I dont think you have a high E problem to begin with. You saw a high E value and immediately blame your lack of libido it on it. Your problem is prolly not enough free T. Raise your free T and watch your problems go away. Its simple. Forget E, and inject more to get more.
@middleages - Really thank you for the guidance. I am wondering I take the following approach for now
- Up the Test dose to 75mg/shot e3d and gradually increase to max 90mg/shot. I don’t want to reach a cycle dosage. I want to have like a proper TRT dosage.
- Pause HCG completely until I streamline my levels which is normally for 6-12 weeks.
- Test my levels and see how I feel after 6 weeks .
- If all goes well then slowly add once a week dosage of HCG of 250 IUs.
What do you think of the above approach? Also, please can you clarify why my Test Levels came down suddenly when I paused HCG? Does HCG increase T levels to such high levels because when I was on HCG, my test levels were never below 900. Currently it’s at 490ng/dl
I agree with @middleages that your test/E2 ratio is poor. Increasing test would hopefully get it to at least 30.
To chime in on the HCG increasing test levels question, I’m currently coming off TRT after a few years and essentially did an HCG mono therapy of 500IU EOD as part of pre PCT. got my results today and my test was over 600ng/dl and E2 low twenties.
On TRT and taking the standard 150mg/week test and 500IU twice weekly put my TT and E2 above reference range.
@Madagascarspirit - So, it’s quite clear that this huge T boost was from HCG which I was injecting 3 times/week. I am worried about bumping my Test too high to avoid gyno issues. Is 75mg/shot e3d for sust without HCG for now a good idea?
Everyone’s different and I’m not a doctor I can only inform you what I experienced. That’s worth bearing in mind here. If you don’t have gyno symptoms I wouldn’t worry too much. If you do have some anxiety over getting gyno just keep some Nolvadex to hand incase it’s required.
Personally I would dial in an amount of test that I can go with that doesn’t require an AI and take it from there. You can then add small changes one thing at a time when you have a protocol to fall back on.
For reference a common starting point “cookie cutter” sustanon protocol seems to be 125mg sustanon along with 0.5mg Adex every 5 days and HCG 500IU twice weekly.
There’s many ways to skin a cat. Only youll know how you feel with a certain level of E2.
Thanks. I was on daily shots of Sust(0.1ml). I didn’t like the daily pinning and so I switched to e3d at 62mg/shot. I will pause the AI for now. I will up the dosage to max 75mg/shot because I want to get a good libido and proper erection quality. Sust is such a complicated mix. So, hard to dial in.
Don’t you get injection pain? I could barely walk sometimes after the shot. It was the first protocol I had been prescribed so thought it was just normal from time to time haha. No issues with the other oils I’ve tried. Sus is so viscous!
I do but I am used to it now. And I use deep IM, so it is quite a pain. I just want to have that great sex drive and sex life. My body fat is at 15% and I am quite lean and muscular. I workout and my strength has been going off the roof. I wonder where is the sex drive and erection quality going? How long does it take to see any improvement after you adjust to a new protocol? Do you have any such experience?
I ran sustanon for about a year it wasn’t bad at all other than the injection pain. Good gains in the gym etc. It’s very tempting to inject more than necessary with a concentration that’s 250mg/ml though. I was enjoying the quick rate of progression in the gym and fell into the trap thinking more is better. Less can be more when it comes to TRT. Most will do great on 125mg of test per week. I actually felt great on 80mg test prop injecting every day with a half inch insulin pin.
Someone with high natural testosterone will produce ~10mg per day from their balls. That’s 70mg per week of pure test. To get the same amount exogenously you would take about 100mg cypionate to account for the ester loss. Point being, 200mg is overkill for most and can lead to excess E2 when coupled with HCG.
My erections were ok when I was on TRT.
Always good enough but sometimes I would feel that the extra 10% was missing which in itself doesn’t help erection quality. It’s hard to pin point why exactly. I always battled with E2 whenever I added HCG which has eventually led me try come of and see how I get on.
Prolactin has an impact on erection quality as does E2 and general mental health/anxiety etc.
I’d see changes within a week of a protocol change but with placebo effect so strong it’s impossible to know really.
The issue is getting any other Test other than Sust at my end. I am literally counting days to move back to the US. Until then, I have to stick to Sust. Just want to countercheck 75mg of sust is equal to 0.3 ml? Just getting my maths correct. Is 250 ius once a week for HCG good enough for fertility?
Sanity check…. If the concentration is 250mg/ml yes (250mg/ml)(0.3ml)=75mg
Not entirely sure. Some don’t even need it. Some are infertile before starting trt. Only one way to find out. Get semen analysis done.
@Madagascarspirit - Thank you once again. One last question. At any point during your TRT did you need to take any AI? If so how did you determine the right dosage of AI? And what is better between Adex and Nolva?
No problem at all.
I’ve always taken an AI other than the period below.
I started on the cookie cutter protocol mentioned previously.
I’ve pretty much taken 0.5mg every 4 or 5 days the full time on trt and still had values close to or over E2 reference range. The problem is the HCG for me. I moved to 0.25 e3d towards the end.
Arimidex which is a brand of Anastrozole stops testosterone being converted into E2 in the first place.
Nolvadex binds too the oestrogen receptor meaning free E2 floating about your body can’t bind hence can’t cause gyno.
You could say that Arimidex is proactive e2 management and Nolva is more of a reactive measure to combat gyno for instance.
@Madagascarspirit - For now I will pause on the AI. I will also pause on my HCG for the time being until I get my protocol dialed in. I will bump my dosage to 0.3ml/e3d and see how I feel. If I feel good despite my e2 being high then I will not put in any AI. I have done my fertility test several times and my sperm count is off the roof. I wonder without HCG, doesn’t it make someone infertile on TRT even if the person was fertile prior to TRT as the balls completely shut down?
That’s your call man. I told you want I did which was drop everything other than 100mg test and go from there changing one thing at a time. You obviously need more than 100mg as your Total T tanked as soon as you came off the HCG so it sounds as good a starting point as any. I suspect you’ll need to add an AI as your next move when you know what your E2 level is at that dose.
What was your Total T prior to TRT? I’m guessing you are secondary as your nuts clearly produce test and sperm ok.
I doubt you’d loose your fertility in the short term probably more likely the longer you went without HCG.
@Madagascarspirit - My total T prior to TRT was always between 500-550 ng/dl. I never did any steroids prior to that. This is my 1st year in TRT. One of the biggest benefits of being on TRT which is strange for me at my current levels is that I don’t feel fatigued/tired. Strength off the charts. I can train twice a day at 479ng/dl. Cognitive function is so damn good. The only issue is my dick which seems to be taking a hit. Additionally, something strange I noticed, my balls has not reduced in size at all even after I stopped HCG. Sperm count at my current levels is insane. I wonder where all these sperms are coming from! Also, I am getting shredded and my muscle mass is increasing with every passing month.
Maybe I’ve missed them but have you posted your SHBG and free T on this thread yet?
Maybe you don’t need HCG to keep your fertility. You probably only need a low dose if the nuts are already working well enough.
@Madagascarspirit - Actually haven’t tested my SHBG and free T off-late. I think I should measure those too. I have been focussing too much on Total T and E2
Wouldn’t be surprised if your SHBG is actually at the lower end and your free T is looking good that’s why you’ve got so much energy despite the lower Total T.
Keep it simple and you will rebound once your T levels go up. Personally I dont do so well with low or mid levels. When I run high T, Im always hard and ready for action. Its amazing. But I dont mess with anything. High E is not your problem. Low T is. Bump it up and dont stress about Gyno or other things that have been other people’s bad experience. I know we all want to use 100mg or less to be good to go, but that’ts not always the case. Just because someone parroted that 200mg/wk is a steroid cycle, so what? It could be what you need to feel good and perform as intended. Low SHBG is my only real problem, so I pin daily, and plenty so that I can function like the man I expect myself to be. Dont be afraid to bump it up for symptom resolution.