Stem Cell Research

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
101

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Makavali wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Not to mention the violence done to the babies. Yeah, I see what you mean. Still, those attacks are much less than the millions of babies killed. But there’s no outrage over them, just the doctors doing the murdering. Orwell has certainly triumphed.

We’re not discussing whether or not the people killed/hurt were alive or not are we?

I’d ask that you keep your “won’t someone think of the children” type attitude out of this discussion and lay out your ideas rationally.

I thought we already established that a human life is taken? [/quote] Maybe in your mind that has been established. But yours is a minority view. [quote]It’s mind boggling that pro-choice types would use 7 deaths, since 1977, to indict the pro-life movement as a movenment seething with abortionist shooting kooks. All the while supporting a practice that has ended how many MILLIONS of human lives??[/quote]

You ignored the list Makavali posted showing hundreds of incidents. That list shows a clear and present danger to anyone who goes against the dogma of the anti-abortionists. The ideology and dogma that instigated those acts of violence is the same ideology and dogma that is driving the attack on ESC research.

102

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Sloth wrote:
I thought we already established that a human life is taken?

Sifu: Maybe in your mind that has been established.
[/quote]
Well, no. Forget the fact that it’s an organism (life), that’s individual (seperate organsim from mother and father), and that the species is human. Forget all that hard to forget stuff. The human embryo already is part of the life/developmental cycle of an individual human!!!

To hell I did. I posted the original source for that list, and corrected him on saying it was US only. Those numbers date back to 1977, for two countries. 7 murders, 17 attempted…

Now that is nutty. If that’s what you call a clear and present danger you must refuse to leave your house.

Quick, noone have an strong opinion! People will die!

103

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Sloth wrote:
I thought we already established that a human life is taken?

Sifu: Maybe in your mind that has been established.

Well, no. Forget the fact that it’s an organism (life), that’s individual (seperate organsim from mother and father), and that the species is human. Forget all that hard to forget stuff. The human embryo already is part of the life/developmental cycle of an individual human!!!

You ignored the list Makavali posted showing hundreds of incidents.

To hell I did. I posted the original source for that list, and corrected him on saying it was US only. Those numbers date back to 1977, for two countries. 7 murders, 17 attempted… [/quote]

Arson and bombs are serious crimes that are right up there with attempted murder. Kidnapping can get life in prison. Chemical attacks. There are some really serious crimes on this list. Some of those crimes are so serious they are automatically given over to the FBI to investigate.

7 murdered
17 attempted murders
383 death threats
153 incidents of assault or battery
3 kidnappings
655 bio-terror threats
41 bombings
173 arsons
91 attempted bombings or arsons
619 bomb threats
1630 incidents of trespassing
1264 incidents of vandalism
100 attacks with butyric acid

All this yet people wonder why a prominent wealthy person like Bill Gates doesn’t publicly donate a billion dollars to ESC research.

Osama Bin Laden has strong opinions too but I don’t think most people think what he is doing is okay. That Pro-life crime list looks like a rap sheet for one of Bin Ladens leutenants.

104

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Sloth wrote:
I thought we already established that a human life is taken?

Sifu: Maybe in your mind that has been established.

Well, no. Forget the fact that it’s an organism (life), that’s individual (seperate organsim from mother and father), and that the species is human. Forget all that hard to forget stuff. The human embryo already is part of the life/developmental cycle of an individual human!!!

You ignored the list Makavali posted showing hundreds of incidents.

To hell I did. I posted the original source for that list, and corrected him on saying it was US only. Those numbers date back to 1977, for two countries. 7 murders, 17 attempted…

Arson and bombs are serious crimes that are right up there with attempted murder. Kidnapping can get life in prison. Chemical attacks. There are some really serious crimes on this list. Some of those crimes are so serious they are automatically given over to the FBI to investigate.

7 murdered
17 attempted murders
383 death threats
153 incidents of assault or battery
3 kidnappings
655 bio-terror threats
41 bombings
173 arsons
91 attempted bombings or arsons
619 bomb threats
1630 incidents of trespassing
1264 incidents of vandalism
100 attacks with butyric acid

All this yet people wonder why a prominent wealthy person like Bill Gates doesn’t publicly donate a billion dollars to ESC research.

That list shows a clear and present danger to anyone who goes against the dogma of the anti-abortionists.
Now that is nutty. If that’s what you call a clear and present danger you must refuse to leave your house.

The ideology and dogma that instigated those acts of violence is the same ideology and dogma that is driving the attack on ESC research.
Quick, noone have an strong opinion! People will die!

Osama Bin Laden has strong opinions too but I don’t think most people think what he is doing is okay. That Pro-life crime list looks like a rap sheet for one of Bin Ladens leutenants.[/quote]

We’re talking about 2 nations, since 1977, and a large social movement. The “pro-life crime list?” Just how many people do you think were involved?

105

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Sloth wrote:
I thought we already established that a human life is taken?

Sifu: Maybe in your mind that has been established.

Well, no. Forget the fact that it’s an organism (life), that’s individual (seperate organsim from mother and father), and that the species is human. Forget all that hard to forget stuff. The human embryo already is part of the life/developmental cycle of an individual human!!!

You ignored the list Makavali posted showing hundreds of incidents.

To hell I did. I posted the original source for that list, and corrected him on saying it was US only. Those numbers date back to 1977, for two countries. 7 murders, 17 attempted…

Arson and bombs are serious crimes that are right up there with attempted murder. Kidnapping can get life in prison. Chemical attacks. There are some really serious crimes on this list. Some of those crimes are so serious they are automatically given over to the FBI to investigate.

7 murdered
17 attempted murders
383 death threats
153 incidents of assault or battery
3 kidnappings
655 bio-terror threats
41 bombings
173 arsons
91 attempted bombings or arsons
619 bomb threats
1630 incidents of trespassing
1264 incidents of vandalism
100 attacks with butyric acid

All this yet people wonder why a prominent wealthy person like Bill Gates doesn’t publicly donate a billion dollars to ESC research.

That list shows a clear and present danger to anyone who goes against the dogma of the anti-abortionists.
Now that is nutty. If that’s what you call a clear and present danger you must refuse to leave your house.

The ideology and dogma that instigated those acts of violence is the same ideology and dogma that is driving the attack on ESC research.
Quick, noone have an strong opinion! People will die!

Osama Bin Laden has strong opinions too but I don’t think most people think what he is doing is okay. That Pro-life crime list looks like a rap sheet for one of Bin Ladens leutenants.

We’re talking about 2 nations, since 1977, and a large social movement. The “pro-life crime list?” Just how many people do you think were involved? [/quote]

I don’t know how many Sloth. What I do know is that the pro-life crowd has shown a propensity for violence. That gives potential investors reason to pause and question whether the reward is worth making themselves targets for a bunch of religious zealots.

106

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Sloth wrote:
I thought we already established that a human life is taken?

Sifu: Maybe in your mind that has been established.

Well, no. Forget the fact that it’s an organism (life), that’s individual (seperate organsim from mother and father), and that the species is human. Forget all that hard to forget stuff. The human embryo already is part of the life/developmental cycle of an individual human!!!

You ignored the list Makavali posted showing hundreds of incidents.

To hell I did. I posted the original source for that list, and corrected him on saying it was US only. Those numbers date back to 1977, for two countries. 7 murders, 17 attempted…

Arson and bombs are serious crimes that are right up there with attempted murder. Kidnapping can get life in prison. Chemical attacks. There are some really serious crimes on this list. Some of those crimes are so serious they are automatically given over to the FBI to investigate.

7 murdered
17 attempted murders
383 death threats
153 incidents of assault or battery
3 kidnappings
655 bio-terror threats
41 bombings
173 arsons
91 attempted bombings or arsons
619 bomb threats
1630 incidents of trespassing
1264 incidents of vandalism
100 attacks with butyric acid

All this yet people wonder why a prominent wealthy person like Bill Gates doesn’t publicly donate a billion dollars to ESC research.

That list shows a clear and present danger to anyone who goes against the dogma of the anti-abortionists.
Now that is nutty. If that’s what you call a clear and present danger you must refuse to leave your house.

The ideology and dogma that instigated those acts of violence is the same ideology and dogma that is driving the attack on ESC research.
Quick, noone have an strong opinion! People will die!

Osama Bin Laden has strong opinions too but I don’t think most people think what he is doing is okay. That Pro-life crime list looks like a rap sheet for one of Bin Ladens leutenants.

We’re talking about 2 nations, since 1977, and a large social movement. The “pro-life crime list?” Just how many people do you think were involved?

I don’t know how many Sloth. What I do know is that the pro-life crowd has shown a propensity for violence. That gives potential investors reason to pause and question whether the reward is worth making themselves targets for a bunch of religious zealots.[/quote]

The Pro-life crowd??? You are reaching way too far, with too little numbers. Eco and anti-oil terrorism doesn’t seem to stop the rich, by the way.

P.S. And how in the world could Pro-Choicers even point a finger? How many human lives have been destroyed in the name of “choice.”? The numbers aren’t even remotely comparable.

107

[quote]Sifu wrote:
…

If we want to avoid the disease risk of implanting ESC made from mouse/human hybrids we need a country like America to lead the world in this technology. Otherwise this “not in my backyard” mentality will come back and bite us in the ass.

…[/quote]

All new lines would have the same problems as they are not viable without the mouse parts.

108

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:

Abortionists have no philosophical defense for what they do, they just have bald assertion that it’s not murder or they say it’s a women’s choice.
[/quote]

Correct. They deny reality.

109

[quote]Makavali wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Abortionists have no philosophical defense for what they do, they just have bald assertion that it’s not murder or they say it’s a women’s choice.

Really? No defense? I’d rather not be born than grow up in a family that can’t support me. There’s my argument.[/quote]

And a very weak one at that. Would you choose suicide if you were from a poor family?

110

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Sloth wrote:
I thought we already established that a human life is taken?

Sifu: Maybe in your mind that has been established.

Well, no. Forget the fact that it’s an organism (life), that’s individual (seperate organsim from mother and father), and that the species is human. Forget all that hard to forget stuff. The human embryo already is part of the life/developmental cycle of an individual human!!!

You ignored the list Makavali posted showing hundreds of incidents.

To hell I did. I posted the original source for that list, and corrected him on saying it was US only. Those numbers date back to 1977, for two countries. 7 murders, 17 attempted…

Arson and bombs are serious crimes that are right up there with attempted murder. Kidnapping can get life in prison. Chemical attacks. There are some really serious crimes on this list. Some of those crimes are so serious they are automatically given over to the FBI to investigate.

7 murdered
17 attempted murders
383 death threats
153 incidents of assault or battery
3 kidnappings
655 bio-terror threats
41 bombings
173 arsons
91 attempted bombings or arsons
619 bomb threats
1630 incidents of trespassing
1264 incidents of vandalism
100 attacks with butyric acid

All this yet people wonder why a prominent wealthy person like Bill Gates doesn’t publicly donate a billion dollars to ESC research.

That list shows a clear and present danger to anyone who goes against the dogma of the anti-abortionists.
Now that is nutty. If that’s what you call a clear and present danger you must refuse to leave your house.

The ideology and dogma that instigated those acts of violence is the same ideology and dogma that is driving the attack on ESC research.
Quick, noone have an strong opinion! People will die!

Osama Bin Laden has strong opinions too but I don’t think most people think what he is doing is okay. That Pro-life crime list looks like a rap sheet for one of Bin Ladens leutenants.[/quote]

Given the ubiquity of violence against these poor deathworkers, I can’t help but wonder why the practice is so widespread. I mean, how did abortionists manage to murder 35 million babies in this country alone with all of these mini Osama bin-Ladens running around waiting to exact God’s vengeance? Something tells me it’s the profit motive that keeps these doctors hooking up those vacuums and using those meat hooks. Surely, it’s not the goodness of their hearts.

111

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Sifu wrote:
…

If we want to avoid the disease risk of implanting ESC made from mouse/human hybrids we need a country like America to lead the world in this technology. Otherwise this “not in my backyard” mentality will come back and bite us in the ass.

…

All new lines would have the same problems as they are not viable without the mouse parts.[/quote]

I was not aware that they use mouse eggs in fertility clinics. I think you need to check your facts.

112

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Sifu wrote:
…

If we want to avoid the disease risk of implanting ESC made from mouse/human hybrids we need a country like America to lead the world in this technology. Otherwise this “not in my backyard” mentality will come back and bite us in the ass.

…

All new lines would have the same problems as they are not viable without the mouse parts.

I was not aware that they use mouse eggs in fertility clinics. I think you need to check your facts. [/quote]

They don’t use stem cells in fertility clinics.

Mouse stem cells are used as feeder cells for human embryonic stem cells otherwise they do not survive. They have been trying other methods with limited success.

113

Since some of you pro-lifers care so much about “babies” I have questions for you. Because I want to know just how much you really do care about “babies”.

How many of you have adopted one or more “babies” or are in the process of adopting?

Out of you adopters how many of you would be willing to adopt an older kid? Or does your concern extend only to “babies”?

How many of you donate your time to Big Brothers and Sisters or other mentoring programs because you want to see these “babies” properly nurtured into successful adults?

How many of you are care so much about “babies” that you would support what ever it took to see these “babies” taken care of? Would you be willing to do your part by paying higher taxes to support the expansion in welfare that all the “babies” would require?

What about the rise in crime that thirty five million unwanted pregnancies would have caused when they became adult enough to commit crime? Would you want to see them treated with care and understanding of the fact that they were unwanted “babies”? Or would you say “zero tolerance” lock them up?

What would you do if one of the “babies” came crawling in your bedroom window in the middle of the night? Would your first thought be this might be one of the “babies” so I should handle this with understanding? Or would your first thought be where’s my gun so I can smoke this M.F.?

I have more I could add, but I think this little survey is enough to find who among you is a real T-man who walks what he talks and who is a vaginaless bitch. A bitch who cares about the so called “babies” until they are born and genuinely become babies.

Personally I think a lot of you pro-lifers are hypocritical bitches who are willing to force your opinions onto others but are unwilling to live with the consequences.

I think some of you are so full of religious dogma that you are in denial of the contradictions between this dogma and your own political views.

Frankly having this debate with some of you I feel like I have been arguing with one of our friends in Sweden!

114

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Since some of you pro-lifers care so much about “babies” I have questions for you. Because I want to know just how much you really do care about “babies”.

How many of you have adopted one or more “babies” or are in the process of adopting?

[/quote]

I stopped here. So because someone doesn’t adopt a baby, the baby should’ve been killed? Do you really want to make that your arguement? “You’re better off dead, you orphan! Your mother should have snuffed you out in the womb! You might grow up to be a criminal!” You guys come up with pretty gruesome ideas. Harvest human lives to extend the health and mortality of those fotunate enough to have escaped the womb. And now, kill them in the womb as a precaution against potential criminals.

115

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Since some of you pro-lifers care so much about “babies” I have questions for you. Because I want to know just how much you really do care about “babies”.

How many of you have adopted one or more “babies” or are in the process of adopting?

Out of you adopters how many of you would be willing to adopt an older kid? Or does your concern extend only to “babies”?

How many of you donate your time to Big Brothers and Sisters or other mentoring programs because you want to see these “babies” properly nurtured into successful adults?

How many of you are care so much about “babies” that you would support what ever it took to see these “babies” taken care of? Would you be willing to do your part by paying higher taxes to support the expansion in welfare that all the “babies” would require?

What about the rise in crime that thirty five million unwanted pregnancies would have caused when they became adult enough to commit crime? Would you want to see them treated with care and understanding of the fact that they were unwanted “babies”? Or would you say “zero tolerance” lock them up?

What would you do if one of the “babies” came crawling in your bedroom window in the middle of the night? Would your first thought be this might be one of the “babies” so I should handle this with understanding? Or would your first thought be where’s my gun so I can smoke this M.F.?

I have more I could add, but I think this little survey is enough to find who among you is a real T-man who walks what he talks and who is a vaginaless bitch. A bitch who cares about the so called “babies” until they are born and genuinely become babies.

Personally I think a lot of you pro-lifers are hypocritical bitches who are willing to force your opinions onto others but are unwilling to live with the consequences.

I think some of you are so full of religious dogma that you are in denial of the contradictions between this dogma and your own political views.

Frankly having this debate with some of you I feel like I have been arguing with one of our friends in Sweden![/quote]

You’re all over the map here.

116

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
And a very weak one at that. Would you choose suicide if you were from a poor family?[/quote]

Not if I was already born. THAT would be a sin. But if I was given a choice whether or not to be born into poverty or abuse, I’d choose not to be born.

117

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Since some of you pro-lifers care so much about “babies” I have questions for you. Because I want to know just how much you really do care about “babies”.

How many of you have adopted one or more “babies” or are in the process of adopting?

I stopped here. So because someone doesn’t adopt a baby, the baby should’ve been killed? Do you really want to make that your arguement? “You’re better off dead, you orphan! Your mother should have snuffed you out in the womb! You might grow up to be a criminal!” You guys come up with pretty gruesome ideas. Harvest human lives to extend the health and mortality of those fotunate enough to have escaped the womb. And now, kill them in the womb as a precaution against potential criminals.[/quote]

My point was this. You prolifers are quite willing to force others to have babies they don’t want, because you care sooo much about the baby. But the moment the top of the baby’s head sees daylight for the first time you change your tune to “you’re on your own now kid. Don’t you ever become a problem for me!”.

118

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
You’re all over the map here. [/quote]

Great response, but no he’s not.

Think ahead to when a child who was born into poverty and abuse grows up, bitter at the world and murders and/or abuses someone else. It’s a pretty vicious cycle, because they’ll do the same as their parents and end up abusing their children and so on and so on.

119

What does this have to do with the right of a human being who has committed no capital crime to live?

Our behavior has nothing to do with whether or not a baby has a right not to be deprived of life.

Our claims are that human life begins at conception and that that life has committed no capital offenses worthy of death.

120

[quote]Makavali wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
You’re all over the map here.

Great response, but no he’s not.

Think ahead to when a child who was born into poverty and abuse grows up, bitter at the world and murders and/or abuses someone else. It’s a pretty vicious cycle, because they’ll do the same as their parents and end up abusing their children and so on and so on.[/quote]

That’s punishing somebody with death for a capital offense they haven’t yet committed because they haven’t yet left the womb. I don’t care about any yet-to-happen cycle, I care about the right of the baby to live.