[quote]Makavali wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
It can’t survive outside the womb even after 9 months in without its mother feeding it.
Yes it can. Or are you saying a mother who cannot produce breast milk will have condemned their child to death?[/quote]
Not quite. I’m saying that whether it’s in the womb or out of the womb after normal gestation, it can’t survive on its own, so another criterion will need to be found to determine if abortion is murder.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
Sloth wrote:
But, you won’t argue that a human life is destroyed, correct? We’ve just established life (organism) and species (human), after all.
There was a time when I thought like you. Yes, life is destroyed, but look at the reason for doing so.[/quote]
A human life (I think we agreed) is taken to sustain another. That is correct, right? Bram Stoker wrote a novel about a creature living such a lifestyle. Maybe it was a warning about what we could become.
[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Not quite. I’m saying that whether it’s in the womb or out of the womb after normal gestation, it can’t survive on its own, so another criterion will need to be found to determine if abortion is murder. [/quote]
How this became a discussion about abortion is beyond me. Can the fetus be kept alive on life support?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
A human life (I think we agreed) is taken to sustain another. That is correct, right? Bram Stoker wrote a novel about a creature living such a lifestyle. Maybe it was a warning about what we could become.[/quote]
Miss Betty?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
A human life (I think we agreed) is taken to sustain another. That is correct, right? Bram Stoker wrote a novel about a creature living such a lifestyle. Maybe it was a warning about what we could become.[/quote]
Chick magnets?
[quote]Makavali wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Not quite. I’m saying that whether it’s in the womb or out of the womb after normal gestation, it can’t survive on its own, so another criterion will need to be found to determine if abortion is murder.
Can the fetus be kept alive on life support?[/quote]
Depends.
The normal criteria for calling somebody “alive” in teh medical community is that the person has brainwaves and a heartbeat. That’s very early on in a pregnancy.
Because we’re talking about human embryos in various stages of development when we talk about EMBRYONIC stem cell research.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Abortion clinics have been blown up, doctors and staff have been gunned down.
How many?[/quote]
I haven’t been keeping count, but over the years there have been a few.
[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Perhaps I should clarify my view on this. The pro-lifers are the ones who are most ardently opposed to ESC. Some of the pro-lifers are religious lunatics, who have used bombs and bullets to push their agenda. Abortion clinics have been blown up, doctors and staff have been gunned down. These are terrorist acts that have created a condition of fear and intimidation. Getting rich people who have something to lose (like their rich life) to publicly put money into ESC research is not easy.
I agree that there have been incidents, but the total number is very small. Mostly, abortion doctors live in fear in guilt because they’re doing something they know is wrong. It’s probably very mentally taxing to live with oneself after killing babies. [/quote]
Sure there have only been a handful of murders at abortion clinics but it shows how fanatical some of the opponents of abortion are. These fanatics think that a zygote is a baby. In the climate of intimidation through violence that they have created, it is quite understandable why someone who is wealthy might be reluctant to publicly invest in something that would get the nutjobs labeling them a babykiller.
I doubt that abortion doctors have the moral qualms you apply to them. I think they feel that providing women with a safe alternative to risking their lives using a dirty coathanger is the moral thing to do.
Anyway you prove what I wrote earlier, this part of an agenda of trying to overturn Roe V Wade.
I really wanted a coke and a smile, but I’ll setle for the Coke.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
I doubt that abortion doctors have the moral qualms you apply to them. I think they feel that providing women with a safe alternative to risking their lives using a dirty coathanger is the moral thing to do. [/quote]
Actually, they feel that bringing a baby into the world when the parents aren’t ready is the issue.
Both of you have assumptions about human life, and when it starts.
Makaveli: it seems that you believe that a fetus is not human. While I can’t argue that, I am aware that there are biological ways of defining life. To the best of my knowledge, a fetus fits into this category.
Sloth: You believe that an embryo is human. I am unable to answer this question scientifically however, flawed as this argument may be, a fetus does not possess many of the traits that one generally associates with being a human. (eating, thinking, breathing, self sufficiency.) ( I am aware of the problems with this argument so…)
Overall, the question lies with what it means to be human. This is not a question for any one person to answer; it is instead a question for humans to answer as a consequence of their lives. Biologically life can be defined, but philosophically it is virtually impossible.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Sloth wrote:
But you agree life is ended, correct?
Yes.
But to the same extent that life is ended when I step on a plant.
I don’t understand how that can possibly be. We know a human embryo isn’t a plant. We know what type of organism it is. Right? Isn’t it human? Or does a plant, dolphin, or dog somehow turn into a human at some point in the womb? [/quote]
It takes about 8 weeks for an embryo to begin to resemble something we could recognize. Before that you would have a hard time telling a human embryo from the embryo of any other animal.
[quote]chrillionare wrote:
Sloth: You believe that an embryo is human. I am unable to answer this question scientifically however, flawed as this argument may be, a fetus does not possess many of the traits that one generally associates with being a human. (eating, thinking, breathing, self sufficiency.) ( I am aware of the problems with this argument so…)
[/quote]
Well, yes, science does tell us it’s human. There is no gap in the human developmental life cycle, from embryo on up. It’s not embryo, then-shazam!-a human. It’s a human moving through stages of our life cycle. Embryo, fetus, infant, adolscent, etc. You break one link in that chain, a human life has been snuffed out. If you have scientific literature showing that the embryo isn’t a stage in an indivual human’s life cycle, I’d love to see it. Honestly, if you have science showing that the embryo is not an organism (life), that its species is not human, and that it not new life seperate from the parents, I’d love to see that too.
As far it’s attributes, you’re not going to see those if you snuff out a human life before it’s capacities are developed. That’s not evidence that it’s not human. That’s evidence of the butchery committed by adults who do (or should) have the capacity to know better. Of course, this human life was on it’s way, barring some disease state, to developing it’s characteristics. In fact, it will continue to do so, even after birth. Unless, it gets snuffed out by those of us fortunate enough to have been allowed our run at life, but not generous enough to allow theirs.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Sloth wrote:
But you agree life is ended, correct?
Yes.
But to the same extent that life is ended when I step on a plant.
I don’t understand how that can possibly be. We know a human embryo isn’t a plant. We know what type of organism it is. Right? Isn’t it human? Or does a plant, dolphin, or dog somehow turn into a human at some point in the womb?
It takes about 8 weeks for an embryo to begin to resemble something we could recognize. Before that you would have a hard time telling a human embryo from the embryo of any other animal. [/quote]
No…Science has already told us it’s human. There’s no debate, whatever a human is supposed to look like…
Seriously, if you guys want to argue it’s a rhesus monkey…is that really what you’re trying to do?
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Abortion clinics have been blown up, doctors and staff have been gunned down.
How many?
I haven’t been keeping count, but over the years there have been a few. [/quote]
“In his book On Message, Life Dynamics’ Mark Crutcher sums it up best: “The image of abortion workers having to dodge a hail of automatic weapon fire just to get from their car to the clinic door is utter nonsense.” Crutcher notes that in the years 1993 and 1994, the worst period of violence in pro-life history in which five abortionists and clinic workers were killed, more farmers and twice as many hairdressers were murdered on the job. (The total number of murders that have occurred since Roe v. Wade passed in 1973 is seven.)”
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/dave-pierre/2008/02/20/ap-hints-pro-lifers-bigger-terrorists-foreign-radicals
[quote]Makavali wrote:
Let me put it another way, I don’t consider the embryo to be self aware until a fair way into the pregnancy.
No Skynet jokes please.[/quote]
Exactly at what point does it become self aware?
[quote]The Mage wrote:
Exactly at what point does it become self aware?[/quote]
April 19, 2011.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Abortion clinics have been blown up, doctors and staff have been gunned down.
How many?
I haven’t been keeping count, but over the years there have been a few.
“In his book On Message, Life Dynamics’ Mark Crutcher sums it up best: “The image of abortion workers having to dodge a hail of automatic weapon fire just to get from their car to the clinic door is utter nonsense.” Crutcher notes that in the years 1993 and 1994, the worst period of violence in pro-life history in which five abortionists and clinic workers were killed, more farmers and twice as many hairdressers were murdered on the job. (The total number of murders that have occurred since Roe v. Wade passed in 1973 is seven.)”
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/dave-pierre/2008/02/20/ap-hints-pro-lifers-bigger-terrorists-foreign-radicals
[/quote]
Farmers and hairdressers are not murdered on the job because people are violently opposed to their profession. So your comparison is absurd.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Sloth wrote:
But you agree life is ended, correct?
Yes.
But to the same extent that life is ended when I step on a plant.
I don’t understand how that can possibly be. We know a human embryo isn’t a plant. We know what type of organism it is. Right? Isn’t it human? Or does a plant, dolphin, or dog somehow turn into a human at some point in the womb?
It takes about 8 weeks for an embryo to begin to resemble something we could recognize. Before that you would have a hard time telling a human embryo from the embryo of any other animal.
No…Science has already told us it’s human. There’s no debate, whatever a human is supposed to look like…
[/quote]
This debate is about a clump of less than a thousand undifferentiated cells. In some cases it is as little as one cell. Human beings are not amoeba.
If we are ever to understand the process of differentiation we have to start at the beginning, which means we have to study ESC.
If we want to avoid the disease risk of implanting ESC made from mouse/human hybrids we need a country like America to lead the world in this technology. Otherwise this “not in my backyard” mentality will come back and bite us in the ass.
If America gives up leadership in this technology all your worst nightmares about ESC will come true. Because it will go on in a country where people just don’t give a fuck about ethics.