Street Fight Critique Thread

Training
81

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]MWP wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:
its going to be even more difficult to defend the choke or break free of it. And in my opinion it definitely does make the choke work faster.

[/quote]

Yep. If you can get it sunk in deep from a true back position with your hooks in place, your opponent is going to have a hard time, more like impossible time, defending because he has no way to use his hands to defend with you behind him. I actually had a guy pass out when I first started out in BJJ. Got my arm in place and really sunk it in deep. The guy didn’t tap, he just tried to pry my arm off. He was out like a block of ice in about 8 seconds. It kinda freaked me out and now when I sink it in I will usually let it go in training even before my partner taps. You can also really make their like uncomfortable without getting your arm under their chin. I have seen the arm go across the TMG and also nose and work wonders. The only downside to that is some nutcase might bite you in a real world situation. [/quote]

Biting from either position is pretty much impossible, believe me, we training biting quite a bit. Even in someone does try to bite your arm, it’s pretty easy to stop if you know how, unless they are really skilled at biting, in which case there are other options once you abort the RNC.[/quote]

Yeah, the only way you get bit when attempting an RNC is if you dont have it sunk. Even then, if someone bites, most people will open their mouths wide. A simple and effect defense? Squeeze even harder. If someone puts their whole mouth around your forearm, and you squeeze your forearm hard INTO their mouth, you are A)going to cause a lot of discomfort for them and B) relieve a good deal of pressure form the bite as you cant bite down very hard when your mouth is being forced open that wide.

A “trained” biter knows that taking small bites is the most effective, painful, and safest way to try to get your attacker to let go of a choke. Small enough that they cant force their arm into your mouth to hold it open as a defense, but large enough to tear flesh. You dont want to try and bite their arm in half, you want to try and take chunks of flesh out. I dont know about you but if someone starts nibbling bits of my arm off, im fucking letting go of that choke.

82

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]MWP wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:
its going to be even more difficult to defend the choke or break free of it. And in my opinion it definitely does make the choke work faster.

[/quote]

Yep. If you can get it sunk in deep from a true back position with your hooks in place, your opponent is going to have a hard time, more like impossible time, defending because he has no way to use his hands to defend with you behind him. I actually had a guy pass out when I first started out in BJJ. Got my arm in place and really sunk it in deep. The guy didn’t tap, he just tried to pry my arm off. He was out like a block of ice in about 8 seconds. It kinda freaked me out and now when I sink it in I will usually let it go in training even before my partner taps. You can also really make their like uncomfortable without getting your arm under their chin. I have seen the arm go across the TMG and also nose and work wonders. The only downside to that is some nutcase might bite you in a real world situation. [/quote]

Biting from either position is pretty much impossible, believe me, we training biting quite a bit. Even in someone does try to bite your arm, it’s pretty easy to stop if you know how, unless they are really skilled at biting, in which case there are other options once you abort the RNC.[/quote]

I need to come train with you. If ya’ll are practicing biting drills, I bet your classes are over the top in real world situations. The only reason I posted that about biting is I did a tournament a few years back in which I got my opponents back. However, he did all the right things to negate the RNC by keeping his chin down etc… so it became handfighting alternating hands to try and get the choke in. I eventually got it although it was more along the chin level and I actually came across his nose pretty hard. He tapped but was pretty pissed that I came across his nose with the choke attempt. I appoloized to the guy and it became a teaching point in our school not long after as what would you do in a real world situation and biting came up as something to potentially look out for.

83

[quote]MWP wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]MWP wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:
its going to be even more difficult to defend the choke or break free of it. And in my opinion it definitely does make the choke work faster.

[/quote]

Yep. If you can get it sunk in deep from a true back position with your hooks in place, your opponent is going to have a hard time, more like impossible time, defending because he has no way to use his hands to defend with you behind him. I actually had a guy pass out when I first started out in BJJ. Got my arm in place and really sunk it in deep. The guy didn’t tap, he just tried to pry my arm off. He was out like a block of ice in about 8 seconds. It kinda freaked me out and now when I sink it in I will usually let it go in training even before my partner taps. You can also really make their like uncomfortable without getting your arm under their chin. I have seen the arm go across the TMG and also nose and work wonders. The only downside to that is some nutcase might bite you in a real world situation. [/quote]

Biting from either position is pretty much impossible, believe me, we training biting quite a bit. Even in someone does try to bite your arm, it’s pretty easy to stop if you know how, unless they are really skilled at biting, in which case there are other options once you abort the RNC.[/quote]

I need to come train with you. If ya’ll are practicing biting drills, I bet your classes are over the top in real world situations. The only reason I posted that about biting is I did a tournament a few years back in which I got my opponents back. However, he did all the right things to negate the RNC by keeping his chin down etc… so it became handfighting alternating hands to try and get the choke in. I eventually got it although it was more along the chin level and I actually came across his nose pretty hard. He tapped but was pretty pissed that I came across his nose with the choke attempt. I appoloized to the guy and it became a teaching point in our school not long after as what would you do in a real world situation and biting came up as something to potentially look out for. [/quote]

Cross face is one of the best ways to open up the RNC when a guy is defending properly. Whats wrong with that?

84

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]MWP wrote:

[quote]SKELAC wrote:
Anyway,you choke them out by pressing on the whole of neck thereby cutting blood circulation to the brain.The brain without oxygen blacks out in a matter of seconds.
Its not pressing on some points on the neck,its by compressing the whole of neck.
[/quote]

Yes, the goal is to get that V of your arm under their chin so you are putting pressure on the carotid arteries. It usually takes about 8-10 seconds for your opponent to completely pass out. Good jits guys will keep their chin in tight in the rear naked position on the ground and hand fight with you so you can’t get that choke or if you extend to far out with your chocking arm they can pull your arm down at the elbow and break that sucker. [/quote]

The fastest and best way to force the tap with that choke is to pretend like you’re trying to pop the head off a daisy. Your elbow should be pressing down under their chin while at the same time, tilting the back of your opponents head up. Even if you dont get the blood choke, its extremely uncomfortable and will almost certainly force the tap.

Just another little tidbit to add. [/quote]

Of course, in proper real life application, I would submit that you are looking to render the guy SAFELY unconscious as opposed to forcing the tap. [/quote]

The fastest way to get a guy to tap is usually the fastest way to get him to stop resisting, whether you’re looking for the tap or not.

Im not worried about his safety in most circumstances. Im worried about mine. [/quote]

I don’t disagree overall, but in practical application LNR/RNC is usually most effective something a third party does as a planned event (i.e. a guy is being violent toward somebody else and a bouncer/security guy/cop takes the hold from behind to subdue the guy, as in the video) as opposed to something you do spontaneously to protect yourself from someone who is coming at you. If you end up doing permanent damage by cranking an improperly applied choke or failing to get someone safely to ground once they go out, it could have very negative consequences for you, especially if you weren’t really in danger yourself to begin with.

I also suggest that if you try to grab me around the neck on the street, it is in your best interest to render me unconscious as this exchange has just escalated to “we are now trying to kill each other” and from my perspective tapping or stopping resisting is the furthest thing from my mind. I am more on board with a tuck my chin/hunch my shoulders before you can get it sunk in then access a real or improvised weapon if possible and do whatever is necessary to make you lose interest in cuddling with me so I can do you some serious harm approach at this stage.

Conversely, where I live, if I am justified in applying an RNC/LNR to somebody else, I am justified in rendering the guy unconscious and will be doing so regardless of whether he taps/stops resisting, but I’m damn sure gonna make sure I’ve got it on him properly and I get him safely to the ground so I don’t catch a charge for negligent homicide when he goes all rubbery and bounces his head off the pavement or shifts in such a way that I am applying pressure to the trachea as opposed to the carotid.

I’m not meaning to be deliberately argumentative, but that’s my training on the subject.

Edited[/quote]

I dont disagree with you. If you are talking only about a street-fight scenario, then rendering a guy unconscious is the main goal of applying an RNC, unless you are just trying to use the RNC to maneuver him into a position where you can subdue without having to knock him out (security or something)

Im gonna try to make that guys experience as uncomfortable as possible, and when you apply that kind of pressure (as i mentioned in my previous post) its going to be even more difficult to defend the choke or break free of it. And in my opinion it definitely does make the choke work faster.

Hard to say as ive never choked a person unconscious with an RNC, but i know in grappling sessions that once i learned to try and “pop their head off” like that when applying the choke, taps came a lot quicker. If you have the choke, that sort of motion forces your arm deeper under their chin and stretches their neck out. While it does cause a lot of discomfort, it also helps to sink the choke in deeper.

Again, if im in a street fight where i really need to knock someone out or i could be harmed, im not gonna pause to think about whether they might suffer additional injuries due to the way i apply something. Everything you do, especially when it comes to fighting, can have negative consequences, whether it was your intention or not, whether you’re right or wrong. I’d rather risk going to prison in one piece than have my family start planning my funeral. [/quote]

Yeah, I think we’re pretty much on the same page.

Regarding safety for the guy on the receiving end: like I said, I see LNR/RNC as something that is best suited for a surprise, third party application by people like police and security who are obligated to get involved in other people’s problems, the video on page one being a prime example. In that situation, you have a professional responsibility to get the guy safely to the ground after he loses consciousness. The bouncer in the video does a decent job of this. As evidenced by the fact that we are watching this video on Youtube, if you are going hands on with someone, someone else is filming it. I submit that it is in your interest to do it appropriately.

If you just drop him like a sack of crap and do your victory dance, I predict you will have a professional and/or legal problem, especially if he gets injured/killed. Similarly, if I find I’m ending up with more of more of a bar choke on the trachea, I’d likely be inclined to relinquish it in favour of something else, as I am not prepared to use lethal force to break up a bar fight. That’s not a risk I would want to assume while intervening in else’ foolishness.

I’m with you though, if it’s a question of my own safety vs. the other guy’s, he’s coming in a distant second.

85

[quote]MWP wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]MWP wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:
its going to be even more difficult to defend the choke or break free of it. And in my opinion it definitely does make the choke work faster.

[/quote]

Yep. If you can get it sunk in deep from a true back position with your hooks in place, your opponent is going to have a hard time, more like impossible time, defending because he has no way to use his hands to defend with you behind him. I actually had a guy pass out when I first started out in BJJ. Got my arm in place and really sunk it in deep. The guy didn’t tap, he just tried to pry my arm off. He was out like a block of ice in about 8 seconds. It kinda freaked me out and now when I sink it in I will usually let it go in training even before my partner taps. You can also really make their like uncomfortable without getting your arm under their chin. I have seen the arm go across the TMG and also nose and work wonders. The only downside to that is some nutcase might bite you in a real world situation. [/quote]

Biting from either position is pretty much impossible, believe me, we training biting quite a bit. Even in someone does try to bite your arm, it’s pretty easy to stop if you know how, unless they are really skilled at biting, in which case there are other options once you abort the RNC.[/quote]

I need to come train with you. If ya’ll are practicing biting drills, I bet your classes are over the top in real world situations. The only reason I posted that about biting is I did a tournament a few years back in which I got my opponents back. However, he did all the right things to negate the RNC by keeping his chin down etc… so it became handfighting alternating hands to try and get the choke in. I eventually got it although it was more along the chin level and I actually came across his nose pretty hard. He tapped but was pretty pissed that I came across his nose with the choke attempt. I appoloized to the guy and it became a teaching point in our school not long after as what would you do in a real world situation and biting came up as something to potentially look out for. [/quote]

Well if you’re ever in the Western MA area let me know. Would be happy to show you some RMA stuff. Or, if you want the full experience, come to one of our Reality Martial Arts weekend camps. This year we’ve got a full day of survival training (fire craft, building shelters, finding water, making traps to catch food, camouflage, etc…), and two full (8+ hours) days that will be a mix of modern RMA (Shihan Walt Lysak Jr. and Shihan Charlie Lysak will be the head instructors), and Ninjutsu (Master James Rosenbach). Might get treated to some other guest world class instructors in there as well, but nothing is confirmed yet, so I don’t want to give any details yet.

86

[quote]SKELAC wrote:
From Russia with love :))

Bwahahahaha! That KOed driver was still looking for some more shaky action after his short sleep Awesome.

87

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

This is an absolute classic. I got ALL the other videos in this thread beat right here.

The first time i saw this i couldnt even make it through the whole thing. The back and forth banter between these two martial artists is great.

Call me crazy, but i think i might be able to take these guys…[/quote]

Hahahaha!! This one of the gayest street fights I ever seen.

It was almost as if I was watching some gay porn. At some point, I began to think, the way those two are talking to each other, the guy on top will ram his cock into the other guy’s mouth by the end of the video. Fuck me!

88

[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

This is an absolute classic. I got ALL the other videos in this thread beat right here.

The first time i saw this i couldnt even make it through the whole thing. The back and forth banter between these two martial artists is great.

Call me crazy, but i think i might be able to take these guys…[/quote]

Good to see you back round here.

Hahahaha!! This one of the gayest street fights I ever seen.

It was almost as if I was watching some gay porn. At some point, I began to think, the way those two are talking to each other, the guy on top will ram his cock into the other guy’s mouth by the end of the video. Fuck me![/quote]

89

[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

This is an absolute classic. I got ALL the other videos in this thread beat right here.

The first time i saw this i couldnt even make it through the whole thing. The back and forth banter between these two martial artists is great.

Call me crazy, but i think i might be able to take these guys…[/quote]

Hahahaha!! This one of the gayest street fights I ever seen.

It was almost as if I was watching some gay porn. At some point, I began to think, the way those two are talking to each other, the guy on top will ram his cock into the other guy’s mouth by the end of the video. Fuck me![/quote]

Oh come one, you finger-banged yourself to this from beginning to end.

90

[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

This is an absolute classic. I got ALL the other videos in this thread beat right here.

The first time i saw this i couldnt even make it through the whole thing. The back and forth banter between these two martial artists is great.

Call me crazy, but i think i might be able to take these guys…[/quote]

This thread went from good to RNC-neat picking technical nuances and to even worse gay stuff!

Got to love the T-Nation forums-you never know where it will take you!

Hahahaha!! This one of the gayest street fights I ever seen.

It was almost as if I was watching some gay porn. At some point, I began to think, the way those two are talking to each other, the guy on top will ram his cock into the other guy’s mouth by the end of the video. Fuck me![/quote]

91

Im no expert, but most of these videos show social violence, the kind where they want to show some kind of dominance , not really hurt the other guy,kind of like monkeys screaming on the nature channel.

Most of these guys don’t really want to fight, they just don’t want to lose face, see the guy taking off his shirt, followed by pushing, hoping the other guy backs down, then the fight starts, a real fighter intent on doing damage doesn’t need that, he will just take you out before you know whats happening.

92

[quote]masfonos wrote:
Im no expert, but most of these videos show social violence, the kind where they want to show some kind of dominance , not really hurt the other guy,kind of like monkeys screaming on the nature channel.

Most of these guys don’t really want to fight, they just don’t want to lose face, see the guy taking off his shirt, followed by pushing, hoping the other guy backs down, then the fight starts, a real fighter intent on doing damage doesn’t need that, he will just take you out before you know whats happening.[/quote]

If you’re implying that the guys in the above video were capable of doing more damage and putting on a better display of martial arts skill, i strongly disagree.

93

[quote]masfonos wrote:
Im no expert, but most of these videos show social violence, the kind where they want to show some kind of dominance , not really hurt the other guy,kind of like monkeys screaming on the nature channel.

Most of these guys don’t really want to fight, they just don’t want to lose face, see the guy taking off his shirt, followed by pushing, hoping the other guy backs down, then the fight starts, a real fighter intent on doing damage doesn’t need that, he will just take you out before you know whats happening.[/quote]

Exactly!

94

This one is pretty good

95

Not really a street fight IMO. Looks more like an an impromptu MMA/Vale Tudo match on a relatively flat, soft open area. Not really the same thing.

96

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]MWP wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]MWP wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:
its going to be even more difficult to defend the choke or break free of it. And in my opinion it definitely does make the choke work faster.

[/quote]

Yep. If you can get it sunk in deep from a true back position with your hooks in place, your opponent is going to have a hard time, more like impossible time, defending because he has no way to use his hands to defend with you behind him. I actually had a guy pass out when I first started out in BJJ. Got my arm in place and really sunk it in deep. The guy didn’t tap, he just tried to pry my arm off. He was out like a block of ice in about 8 seconds. It kinda freaked me out and now when I sink it in I will usually let it go in training even before my partner taps. You can also really make their like uncomfortable without getting your arm under their chin. I have seen the arm go across the TMG and also nose and work wonders. The only downside to that is some nutcase might bite you in a real world situation. [/quote]

Biting from either position is pretty much impossible, believe me, we training biting quite a bit. Even in someone does try to bite your arm, it’s pretty easy to stop if you know how, unless they are really skilled at biting, in which case there are other options once you abort the RNC.[/quote]

I need to come train with you. If ya’ll are practicing biting drills, I bet your classes are over the top in real world situations. The only reason I posted that about biting is I did a tournament a few years back in which I got my opponents back. However, he did all the right things to negate the RNC by keeping his chin down etc… so it became handfighting alternating hands to try and get the choke in. I eventually got it although it was more along the chin level and I actually came across his nose pretty hard. He tapped but was pretty pissed that I came across his nose with the choke attempt. I appoloized to the guy and it became a teaching point in our school not long after as what would you do in a real world situation and biting came up as something to potentially look out for. [/quote]

Cross face is one of the best ways to open up the RNC when a guy is defending properly. Whats wrong with that?[/quote]

Yeah, in a sporting context cross face works well in that situation. Honestly though using a “septum lift/crush” or best of all eye attack works the best (the later will work on anyone regardless of size or strength if you do it right). I also like trapping one of the defending arms with my leg (if in rear guard) controlling the other arm with my arm and then using a sort of “inch worm” action with my free arm to get the opponent to lift their chin. I like this better than the cross face because it allows me to get their chin up and my arm under it in choking position with only 1 hand. I can then release my other arm from theirs and finish the RNC or switch to any number of Gi chokes if they are defending the RNC well (if there is clothing that will allow me to do so).

97

I strongly disagree on the entire point of biting or doing any kind of dirty tricks (eye gouging etc) once you are in a hold or choke.
That’s stuff the EWTO and yellow bamboo tell their students. “Dude he can only box, kick, throw, grapple and choke. All that stuff doesnt work in a street fighting situation. You need to bite, spit and gouge his eyes out. I’m totally cereal bro.” (plus muscles don’t work and weight is useless)
Bas Rutten once had self claimed “Ninjas” come to his gym and tell him that they would get out of a RNC by putting their fingers into his eyes.

He invited them to try do so, and when he had positioned the choke he told them:
“Okay you gouge my eyes out and I break your neck”
<<Wait what…?!>>

Same thing goes for biting when you are in an arm or knee bar or any kind of hold.
Guess what’s going to pop next once you dig your teeth into your opponent.
But I guess somebody already made that point before.

98

[quote]Quiet Warrior wrote:
I strongly disagree on the entire point of biting or doing any kind of dirty tricks (eye gouging etc) once you are in a hold or choke.
That’s stuff the EWTO and yellow bamboo tell their students. “Dude he can only box, kick, throw, grapple and choke. All that stuff doesnt work in a street fighting situation. You need to bite, spit and gouge his eyes out. I’m totally cereal bro.” (plus muscles don’t work and weight is useless)
Bas Rutten once had self claimed “Ninjas” come to his gym and tell him that they would get out of a RNC by putting their fingers into his eyes.

He invited them to try do so, and when he had positioned the choke he told them:
“Okay you gouge my eyes out and I break your neck”
<<Wait what…?!>>

Same thing goes for biting when you are in an arm or knee bar or any kind of hold.
Guess what’s going to pop next once you dig your teeth into your opponent.
But I guess somebody already made that point before.[/quote]

Sigh. This horse has been beaten to death, resurrected, and rebeaten to death so many times on this forum it’s getting silly at this point.

Why do things always have to be “either or”? Biting, eye attacks, body handles (like grabbing and crushing the testicles), and nerve attacks/pain points can all be very effective tactics in someone’s hands who knows how to use them. Grappling (Judo, BJJ, Wrestling, Sambo, etc…) and striking (Boxing, Muay Thai, Kickboxing, Kyokushinkai, etc…) can also be very effective tactics in someone’s hands who knows how to use them. But even better than either in isolation is being able to do all of them well and to be able to blend and synergistically (which results in something which is more than the sum of it’s parts).