Street Fight Critique Thread

[quote]Pigeonkak wrote:

[quote]Khaine wrote:

[quote]SKELAC wrote:
Mostly stand-up with one take down.Nice work although should work more on defence skills!

[/quote]

Love Russian security; fight drunks, be sober, outnumber the opponent, hit first, never stop hitting. They never lose.[/quote]

Well, I wouldn’t say they never lose. I’d venture they usually only post videos of the fights they win. I will say, there approach is very much an argument for smaller fighters against larger opponents and I’m always impressed at the explosiveness with which these guys win. I see a lot more relatively small guys running security in these videos or at least atypically sized bouncers.

The chap being touted in the vidz can definitely get his guard up higher, but it’s not essential. Consider his surroundings. He’s got back up if he gets beaned and he handles himself quite well. Obviously there is an agreement between the security that they let each other slug it out with agro customers for kudos. Of course, if it goes sour, they’ve got each others backs. Also, you’ll hear experienced boxers sometimes say they feel just as comfortable having their hands a leeeeetle lower than usual when boxing and still have reasonable defence and attack speed.

I also assume that people don’t lay assault charges or anything in Russia very much. Because in one fight the security guy clearly throws the first punch.

As for technical critiquing, beyond his low hands, I think his punches were fairly good form and his low kicks on the victims showed well trained hip work and pivot and a suitably poor sense of mercy.

[/quote]

The bouncer landed many punches yet failed to knock the guy out.With any reasonable power behind that first surprise punch he would take him out clean.Fast at kicking or it seems so.

[quote]Khaine wrote:
Strikers in the audience, enjoy this trainwreck (just skip to 1:45 for an actual hit:

Hahahaha!!! Thats just kids fighting!

Plenty of action

Croatian basketball league

Blood choke out 1:40

[quote]SKELAC wrote:
Blood choke out 1:40

Ah refreshing, finally a legitimate application for BJJ/grappling.

That was a GREAT choke.

[quote]rundymc wrote:

[quote]SKELAC wrote:
Blood choke out 1:40

Ah refreshing, finally a legitimate application for BJJ/grappling.[/quote]

I dont have any training in BJJ,but working the doors I did the same many times- its called blood choke in the bouncers circle and its a bread and butter of the profession.To tell you the truth,there is not much to it-once you get hold of the man and slip your forearm under his chin its game over.If they are aggressive,you choke them out.Once they come around,they are confused,scared and have no intent to fight.Anybody can do it.

Working the door,its much harder to handle someone trying to hit you or cut you with a bottle or glass.The its all out attack with anything you can get your hands on.

[quote]magick wrote:
That was a GREAT choke.
[/quote]

What about this great block? ;))

Uh, what the fuck is there to critique from that first video?

This is like asking Ebert to critique a 30 second video of a dude shoving the business end of a wine bottle up his ass. Just…what the fuck are you supposed to say to this shit?

That said, this video was HILARIOUS.

[quote]SKELAC wrote:

[quote]magick wrote:
That was a GREAT choke.
[/quote]

What about this great block? ;))

[/quote]

Good one, that came dangerously close to your hip.

[quote]SKELAC wrote:

[quote]rundymc wrote:

[quote]SKELAC wrote:
Blood choke out 1:40

Ah refreshing, finally a legitimate application for BJJ/grappling.[/quote]

I dont have any training in BJJ,but working the doors I did the same many times- its called blood choke in the bouncers circle and its a bread and butter of the profession.To tell you the truth,there is not much to it-once you get hold of the man and slip your forearm under his chin its game over.If they are aggressive,you choke them out.Once they come around,they are confused,scared and have no intent to fight.Anybody can do it.

Working the door,its much harder to handle someone trying to hit you or cut you with a bottle or glass.The its all out attack with anything you can get your hands on.[/quote]

Agreed. The bouncer did handle that very effectively. That said, I saw a guy get put in one of those headlocks from behind and he managed to move sidewys, grab the bouncer’s leg, and fall over on top of the bouncer onto the edge of the pavement. The kid got up and one of his mates stamped on the bouncer’s head before one of the other security lads came and laid him out. It’s obviously an effective technique against average joe, but as you say, someone going all out to glass you or smash your head in needs to be met with equivalent force.

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:

[quote]SKELAC wrote:

[quote]rundymc wrote:

[quote]SKELAC wrote:
Blood choke out 1:40

Ah refreshing, finally a legitimate application for BJJ/grappling.[/quote]

I dont have any training in BJJ,but working the doors I did the same many times- its called blood choke in the bouncers circle and its a bread and butter of the profession.To tell you the truth,there is not much to it-once you get hold of the man and slip your forearm under his chin its game over.If they are aggressive,you choke them out.Once they come around,they are confused,scared and have no intent to fight.Anybody can do it.

Working the door,its much harder to handle someone trying to hit you or cut you with a bottle or glass.The its all out attack with anything you can get your hands on.[/quote]

Agreed. The bouncer did handle that very effectively. That said, I saw a guy get put in one of those headlocks from behind and he managed to move sidewys, grab the bouncer’s leg, and fall over on top of the bouncer onto the edge of the pavement. The kid got up and one of his mates stamped on the bouncer’s head before one of the other security lads came and laid him out. It’s obviously an effective technique against average joe, but as you say, someone going all out to glass you or smash your head in needs to be met with equivalent force. [/quote]

If that choke is tight, no ones gonna turn into it.

If you’re smart you’ll put him on the ground or face first against a wall once you have the choke, and then worry about finishing it anyway.

It’s a difficult choke. All chokes are difficult because you need to actually apply pressure onto the right places, and people who aren’t experienced will generally fail at it. Plus you need to apply just the right amount of pressure unless you want to cause lasting damage. That’s why I’m so impressed by that bouncer. He did it effortlessly, and the guy went down in seconds like he’s supposed to.

SKELAC- Is that you? In any case, a great block!

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:

[quote]SKELAC wrote:

[quote]rundymc wrote:

[quote]SKELAC wrote:
Blood choke out 1:40

Ah refreshing, finally a legitimate application for BJJ/grappling.[/quote]

I dont have any training in BJJ,but working the doors I did the same many times- its called blood choke in the bouncers circle and its a bread and butter of the profession.To tell you the truth,there is not much to it-once you get hold of the man and slip your forearm under his chin its game over.If they are aggressive,you choke them out.Once they come around,they are confused,scared and have no intent to fight.Anybody can do it.

Working the door,its much harder to handle someone trying to hit you or cut you with a bottle or glass.The its all out attack with anything you can get your hands on.[/quote]

Agreed. The bouncer did handle that very effectively. That said, I saw a guy get put in one of those headlocks from behind and he managed to move sidewys, grab the bouncer’s leg, and fall over on top of the bouncer onto the edge of the pavement. The kid got up and one of his mates stamped on the bouncer’s head before one of the other security lads came and laid him out. It’s obviously an effective technique against average joe, but as you say, someone going all out to glass you or smash your head in needs to be met with equivalent force. [/quote]

If the attacker was able to do that, then the bouncer did not position their body correctly and falling back back should have either wound up in the bouncer’s rear guard (which would have wound up with the attacker getting choked out just the same), or the bouncer wind up on top in rear mount (which is even worse).

Believe me when I say that someone who trains this stuff seriously and with a goal of real world use age will be prepared for pretty much any type of flailing or “primal” defensive tactics that someone might do against it.

-try to reach back and grab my leg? You won’t be able to because of the way that I will be positioning them.

-try to push me back over? You won’t be able to because I’ll have set up a “brace leg”, or just simply move backwards with you (if there is a wall or obstacle that prevents me from doing so I’ll use that for base).

-try to teach back and grab my genitals? You won’t be able to because my hips will be glued to your body and there won’t be any space for you to get to my genitals.

-try to reach up and gouge my eyes or claw my face? You won’t be able to because I’ll be putting downward pressure on your shoulders as well as keeping my head tucked into my arms (this also renders striking ineffective).

-try to reach up and peel or crank fingers? You won’t be able to because one of my hands will be down behind your neck and the other will be tucked into the bend in the opposite elbow.

-try to tuck your chin? Go right ahead. I’ll just attack your eyes and force you (through involuntary flinch response) to lift it so I can sink in the choke. Of course, I could always just jaw crush, face crush, or eye crush you if I wanted but those are more pain compliance maneuvers than true fight enders. If we are talking serious I could always just pull my arm out (raking across it with my fingers/fingernails in the process) while stabilizing your head/shoulders with the opposite hand/arm and blast you with some forearms to the occipital area and maybe a knee to the spine or kidneys and then make distance as well.

Really the only thing that you’re going to be able to do (unless you are very highly trained and can recognize the choke coming from very early (and even then it’s going to be tough and a fight) is to access a weapon (like a boot/pocket knife, firearm, Kubuton if you really know what you’re doing with it, or something else that is going to give you either serious life threatening damage capabilities, or immediate pain compliance properties) and use that. But you had better act quickly and decisively because you’ve only got a couple of seconds before you’re going unconscious.

[quote]magick wrote:
It’s a difficult choke. All chokes are difficult because you need to actually apply pressure onto the right places, and people who aren’t experienced will generally fail at it. Plus you need to apply just the right amount of pressure unless you want to cause lasting damage. That’s why I’m so impressed by that bouncer. He did it effortlessly, and the guy went down in seconds like he’s supposed to.

SKELAC- Is that you? In any case, a great block![/quote]

If that choke is difficult to pull off on untrained people, then it’s not the choke but your skill that is lacking. That choke is easy to pull off on untrained people and even trained people if you are able to get the position (and assuming you aren’t bound by sport rules) to do so.

[quote]magick wrote:
-I don’t know why brown shirt bull rushed him like that. Granted, judo does absolutely no practice on take-downs (we just throw people!), so I cannot comment on it. But brown shirt (henceforth referred to as B), seems to have taken at least some BJJ courses. If so, then he must have know that Yellow shirt (Y) is not at all in a good position to be taken down. A take-down requires explosive force and an accurate targeting of the leg, not what B did.
[/quote]

Takedowns on untrained people don’t require intricate set-ups or perfect timing. Generally they only require that you be in range, commit to the takedown (do so dynamically and forcefully), and have some semblance of the concept of the takedown that you are attempting. This video demonstrates this fact fairly clearly, as evidenced by B’s takedown being sloppy and telegraphed but still taking the bigger Y down with it.

Totally agree though that against skilled people or superior athletes that set-ups are necessary (and even against unskilled people will make things easier).

I’m not really sure what you are trying to say here. There are plenty of legitimate submissions that leave one or both arms free, yet are far from just “hugging your opponent”. Please clarify.

That’s just one legitimate way of positioning your legs while in side control (and a good one if on an especially rough/hostile terrain), but there are plenty of others. B’s position was what’s referred to as a “double knee base” side control and is just as legitimate. True, his positioning wasn’t world class by any stretch of the imagination, but what allowed Y to get up was the fact that B let him get his near arm underneath him, which allowed Y to lever himself out the back door; not because B was in double knee base rather than double leg sprawl side control.

[quote]
I wonder how long B learned BJJ. He couldn’t have learned judo, because judokas tend to be allergic to the ground, especially new ones.[/quote]

By the looks of things not very long. He had done enough to understand the very basics of side control, a double leg tackle, and an Americana, but not long enough to know how to do any of them very well. Probably while belt or maybe (depending on the school) very early blue belt BJJ.

[quote]rundymc wrote:

[quote]SKELAC wrote:
Blood choke out 1:40

Ah refreshing, finally a legitimate application for BJJ/grappling.[/quote]

Pretty good, but it actually could have been even better.

The bouncer should have either bumped the troublemaker’s hips out with his hips or buckled his legs with a kick to the back of the knee and sat him down earlier. This makes struggling even harder for the person being choked, offers less chance of the hammerfisting or grabbing your groin (several times in that video there was space/opportunity to do so for the troublemaker), offers less chances of the troublemaker turning into the choke, less chances of them grabbing or hooking your leg with their leg and driving you over to the ground, prevents them from possibly shoulder throwing you as a defence (though the bouncer did a good job of keeping the troublemakers shoulders behind his hips), and allows greater pressure to be applied with the choke with less effort.

So, all in all good, but could still have been better.

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]SKELAC wrote:

[quote]magick wrote:
That was a GREAT choke.
[/quote]

What about this great block? ;))

[/quote]

Good one, that came dangerously close to your hip.[/quote]

:)))))

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:

[quote]SKELAC wrote:

[quote]rundymc wrote:

[quote]SKELAC wrote:
Blood choke out 1:40

Ah refreshing, finally a legitimate application for BJJ/grappling.[/quote]

I dont have any training in BJJ,but working the doors I did the same many times- its called blood choke in the bouncers circle and its a bread and butter of the profession.To tell you the truth,there is not much to it-once you get hold of the man and slip your forearm under his chin its game over.If they are aggressive,you choke them out.Once they come around,they are confused,scared and have no intent to fight.Anybody can do it.

Working the door,its much harder to handle someone trying to hit you or cut you with a bottle or glass.The its all out attack with anything you can get your hands on.[/quote]

Agreed. The bouncer did handle that very effectively. That said, I saw a guy get put in one of those headlocks from behind and he managed to move sidewys, grab the bouncer’s leg, and fall over on top of the bouncer onto the edge of the pavement. The kid got up and one of his mates stamped on the bouncer’s head before one of the other security lads came and laid him out. It’s obviously an effective technique against average joe, but as you say, someone going all out to glass you or smash your head in needs to be met with equivalent force. [/quote]

Good post.

Once you get the hold of the neck,then you have a big advantage coz if you control the neck,you control the body.
That being said,fighting is a game of chance.There are no absolutes here.
You got to use what is useful to you.
For example,I had seen many fellow bouncers control and restrain aggressive men with different locks-like thumb lock,gripping their wind pipe,wrist control,etc.,but I couldnt do that because in that situation I would get too nervous and aggressive and pumped with adrenaline to do this delicate moves without breaking something on a person.Different chokes and stuff is what worked for me.