Stem Cells, Again

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
What would your (that’s an “all y’all” your, not to Veg) position be on doing experiments on really old people with Alzheimers? Or to further blur the picture, on people with incurable diseases? People on death row?

vroom wrote:
I can see where you could go with a simple answer to this, but at the same time, I think there are differences.

A human embryo has not yet realized its potential of developing into a thinking and feeling being. It may, but it may not, just as seeds may or may not germinate or eggs may or may not hatch.

Once that potential has been reached, then no, you can’t decide to perform medical research on it. We can argue until the cows come home as to when exactly that point is.

However, with Alzheimer’s, diseases and inmates, if they are of sound mind and were to decide they wanted certain types of research or experiments performed (e.g. access to new medicines) then on the flip side, who are we to say no?

If they have lost the capacity to think rationally for themselves, they are still feeling beings, which still differentiates them. So the answer you are looking for is that of course they should not be subjected to research without their rational and informed consent.[/quote]

Actually, I don’t think there is a simple answer. You’d find utilitarian philosophers such as Peter Singer would likely argue that some of the above examples would be just fine, with or without consent (just like he argues that animals are entitled to equal rights to humans and that bestiality is just fine).

The factors you listed are important to consider, and I think they should inform our moral judgments. And you were engaging in the type of analysis we need to engage in societally to examine this – basically, we need to craft a definition of what is human life.

You need to understand that to someone who believes that a fertilized egg has a human soul, those factors you listed may be irrelevant. That’s why I said that until you get to the point of agreement as to what constitutes a human life, and is thus entitled to full protection, you’re going to end up with an argument where people talk past one another.

[quote]Moriarty wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Arlen Specter is now complaining his health care is not good enough because they are not using embryonic stem cells.

What a fucking idiot.

“I hate to personalize this, but when I look back on 1970, and President Nixon declared war on cancer, if that war had been adequately funded like the rest of our wars, I might not have Hodgkin’s lymphoma cancer today.”

-Arlen Specter[/quote]

So the concept is that if enough human embryo’s are destroyed via scientific research that Arlen Specter (and Christopher Reeves, etc.) could crawl the earth a few more years than he otherwise would have, then I must say that I would definitely chose to see the embryos live and become fully grown life with all that they will offer humanity than have good ole Arlen around for a few more years squawking about how his health care needs are more important. How selfish.

[quote]djnixon wrote:
Moriarty wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Arlen Specter is now complaining his health care is not good enough because they are not using embryonic stem cells.

What a fucking idiot.

“I hate to personalize this, but when I look back on 1970, and President Nixon declared war on cancer, if that war had been adequately funded like the rest of our wars, I might not have Hodgkin’s lymphoma cancer today.”

-Arlen Specter

So the concept is that if enough human embryo’s are destroyed via scientific research that Arlen Specter (and Christopher Reeves, etc.) could crawl the earth a few more years than he otherwise would have, then I must say that I would definitely chose to see the embryos live and become fully grown life with all that they will offer humanity than have good ole Arlen around for a few more years squawking about how his health care needs are more important. How selfish.
[/quote]

Yeah that quote is pretty nutty, for obvious reasons.

As a side note though dj, you said you would definitely rather see the embryos live than have Arlen around for a few more years. I think we’d all agree with you there. Would you also rather see them thrown away than a cure for paralysis be found?

I’m just trying to probe your stance on this issue a bit. Do you oppose in-vitro fertilization? If so, it makes sense. If not, why no outrage over throwing embryos away, but outrage over using them to potentially save lives? Again, these are embryos slated for destruction. They will not become “snowflake children.”

[quote]Moriarty wrote:
I’m just trying to probe your stance on this issue a bit. Do you oppose in-vitro fertilization? If so, it makes sense. If not, why no outrage over throwing embryos away, but outrage over using them to potentially save lives? Again, these are embryos slated for destruction. They will not become “snowflake children.”
[/quote]

Uh oh… I wonder if he has friends or family who have used in-vitro? I would guess that most people don’t really know what goes on in the practice of in-vitro fertilization. If abortion is murder, then in-vitro is horrible mass murder on a much grander scale. You would think that those who define rights for the unborn would threaten and bomb and protest the in-vitro clinics WAY before they ever protested an abortion clinic.

Some good reading for those who really try to believe that an embryo is a viable human life, or that if it wasn’t for embryonic stem cell research they’d all become babies.

Is Heaven Populated Chiefly by the Souls of Embryos?
Harvesting stem cells without tears

Ronald Bailey

What are we to think about the fact that Nature (and for believers, Nature’s God) profligately creates and destroys human embryos? John Opitz, a professor of pediatrics, human genetics, and obstetrics and gynecology at the University of Utah, testified before the President’s Council on Bioethics that between 60 and 80 percent of all naturally conceived embryos are simply flushed out in women’s normal menstrual flows unnoticed. This is not miscarriage we’re talking about. The women and their husbands or partners never even know that conception has taken place; the embryos disappear from their wombs in their menstrual flows. In fact, according to Opitz, embryologists estimate that the rate of natural loss for embryos that have developed for seven days or more is 60 percent. The total rate of natural loss of human embryos increases to at least 80 percent if one counts from the moment of conception. About half of the embryos lost are abnormal, but half are not, and had they implanted they would probably have developed into healthy babies.

So millions of viable human embryos each year produced via normal conception fail to implant and never develop further. Does this mean America is suffering a veritable holocaust of innocent human life annihilated? Consider the claim made by right-to-life apologists like Robert George, a Princeton University professor of jurisprudence and a member of the President’s Council on Bioethics, that every embryo is “already a human being.” Does that mean that if we could detect such unimplanted embryos as they leave the womb, we would have a duty to rescue them and try to implant them anyway?

“If the embryo loss that accompanies natural procreation were the moral equivalent of infant death, then pregnancy would have to be regarded as a public health crisis of epidemic proportions: Alleviating natural embryo loss would be a more urgent moral cause than abortion, in vitro fertilization, and stem-cell research combined,” declared Michael Sandel, a Harvard University government professor, also a member of the President’s Council on Bioethics.

As far as I know, bioconservatives like Robert George do not advocate the rescue of naturally conceived unimplanted embryos. But why not? In right-to-life terms, normal unimplanted embryos are the moral equivalents of a 30-year-old mother of three children.

Of course, culturally we do not mourn the deaths of these millions of embryos as we would the death of a child?and reasonably so, because we do in fact know that these embryos are not people. Try this thought experiment. A fire breaks out in a fertility clinic and you have a choice: You can save a three-year-old child or a Petri dish containing 10 seven-day old embryos. Which do you choose to rescue?

Stepping onto dangerous theological ground, it seems that if human embryos consisting of one hundred cells or less are the moral equivalents of a normal adult, then religious believers must accept that such embryos share all of the attributes of a human being, including the possession of an immortal soul. So even if we generously exclude all of the naturally conceived abnormal embryos?presuming, for the sake of theological argument, that imperfections in their gene expression have somehow blocked the installation of a soul?that would still mean that perhaps 40 percent of all the residents of Heaven were never born, never developed brains, and never had thoughts, emotions, experiences, hopes, dreams, or desires.

Yet millions of intelligent people of good will maintain that seven-day-old embryos have the exact same moral standing as do readers of this column. Acting on this sincere belief, they are trying to block biomedical research on human embryonic stem cells that is desired by millions of their fellow citizens.

But there may be a way out of this politico-theological impasse. The President’s Council on Bioethics held an extraordinarily interesting session earlier this month in which two different avenues for obtaining human embryonic stem cells were proposed, in ways that would skirt right-to-life moral objections.

First, Howard Zucker and Donald Landry, two medical professors at Columbia University, proposed “a new definition of death for the human organism, an organism in development, and that is the irreversible arrest of cell division.” They pointed out that a good percentage of in-vitro fertilized (IVF) embryos consist of a mixture of cells, some containing the wrong number of chromosomes (aneuploidy), some with the normal number. Embryos with such cell mixtures often cease development by cell division and thus cannot develop into fetuses, much less babies. Zucker and Landry argue that such embryos can be considered dead, and the normal embryonic cells they contain can be harvested just as organs can be ethically harvested from brain-dead adults. (Animal experiments have already shown that cells harvested from defective embryos will produce normal tissues.) Thus, we get stem cells from an entity that could not, under any circumstances, have become a human being.

William Hurlbut, a consulting professor in the Program of Human Biology at Stanford University and another member of the President’s Council on Bioethics, proposed another way to produce cloned human embryonic stem cells that right-to-lifers should not find morally objectionable. Hurlbut cited work by researcher Janet Rossant at Mount Sinai Hospital in Toronto in which she inactivated the cdx2 gene in mice. Once the cdx2 gene is inactivated, the mouse embryo cannot form a trophoblast?the tissues that grow into the placenta. However, embryonic stem cells do develop, although they cannot form an embryo. Hurlbut proposed an attempt to find similar genes that could be inactivated in the nuclei of adult human cells before they are installed in enucleated human eggs to produce cloned embryonic stem cells that are a genetic match for the person who donates the adult nucleus. (Transplanted cells and tissues produced by such therapeutic cloning would not be rejected by the donor’s immune system.) Once the stem cells have been derived, the inactivated genes could be reactivated so that the stem cells could be used to produce normal transplantable cells and tissues.

“This process does not involve the creation of an embryo that is then altered to transform it into a non-embryonic entity,” explained Hurlbut. “Rather the proposed genetic alteration is accomplished ab initio, the entity is brought into existence with a genetic structure insufficient to generate a human embryo.”

Will this research reduce the number of embryos populating heaven? Who knows? But these options offer a possible way around the moral blockades that impede promising biomedical research on human embryonic stem cells. Should we halt current human embryonic stem-cell research while these possible new avenues of research are being explored? Absolutely not. That would be surrendering to the moral bullying of a minority that wants to halt promising medical research that could cure millions on theological grounds that many of their fellow citizens do not share.

Excellent post, mark.

I think I just heard a bunch of protest signs being dropped…

Ronal Bailey is entitled to his opinion just as George W Bush is.

This is a democratic republic. If people want the federal government to fund new lines of embryonic stem cells all they have to do is pressure elected officials.

There is too much disinformation being spread by both sides on this issue.

I believe this issue is a political red herring.

So who here wouldn’t choose to save the child? And why? Would anyone even think about that Petri dish? Just curious.

[quote]mark57 wrote:
So who here wouldn’t choose to save the child? And why? Would anyone even think about that Petri dish? Just curious.
[/quote]

I would choose an actual child over a potential child, anyday.