Stem Cell Research

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
161

[quote]The Mage wrote:
But you are not getting my point. Abortion is being used as a form of birth control, preventing people from acting responsibly.[/quote]

I’ve never heard of this, I guess you learn something new everyday. You’ve given me something to ponder (bastard, now I have to think). But I pose this to you: is it not more cruel to subject a child to abusive or simply immature parents?

At any rate, like I’ve said in another thread, case-by-case analysis is really needed, as un-PC as it may seem.

162

[quote]Makavali wrote:

I’ve never heard of this, I guess you learn something new everyday. You’ve given me something to ponder (bastard, now I have to think). But I pose this to you: is it not more cruel to subject a child to abusive or simply immature parents?[/quote]

Then there are a lot, and I mean a lot of people who should have had forced abortions based on this logic.

But then again, why assume these parents will automatically be cruel? Why presume potential parents guilty before they even become parents?

And then if they were going to be cruel with this child, why should there be any presumption that the way they would treat the next child would be any different?[quote]

At any rate, like I’ve said in another thread, case-by-case analysis is really needed, as un-PC as it may seem.[/quote]

Depends who does the analysis.

Personally I would accept a day after pill, if it’s actually a day after pill.

“By nine weeks, a developing fetus can hiccup and react to loud noises.”

http://psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-19980901-000026.html

37.5% of abortions are done after this date.

“The roots of human behavior, researchers now know, begin to develop early–just weeks after conception, in fact. Well before a woman typically knows she is pregnant, her embryo’s brain has already begun to bulge…”

From the same Psychology Today article.

It is information like that that has influenced my opinion on this subject.

163

[quote]The Mage wrote:
Sifu wrote:

My point was this. You prolifers are quite willing to force others to have babies they don’t want, because you care sooo much about the baby. But the moment the top of the baby’s head sees daylight for the first time you change your tune to “you’re on your own now kid. Don’t you ever become a problem for me!”.

This is the quote of the pro-deathers. I keep hearing this over and over.

But there is a problem. The person who got pregnant chose to.

Yes, chose to. By not keeping her legs closed, or using protection. [/quote]

That is an absolutely ignorant load of bullshit. Contraception can and does fail. My girlfriend used the pill just like her Gyno told her too. We waited the full two months and she still got pregnant. An abortion was the only option she had.

Category Method Number of unplanned pregnancies among 100 typical users1
Hormonal Combination birth control pills
8

Injections (Depo-Provera)
3

Transdermal patch
8

Progestin-only pills (mini-pills)
8

Vaginal ring
8

IUD Levonorgestrel (LNg 20) IUD
Fewer than 1

Copper T 380-A IUD
Fewer than 1

Barrier methods Condom, male
15

Withdrawal
27

Condom, female
21

Diaphragm with spermicide
16

Spermicide alone
29

Sponge with spermicide (no previous vaginal childbirth)
16

Sponge with spermicide (after vaginal childbirth)
32

Cervical cap (no previous vaginal childbirth)
16

Cervical cap (after vaginal delivery)
32

Fertility awareness Periodic abstinence and fertility awareness methods
25

Surgery Vasectomy
Fewer than 1

Tubal ligation or tubal implants
Fewer than 1

No birth control No birth control
85

Goddamn are you ignorant. Sterilization is the most reliable method and even that has a failure rate.

[quote]
And before you say it, my daughter is a result of this. If we had believed in abortion, she would not be here. I have thought of this before as I have looked at her.

Years later there was a “mistake” made, and there was a possibility of my wife again being pregnant. This time she wasn’t. But we would have gone through with the pregnancy. And with here medical problems, that would have been hard.

But the point is that we engaged in sex, and from that point on, we have already chosen the results.

It is rather rude to think of children, babies, fetuses, whatever as things. Something to be discarded because it is a nuisance. And this is extremely selfish behavior.

Then nothing but excuses are made. All those babies that would need to be adopted, are. Yes there are hard to place cases, but there is no problem with adopting a regular child. (Other then the stupid politics.) Sometimes it can be quick, but can take years. Which is why many people do international adoption. [/quote]

Again you are an ignorant idiot. All those babies do not get adopted. There are many kids who spend their entire childhood in foster care. The vast majority of adoptees only want babies. If they are over 1 year they can spend up to seventeen years in an orphanage waiting to get adopted.

You prolifers are so ignorant and flippant about what you want to do to the foster care system it makes me sick.

This is what happens when the foster care system gets overwhelmed to the point it can no longer cope.

YouTube?

v=rXivHuugp3c&eurl=http://video.google.com/video

search?hl=en&safe=off&q=romanian%

20orphanage&um=1&ie=UTF-

8&sa=N&tabiurl=http://i.ytimg.com/vi/rXivHuugp3c

/default.jpg

[quote]
At one time we did look into adoption, and of a child, not a baby. But the specific child we were interested in was snatched up before we got very far into the process. (Was actually a friend of our daughter at the time.)

Your arguments fall right within the standard quotes of people who like to talk about these things, but don’t even consider it for themselves. [/quote]

164

The first sentence and the last sentence seem to be at odds. If the vast majority of adoptees only want babies, are their not enough adoptees to go around?

I think this is the real crux of your objection.

[quote]You prolifers are so ignorant and flippant about what you want to do to the foster care system it makes me sick.
[/quote]

Since unborn babies have committed no capital offense, they don’t deserve death. It’s not up to the born to determine whether the unborn have a right to live.

165

Could she not line up adoptive parents?

166

[quote]The Mage wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Thirty five million unwanted pregnancies brought to term would have had severe social consequences. Like it or not we have dodged a bullet thanks to Roe v Wade. We can’t care for all the kids we have now. Thirty five million more would just leave them in an even worse position.

I personally know a few women who were drinking heavily or doing drugs when they became pregnant. When they terminated their pregnancies the motivation was that they did not want to produce a baby with fetal alchohol syndrome or a baby with a bad drug addiction. They didn’t feel good about getting an abortion but they really didn’t want to be responsible for an FAS or addict baby.

Ah yes. Unwanted children.

How many of these people didn’t use any form of birth control just because they thought, “Oh, i’ll just get an abortion.” Actually I knew one of these people. (3 abortions before she was 20.)

Also have you read anything about fetal alcohol syndrome, specifically by the people who did the research that made this problems known? At least one of them is disgusted that people get the idea that a small amount of alcohol could cause this problem. When actually it takes very serious drinking to cause this problem.

Anyway it is nice to know you want to eliminate the “undesirables” from society.

On a personal note, I will say that the unexpected parenthood has made me a better person.[/quote]

Good god man you are so fucking ignorant! Alcohol damages the placenta that feeds the fetus. Babies bodies don’t produce the enzymes that metabolize alcohol until they are two or three.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/fas/

When a pregnant woman drinks alcohol, so does her unborn baby. There is no known safe amount of alcohol to drink while pregnant and there also does not appear to be a safe time to drink during pregnancy either.

Therefore, it is recommended that women abstain from drinking alcohol at any time during pregnancy. Women who are sexually active and do not use effective birth control should also refrain from drinking because they could become pregnant and not know for several weeks or more.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/fas/fasask.htm

What are FAS and FASDs?

Prenatal exposure to alcohol can cause a range of disorders, known as fetal alcohol spectrum disorders (FASDs). One of the most severe effects of drinking during pregnancy is fetal alcohol syndrome (FAS).

FAS is one of the leading known preventable causes of mental retardation and birth defects. If a woman drinks alcohol during her pregnancy, her baby can be born with FAS, a lifelong condition that causes physical and mental disabilities. FAS is characterized by abnormal facial features, growth deficiencies, and central nervous system (CNS) problems.

People with FAS might have problems with learning, memory, attention span, communication, vision, hearing, or a combination of these. These problems often lead to difficulties in school and problems getting along with others. FAS is a permanent condition. It affects every aspect of an individual�??s life and the lives of his or her family.

Fetal alcohol spectrum disorders (FASDs) is an umbrella term describing the range of effects that can occur in an individual whose mother drank alcohol during pregnancy. These effects include physical, mental, behavioral, and/or learning disabilities with possible lifelong implications. The term FASDs is not intended for use as a clinical diagnosis.

FASDs include FAS as well as other conditions in which individuals have some, but not all, of the clinical signs of FAS. Three terms often used are fetal alcohol effects (FAE), alcohol-related neurodevelopmental disorder (ARND), and alcohol-related birth defects (ARBD).

The term FAE has been used to describe behavioral and cognitive problems in children who were prenatally exposed to alcohol, but who do not have all of the typical diagnostic features of FAS. In 1996, the Institute of Medicine (IOM) replaced FAE with the terms ARND and ARBD. Children with ARND might have functional or mental problems linked to prenatal alcohol exposure.

These include behavioral or cognitive abnormalities or a combination of both. Children with ARBD might have problems with the heart, kidneys, bones, and/or hearing.

All FASDs are 100% preventable�??if a woman does not drink alcohol while she is pregnant.

Dumping large numbers of FAS babies on the fostercare, social services and educational systems would put huge strains on them.

We can’t even take care of all the healthy children we have now. You prolifers are so full of your dogma that you are absolutely flippant about the consequences.

167

[quote]Makavali wrote:
The Mage wrote:
Also have you read anything about fetal alcohol syndrome, specifically by the people who did the research that made this problems known? At least one of them is disgusted that people get the idea that a small amount of alcohol could cause this problem. When actually it takes very serious drinking to cause this problem.

There is significant confusion. And even now they don’t know how much can actually trigger FAS.

The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists conducted a study of over 400,000 women, all of whom had consumed alcohol during pregnancy. No case of fetal alcohol syndrome occurred and no adverse effects on children were found when consumption was under 8.5 drinks per week.

I guess it’s a matter of how much you consider to be serious drinking. 8.5 drinks = more than 1 per day, but whether that is serious is a matter of interpretation.[/quote]

If a pregnant woman has all 8.5 at once and gets drunk once a week for nine months I would not want to be in the delivery room to see the results.

168

[quote]Sifu wrote:
If a pregnant woman has all 8.5 at once and gets drunk once a week for nine months I would not want to be in the delivery room to see the results. [/quote]

Evenly spaced throughout the week, it would seem to me that not much alcohol is needed to trigger FAS.

169

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
An abortion was the only option she had.

Could she not line up adoptive parents? [/quote]

What for? Planned or unplanned I would take care of my own. Hormonal birth control failure is not the same as a broken condom. My girlfriend was Catholic but her Gynecologist told her she wouldn’t have delivered a healthy baby because she was on the pill.

It affects the lining of the uterus so an embryo should not be able to implant. Without a properly implanted placenta she eventually would have miscarried. Which would have had serious health consequences for her. She could have died. Also the birth control pill hormones deformed the embryo.

http://www.healthywomen.org/healthtopics
/birthcontrolpills
How Birth Control Pills Work
At the beginning of each menstrual cycle, estrogen levels begin to rise. Estrogen helps thicken the lining of the uterus (endometrium) to prepare for a fertilized egg. Once estrogen levels peak, about 14 days into the menstrual cycle, one of the ovaries releases an egg. This monthly release of an egg is called ovulation.

After ovulation, progesterone, another reproductive hormone, begins to rise. Over the next seven days, progesterone further prepares the endometrium for a fertilized egg. Conception occurs when a fertilized egg implants itself in the uterine lining.

If conception does not occur, both estrogen and progesterone levels drop, signaling the now thickened uterine lining to slough off or shed, and menstruation begins.

Birth control pills are a synthetic form of the hormones progesterone and estrogen. They prevent ovulation by maintaining more consistent hormone levels. Without a peak in estrogen, then, the ovary doesn’t get the signal to release an egg.

No egg means no possibility for fertilization and pregnancy. They also thicken cervical mucus so the sperm cannot reach the egg, and make the lining of the uterus unreceptive to the implantation of a fertilized egg.

170

So you did have at least 2 other options: raise the child yourself or put it up for adoption. It’s not my place to judge your behavior, I’m just point out the fact that there were other options.

[quote]My girlfriend was Catholic but her Gynecologist told her she wouldn’t have delivered a healthy baby because she was on the pill. It affects the lining of the uterus so an embryo should not be able to implant.

Without a properly implanted placenta she eventually would have miscarried. Which would have had serious health consequences for her. She could have died. Also the birth control pill hormones deformed the embryo.[/quote]

I’ve never heard this before and I don’t think it’s credible:

[quote]What happens if you take birth control pills while you’re pregnant?

If you continued taking your birth control pill because you didn’t realize you were pregnant, don’t be alarmed. Despite years of this accident happening, there’s very little evidence that exposure to the hormones in birth control pills causes birth defects.

Still, the birth control pill is a potent estrogen. Lessons learned from women who took diethylstilbestrol �?? a synthetic estrogen that was later linked with cancer �?? to prevent miscarriage in early pregnancy suggest that such exposure should be minimized.

Once you learn that you’re pregnant, stop taking the birth control pill.[/quote]

My friend just had a baby under your same circumstances and the baby turned out completely fine.

I still don’t see what the defects have to do with a right to live. We don’t (yet) kill cripples in our society, do we?

171

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Sifu wrote:
If a pregnant woman has all 8.5 at once and gets drunk once a week for nine months I would not want to be in the delivery room to see the results.

Evenly spaced throughout the week, it would seem to me that not much alcohol is needed to trigger FAS.[/quote]

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/fetal-alcohol-

syndrome/DS00184/DSECTION=4

Although doctors aren’t sure how much alcohol you’d have to drink to place your baby at risk, they do know the more you drink, the greater the chance of problems developing.

Because there’s no known safe amount of alcohol consumption during pregnancy, don’t drink alcohol if you are or suspect you are pregnant or you’re attempting to become pregnant �?? you could put your baby at risk even before you realize you’re pregnant.

I have a friend whose girlfriend worked in a bar. On her day of her usual thing was to take advantage of free drinks. Usually she would have 8 strong Long Island iced teas. Then a couple of weekends in a row she got violently ill from it and was missed her period. That is not how you want to find out.

172

Yeah, if you think there is a chance that you might get pregnant, then abstaining from booze would definitely be the way to go.

But what happens with accidental pregnancy where the mother has been drinking heavily?

Pro-lifers don’t consider that scenario, do they.

173

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
What for? Planned or unplanned I would take care of my own.

So you did have at least 2 other options: raise the child yourself or put it up for adoption. It’s not my place to judge your behavior, I’m just point out the fact that there were other options.

My girlfriend was Catholic but her Gynecologist told her she wouldn’t have delivered a healthy baby because she was on the pill. It affects the lining of the uterus so an embryo should not be able to implant.

Without a properly implanted placenta she eventually would have miscarried. Which would have had serious health consequences for her. She could have died. Also the birth control pill hormones deformed the embryo.

I’ve never heard this before and I don’t think it’s credible:
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/

birth-control-pill/WO00098
What happens if you take birth control pills while you’re pregnant?

If you continued taking your birth control pill because you didn’t realize you were pregnant, don’t be alarmed. Despite years of this accident happening, there’s very little evidence that exposure to the hormones in birth control pills causes birth defects.

Still, the birth control pill is a potent estrogen. Lessons learned from women who took diethylstilbestrol �?? a synthetic estrogen that was later linked with cancer �?? to prevent miscarriage in early pregnancy suggest that such exposure should be minimized.

Once you learn that you’re pregnant, stop taking the birth control pill.

My friend just had a baby under your same circumstances and the baby turned out completely fine.

I still don’t see what the defects have to do with a right to live. We don’t (yet) kill cripples in our society, do we? [/quote]

I think the doctor knew best. She is the one who had my girlsfriends blood tests and medical history to go by. My girl and her brother were both bleeders so a miscarrige would have been very risky. I think the Doctor knew what she was doing better than you.

174

If the issue is saving the life of the mother, I agree, it should be allowed. But there, you’re choosing to SAVE one life to keep both from dying, which wouldn’t be right.

Killing a baby because it might have birth defects or be put in an orphanage is a different issue.

175

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
I think the doctor knew best. She is the one who had my girlsfriends blood tests and medical history to go by. My girl and her brother were both bleeders so a miscarrige would have been very risky. I think the Doctor knew what she was doing better than you.

If the issue is saving the life of the mother, I agree, it should be allowed. But there, you’re choosing to SAVE one life to keep both from dying, which wouldn’t be right.

Killing a baby because it might have birth defects or be put in an orphanage is a different issue. [/quote]

It was not a happy situation nor a great solution. But it is a choice I think she deserved to have. For three years we used condoms and rythem with no problem. We went to something new and three months later we had a problem. It happens. People should be able to choose what is best for them, especially when they are doing what it takes to be responsible.

I think it would really be unfair to force someone whose birth control failed into a situation where they have to give birth. Having babies is the riskiest bodily function there is. Women have died from it. I had a girlfriend who bled for months after she had a kid she wanted. It’s a risk that noone should be allowed to force a woman to go through.

176

I think your being hyperbolic here. I don’t know of anyone who’s died in childbirth. It happens in the third world, but seldom here in the developed world. I understand the mother has rights, but so does her unborn child. Both have rights. We assume risk every time we drive on the highway or walk across the street. Being pregnant is another risk that women assume when they have sex. The baby should not be deprived of its rights because of the mother’s risk unless it’s comes to a choice of saving her and aborting the baby or letting both die.

177

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
I think it would really be unfair to force someone whose birth control failed into a situation where they have to give birth. Having babies is the riskiest bodily function there is. Women have died from it. I had a girlfriend who bled for months after she had a kid she wanted. It’s a risk that noone should be allowed to force a woman to go through.

I think your being hyperbolic here. I don’t know of anyone who’s died in childbirth. It happens in the third world, but seldom here in the developed world. [/quote]

You have got to be kidding. America has a death rate on a par with with less well-off parts of eastern Europe such as Latvia, Serbia and Belarus.

SCOTS women are more likely to die during childbirth than in any other part of western Europe, according to new figures.

World Health Organisation research has revealed Scotland’s death rate in maternity units compares badly against all its nearest neighbours.

It stands at more than double the European average and is on a par with less well-off parts of eastern Europe such as Latvia, Serbia and Belarus.

In Scotland, 13 women die for every 100,000 births, compared to seven in the UK as a whole, and a European average of six.

U.S. women are dying from childbirth at the highest rate in decades, new government figures show. Though the risk of death is very small, experts believe increasing maternal obesity and a jump in Caesarean sections are partly to blame.

The U.S. maternal mortality rate rose to 13 deaths per 100,000 live births in 2004, according to statistics released this week by the National Center for Health Statistics.

The rate was 12 per 100,000 live births in 2003 �?? the first time the maternal death rate rose above 10 since 1977.

[quote]
I understand the mother has rights, but so does her unborn child. Both have rights. [/quote]
But in your book a fetus’s rights and a nozy neighbors rights supercede a womans rights to privacy, self determination and control of the most intimate part of her own body

[quote]
We assume risk every time we drive on the highway or walk across the street. Being pregnant is another risk that women assume when they have sex. [/quote]

What about those who use birth control and it fails? Is having their life changed or ended something they assume too. Personally Dude, I think it is very easy to be flippant about the risk when you aren’t the one taking it.

[quote]
The baby should not be deprived of its rights because of the mother’s risk unless it’s comes to a choice of saving her and aborting the baby or letting both die. [/quote]

How magnanimous of you. You’d allow that as long as you could roll it back for everyone else. Of course this would be the last territorial demand just like the Sudetenland was Hitlers.

178

[quote]Sifu wrote:

That is an absolutely ignorant load of bullshit. Contraception can and does fail. My girlfriend used the pill just like her Gyno told her too. We waited the full two months and she still got pregnant. An abortion was the only option she had.
[/quote]

Ah yeah. Birth control never works, therefore never use it, and go for the hanger.

There are reasons for birth control not working. Most often stupidity. (Did you know they actually add in people who have the condom, planning on putting it on later, and not even doing that?)

But I see why you are so strongly opinionated about this. You need to justify your actions.

As I said before we almost had a second child because my wife forgot to take her pill for a short time.

The thing was we never even concidered abortion. It is quite short sighted to say “The only option.” It is also a lazy way to think. People always look for the easy way out.

As I have said before, yes this stuff is not perfect, but just deciding to take the action of fucking requires responsibility. Don’t want to get pregnant? Don’t fuck.

Or stick to blowjobs and hand jobs.

179

[quote]Sifu wrote:

We can’t even take care of all the healthy children we have now. You prolifers are so full of your dogma that you are absolutely flippant about the consequences. [/quote]

Blah blah blah.

As I said I was quoting a researcher.

Apparently I am ignorant.

Then again so is this research:

“A follow-up of children at 18 months of age found that those from women who drank during pregnancy, even two drinks per day, scored higher in several areas of development.”

Wait, benefits from drinking?

Or this:

“An analysis of seven major medical research studies involving over 130,000 pregnancies suggests that consuming two to 14 drinks per week does not increase the risk of giving birth to a child with either malformations or fetal alcohol syndrome.”

Or this:

“Similarly, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists concluded that ‘there is no evidence that an occasional drink is harmful. Women who drink heavily throughout pregnancy may have smaller babies with physical and mental handicaps, but women who drink moderately may have babies with no more problems than those women who drink rarely or not at all.’”

Now I am not saying people should go out and drink while pregnant. Just pointing out the reality, and the fact that this is another subject that has been blown out of proportion.

The general message was that it wasn’t just drinking, but heavy drinking that caused problems. In other words drinking a single drink a day is better then drinking 7 drinks all at once each week.

Sorry if you dislike this information, but don’t shoot the messenger. The only think I am doing is imparting information. I personally don’t care what people think, or if they do not want to hear it, or if it is politically incorrect. The truth is the truth no matter how you feel about it.

And again no I am not saying people should drink while pregnant. Just that the whole idea of FAS being caused by casual drinking is overblown.

http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/FetalAlcoholSyndrome.html

180

[quote]Sifu wrote:

What for? Planned or unplanned I would take care of my own. Hormonal birth control failure is not the same as a broken condom. My girlfriend was Catholic but her Gynecologist told her she wouldn’t have delivered a healthy baby because she was on the pill.

It affects the lining of the uterus so an embryo should not be able to implant. Without a properly implanted placenta she eventually would have miscarried. Which would have had serious health consequences for her. She could have died. Also the birth control pill hormones deformed the embryo.
[/quote]

If true, then this was justified.

Was it an ectopic pregnancy? Because that seems to be the only problem that is increased in association with the pill during pregnancy.

(If I can trust the planned parenthood website that is.)