats been proved empirically by all the gym zealots that focus their load of attention to the bench and curls and flys and all that crap.
you have to focus on the big 3 and just the big 3.
ive been training with my brother, and made amazing gains using thee starting strength program,
mark rippetoed stated in his book starting strength that if you gain 20lb of mass using his prottocols you will not only get bigger but aswell look better. much much better
alot of people are afraid of adding mass the old fashioned way but thats just crap!!!
as sesumase says get firts a big base you cant build a pyramid using a slim base you have to have a big wide strong base in order to build the pyramid in the most optimal way. tthe base of your pyramid are the big 4 and the best way to get that base as wide as you must is to use starting strength and get as strong as possible there is just not other way around.
most bodybuilders used to train that way in the old days, focusing on the clean and jerk and the power clean and the dealift and bench and all the BIG stuff not puny stuff like lateral rises.
brooks kubik states in his book dinasour training that the best way to built a big foundation is to get strong in the BIG compund movements and not in birding like a lateral rises bird. be a PRESS EAGLE. not a pidgeon!
peace out!!![/quote]
please tell me your a troll. have you seen the body of people that follow mark rippetoes advice, his protege zack who within 3 moths he turned into a fatass. not saying SS is bad for some people but with physique oriented goals that should do. [/quote]
Just googled Rippetoe’s protege zach. My god, nevermind what I just said. O_O
[/quote]
lol need to see before pics, I just lost some respect for rip and his SS
Zach’s goal was to gain mass. He did. He enjoyed remarkable improvement with his lifts in a short time.
He was skinny fat before, and thickened up and got strong. How fucking dare he do that. He isn’t single digit body fat after, but he wasn’t before either.
[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
Zach’s goal was to gain mass. He did. He enjoyed remarkable improvement with his lifts in a short time.
He was skinny fat before, and thickened up and got strong. How fucking dare he do that. He isn’t single digit body fat after, but he wasn’t before either.
[/quote]
if by thicken up you mean put on 40lb’s of fat then yer he did. he is atleast 22-25% body fat.
[quote]ryan.b_96 wrote:
[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
Zach’s goal was to gain mass. He did. He enjoyed remarkable improvement with his lifts in a short time.
He was skinny fat before, and thickened up and got strong. How fucking dare he do that. He isn’t single digit body fat after, but he wasn’t before either.
[/quote]
if by thicken up you mean put on 40lb’s of fat then yer he did. he is atleast 22-25% body fat.[/quote]
How did you hydrostatically weigh him over the internet?
Also, do you know the changes he’s made since then?
Could he not have applied the same dedication to composition changes as he did to getting stronger? If the OP gets stronger with the same reps, do you think he’ll get fat just because?
The OP is weak. What do you suppose will get him stronger? 10-12 work sets once per week or 3 to 4 sets 3x per week?
The gallon of milk per day had more to do with any extra flesh than did the systematic approach to progressively heavier weights being moved.
[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
[quote]ryan.b_96 wrote:
[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
Zach’s goal was to gain mass. He did. He enjoyed remarkable improvement with his lifts in a short time.
He was skinny fat before, and thickened up and got strong. How fucking dare he do that. He isn’t single digit body fat after, but he wasn’t before either.
[/quote]
if by thicken up you mean put on 40lb’s of fat then yer he did. he is atleast 22-25% body fat.[/quote]
How did you hydrostatically weigh him over the internet?
Also, do you know the changes he’s made since then?
Could he not have applied the same dedication to composition changes as he did to getting stronger? If the OP gets stronger with the same reps, do you think he’ll get fat just because?
The OP is weak. What do you suppose will get him stronger? 10-12 work sets once per week or 3 to 4 sets 3x per week?
The gallon of milk per day had more to do with any extra flesh than did the systematic approach to progressively heavier weights being moved.
[/quote]
who cares if it gets him stronger quicker if he is neglecting alot of muscles, bodybuilding is not about who gains stength the fastest. zack put on like 53 pounds in 3 months. he would be lucky if 15 pounds of all that was muscle. i dont know if he is doing a recomp or not, but if someone has to do a recomp or cut after 3 months of training there is something seriously wrong with your nutrition.
I trained for years, and years, not establishing my base of strength as I should have. I did make decent gains and did every bodybuilding program I could find. I admit I used gear a few times because I was stuck and gained some more, while still refusing to change my training.I bought into the advice that any reps under 6 are basically useless for a bodybuilder.
Thank god my total beast ass old boss was at the gym one day when I was training. I asked a typical question cause he obviously had the answer to it"Dave, how the hell do I get bigger and break this plateau?" Iv been at about the same bodyweight for 2 years man…
Dave asked me what I did then he laughed… Not a guy to pull punches he said fuck that magazine bullshit and worrying about going too heavy, fuck the fear of overtraining and dodging volume. Do you deadlift?
I said no, he laughed again.
He took me around the gym, busted my balls somethin fierce, and showed me how to strength train like him. He said meet me back here wed if u wanna do it again and I did. He was a different breed, plenty old enough to be my dad, and natural and totally kicked the shit outa my ass. I finally listened to some advice as he commanded respect because of his age, strength ,attitude, and development.
After my first 3 months of strength training with him he had me break out my old lifting journal and do the exact same workouts I did before.
I completely destroyed the previous recorded weights and reps every time because I was so much stronger. The hypertrophy gains from this were shocking and he explained that the more work the body performs in the same time period, the more muscle grows to meet the demands placed upon it.
I felt cheated by the advice from the magazines saying" bodybuilders can only train this or that way or else it wont do anything for them", very cheated and had wasted years of training doing the same thing.
Starting strength improvements and explosive work have basically been my second Dave. I beast on weights that used to kill me and the initial explosion teaches you how to develop force quickly and get the weight moving faster, which means you finish it when you didnt before.
Again finishing more weight for more reps in the same exercise forces adaptation through hypertrophy.
My god why am I taking the time to do this?
[quote]sesumatse wrote:
I trained for years, and years, not establishing my base of strength as I should have. I did make decent gains and did every bodybuilding program I could find. I admit I used gear a few times because I was stuck and gained some more, while still refusing to change my training.I bought into the advice that any reps under 6 are basically useless for a bodybuilder.
Thank god my total beast ass old boss was at the gym one day when I was training. I asked a typical question cause he obviously had the answer to it"Dave, how the hell do I get bigger and break this plateau?" Iv been at about the same bodyweight for 2 years man…
Dave asked me what I did then he laughed… Not a guy to pull punches he said fuck that magazine bullshit and worrying about going too heavy, fuck the fear of overtraining and dodging volume. Do you deadlift?
I said no, he laughed again.
He took me around the gym, busted my balls somethin fierce, and showed me how to strength train like him. He said meet me back here wed if u wanna do it again and I did. He was a different breed, plenty old enough to be my dad, and natural and totally kicked the shit outa my ass. I finally listened to some advice as he commanded respect because of his age, strength ,attitude, and development.
After my first 3 months of strength training with him he had me break out my old lifting journal and do the exact same workouts I did before.
I completely destroyed the previous recorded weights and reps every time because I was so much stronger. The hypertrophy gains from this were shocking and he explained that the more work the body performs in the same time period, the more muscle grows to meet the demands placed upon it.
I felt cheated by the advice from the magazines saying" bodybuilders can only train this or that way or else it wont do anything for them", very cheated and had wasted years of training doing the same thing.
Starting strength improvements and explosive work have basically been my second Dave. I beast on weights that used to kill me and the initial explosion teaches you how to develop force quickly and get the weight moving faster, which means you finish it when you didnt before.
Again finishing more weight for more reps in the same exercise forces adaptation through hypertrophy.
My god why am I taking the time to do this?
[/quote]
lol stuck at the same weight for 2 years while using gear sound like you had no clue what you were doing. the closest i believe a bodybuilder should get to stength training would be something like phat, 1 power movement followed by high volume assitance work.
Ya, I didnt know what I was doing with training thats why I was stuck.I certainly researched the gear and dosage I used and made great gains while on. I wasnt dumb enough to stay on gear indefinately and wreck my endocrine system however. I was referring to what I maintained as my natural weight after I had done it.
Point is strength training first then bodybuilding training would have been my chosen route if I had it all to do over again, no gear.
The westside one exercise max then lighter assistance work is GREAT I love that.
The 1-6 Mixed neural drive/ hypertrophy program by poliquin is a show stopper for bodybuilders based on the same concept. Do a max single, force your body to activate more motor units, then wait a min or two and do your previous 6 rep max on the exercise, but ul get more reps instantly and youl be shocked as you do 9 reps with a weight u barely go 6 for that same day. Its like living proof that max strength training is beneficial!
[quote]sesumatse wrote:
Ya, I didnt know what I was doing with training thats why I was stuck.I certainly researched the gear and dosage I used and made great gains while on. I wasnt dumb enough to stay on gear indefinately and wreck my endocrine system however. I was referring to what I maintained as my natural weight after I had done it.
Point is strength training first then bodybuilding training would have been my chosen route if I had it all to do over again, no gear.
The westside one exercise max then lighter assistance work is GREAT I love that.
The 1-6 Mixed neural drive/ hypertrophy program by poliquin is a show stopper for bodybuilders based on the same concept. Do a max single, force your body to activate more motor units, then wait a min or two and do your previous 6 rep max on the exercise, but ul get more reps instantly and youl be shocked as you do 9 reps with a weight u barely go 6 for that same day. Its like living proof that max strength training is beneficial![/quote]
i dont even know what your arguing anymore. who cares about westside where talking about someone with strictly physique oriented goals.