Bloodwork comes in at 1,500 Total Test but correct, technically I’m low on Test.
I’m not sure I would drop my test entirely. I’m thinking I add a low dose npp to my weekly protocol.
I can’t imagine how I’d feel without taking any test. I’ve been on for so long.
I just saw a thread on male excel that you were on. You were talking about your deca protocol.
I’m really curious, are you still feeling good?
I just started deca/npp this week. I took 100mg and 120mg test cyp. I’m planning on dropping the test real low and upping the nandrolone. I’m hoping to see some improvement cause I’ve had a slow and steady decline over the past 3 years libido wise.
It’s affected my life completely and I don’t think I could maintain any type of relationship like this. Sometimes it’s hard to gauge how bad someone else’s loss of libido really is. I feel like I’ve been a consistent 2/10 the past 2 years. Almost gone, little spurts here and there but very mild at best. I don’t see any hope in sight.
was yours like this? Or were you better off than me? Then you went on nandrolone and it got better?
There’s a bit to unpack here, but I’ll try to stick to sex-related issues and be as detailed as reasonable.
Before TRT → everything amazing. Libido/sensitivity/erections/orgasms all great.
On TRT → EVERYTHING was a disaster. Libido was a zero. Dick sensitivity was a zero. Erection quality was like a 2/10. Orgasms non-existent. It was miserable. Every time I would try a new drug (hCG, Mast, Proviron, Armour Thyroid, Caber) everything would be great for few weeks and then the effects would fade away. Libido was so bad, even Bimix didn’t work for me. Basically I had a medicine injected into my dick to get hard and the brain said “NOPE!”
After a year and a half of suffering on TRT, I decided to come off all AAS. While other side effects improved (anxiety, insomnia, blood pressure, joint inflammation), sexual side effects and acne did NOT improve. It was as if Test made permanent changes to my body. I was off AAS for 8 months until I realized I need to try something or else there’s no point going on living. I came across the Nand-only pages on here, excelmale and Reddit, and it provided me an option that was not Testosterone based. I had no choice but to try it.
Since May 2024, I’ve been on 150mg NPP and 1,000iu hCG. → I’ve played around with higher and lower doses and even added injectable e2, but for all intents and purposes, that was my dose. Libido and sensitivity are complicated, because they seem to go hand in hand. My desire for sex (libido) is back to normal, but my sensitivity is still very low. Maybe a 4/10. Because sensitivity is low, it’s almost impossible for me to have a spontaneous erection. I typically need to get myself started and it takes much more pressure than normal. Once I get hard, my erections are like a steel pipe 10/10 and can last practically forever. Also, because sensitivity is low, it takes forever to finish, and orgasms feel pretty dull. From what I read, this is pretty common on AAS.
The only thing I’m hoping I could fix is the dick sensitivity/orgasm intensity. Other than sex-related issues, I feel amazing on NPP. My blood pressure was high but is now taken care of with meds. Skin looks great. Sleeping great. No anxiety. Just feeling great overall. I don’t see myself ever touching Test again.
Great way to put it.
So I’m actually in a similar situation, except all my issues come from steroid use for bodybuilding purposes. I started young at around 22 and used them until I was 26. Each cycle was progressively getting higher doses, additional compounds and longer time span. When I was running test only cycles in the beginning, I was having zero dick issues until I would come off. On PCT I would just use viagra and that resolved that. When I was on, If anything, it was a heightened libido, which made cycling a ton of fun. Did a few that way and had great sex at that time.
but as time went on, I was adding new compounds, doing higher doses and longer cycles. I always attribute the start of my decline to when I first started messing with deca. Obviously I was doing higher doses like 500mg a week or more, I can’t remember but what I can tell you is that I experienced deca dick by the text book definition. Exactly how it’s described, is exactly what happened. You would be horny, ready for sex, you start and all of a sudden you go soft. I did take caber, but I think it wasn’t necessary. It didn’t prevent deca dick like I thought it would. It actually tanked my prolactin.
Although I had deca dick, I would use low doses cialis and all was good I had great sex at the time. After the deca cycle, I cruised on 200mg test and again, good sex with the help of a small dose of cialis.
Now this is where things really got bad. I then went on a hard cycle of test, tren enth and anadrol. I had unbearable raging libido. Deca dick issues persisted with tren, since tren had the same effect, but with a little cialis I was a sex machine. I was huge in the gym and I was having great sex with my ex.
I did another cruise and went back on tren, but this time on tren ace. Ace is definitely more intense, and from a bodybuilding standpoint its great. I was incredibly power and always on go mode. But after 3-4 weeks on ace, something weird happened. I had libido, but cialis and viagra COMPLETELY stopped working. It was inexplicable. I would take it, and literally impossible to get an erection. So I decided to stop taking tren after 6 weeks but I kept the test. I figured with test my libido would be fine, since it always was. But as time went on, I still could not get hard, even with PDE5s.
So now obviously I panicked, and decided to quit steroids completely (I was starting to move on from bodybuilding anyways). So I did an intense PCT and was completely off for a year and a half. I never recovered my test, the damage was too far gone. I had zero ability for sex and the depression/insecurity was unbearable. Like you said, I thought there was no point in living like this, so I decided to go on TRT for life. I really did not want to, because I hate steroids and regret ever getting into it, but if that’s what it’s gonna take to live a decent life, I’ll do it
I went on self prescribed trt and it immediately helped. I truly thought that I would never be able to have sex again, because for so long I endured zero ability to get hard no matter what. I wasn’t sure if test would even work, but when I got on trt, with cialis and viagra i was able to have a functioning sex life. I met a girl at the time and life got much better. I still had ED (needed viagra) but just a little bit had me rock hard. And I would get super horny. There were days where I wasn’t that horny, but that was fine, because to me the fact that I could have sex again was good enough. It’s been about 5 years but little by little the libido has been diminishing. This past year it’s almost non existent. And when I do have sex, it takes about a week in between to muster up enough libido to actually desire sex. It’s never a strong libido but it can get the job done.
Obviously I can’t have a good relationship like that. I’m single at 32 years old and it’s going to be hard to find a girl who would be ok with sex once in a while. Nor do I want that either.
I’m hesitant on the Deca because it started all my issues. But I’m at the **** it stage. Even if it kills me in 10 years, I rather enjoy my life while I can. I’ll literally try anything at this point. So I’m going to try the deca protocol. I’m going to bring test done super low and up the deca a bit. I always take hcg and will continue to do so.
Thanks for being clear in your explanation. Sometimes it’s hard to truly understand how bad it is for the other person on a forum when they post success with a compound. We have a different back story, but had the same problems while on testosterone. Hopefully deca gives me a different effect like it did for you. I haven’t done it in forever and this is an interesting approach that sounds promising.
I’m not looking to be a raging horny beast, nor to be able to get hard without PDE5s, I’m just looking to have a decent sex life. I’ll be able to manage with that.
Gentlemen, I want to give an update on my EV experiment. It’s been a long and arduous journey since I started TRT 3.5 years ago, but there may be a light at the end of the tunnel for me, and it don’t know if it’s e2 related.
There’s a lot to unpack, but I’ll try to keep this short but detailed. I’ve been on NPP for the past year and a half because I had a garbage time on Test. While I felt MUCH better on NPP than Test, libido issues still persisted. I’ve been able to have sex, but it’s been mostly pleasureless with reduced libido, sensitivity and orgasm intensity.
From May 2024 to May 2025, I was on 150mg NPP and 1000iu hCG weekly. While my bloodwork looked mostly great, e2 was obviously in the dumps because NPP barely aromatizes. It was clear that hCG wasn’t working for me, and my doctor agreed. (Even though it did nothing for me in the sex department, I’ve been taking hCG this entire time because I do get mental benefits from it.) As mentioned above, I felt great in every way except when it came to sexual factors.
May 2025, I added estradiol to my protocol (first sublingual, then oral, and finally injections). To keep it simple, let’s just say I was injecting 4mg/week for the past 6 months. While there was an improvement in my bloodwork (e2 went from effectively 0 to normal 1:20 proportion to TT), other than the first few weeks, I got no improvement in sexual issues from adding EV. Even though I didn’t FEEL any improvement, I continued injecting EV simply to maintain healthy levels in my blood.
A little over a month ago, things got interesting. Maybe it was the gummy I took, but I was playing with my injection kit one Sunday night, and instead of doing my usual pinch-and-pull-the-belly-skin (SubQ), I decided to inject hCG by just stabbing myself in the abs (Shallow IM). Over the next few days, all sexual side effects resolved themselves. Testicles reinflated to full size, sensitivity returned to normal, orgasms were euphoric again, and I was shooting semi-normal loads.
I continued injecting hCG IM ever since and things have stayed the same. I’m not a religious man, but I’m PRAYING this isn’t just another honeymoon. This is the first time in 3 years that I feel like I’m getting the TRT experience everyone talks about. I went to get bloodwork this past Monday, and I’ll keep y’all posted when the results come in.
To summarize, my issue was:
NPP + hCG SubQ = Feeling good. Low e2. Sexual sides.
NPP + hCG SubQ + EV = Feeling good. Healthy e2. Sexual sides.
NPP + hCG IM + EV = Feeling good. Healthy e2. No sexual sides.
It makes me sick to think that I’ve been struggling on this libido roller coaster for 3.5 years simply because I’ve been injecting hCG a few millimeters too shallow than I should’ve been. I’ve spoken to several doctors over the years, and they all said there shouldn’t be a difference between SubQ and IM; as long as it gets into the body it’ll be absorbed. So, I continued injecting SubQ because I was used to it. However, after this recent experience, I started searching on Reddit and learned that many guys feel a HUGE difference between SubQ and IM. Now I’m starting to wonder if I was feeling shitty on Test because I was doing THAT SubQ as well!
So for those still struggling to get dialed in, the method of injection might be one more thing to consider changing besides different hormones, dosages and frequencies.
Interesting. I also have issues with low/lower e2. Usually caused by supplements, b vitamins, tadalafil.. I am on a decent amount of testosterone as well, but still have lower e2. I take 270 a week, and i take between 1000-1500iu of HCG a week, but still have problems with lower e2. Mainly i feel it in my joints, i have had this problem for so long now that i know when my e2 is low, just by feel. My knees start burning/hurting, joints painful, tendons in forearms very painful… May start injecting my HCG IM and see if this helps.
Oh, i also take Estradiol 2mg, sometimes up to 6mg a day, if i get into to far a low E2 feeling.
Holy wow. What’s your TT/FT/E2 look like on this?
Interestingly, my TT/FT have appeared to be trending DOWN, even while raising my weekly injection total.
On these doses, my TT is usually between 800-1100, FT is either, just below top of the range, or at the top of the range and my E2 is always low end of normal.
I posted about this phenomenon a while ago asking for advice. My free T and Total T were higher on 200mg of test, TT was usually 1100-1200 and Free T was always slightly above top of the range. When i went up to 270, my TT and Free T went down, slightly, but still down, which was slightly concerning/puzzling. Always pharmaceutical grade test, same injection frequency, do not miss doses. Some people speculated that possibly having more androgen receptors were “soaking up” the test, leaving less to be read in the blood.. Not sure if that is even possible or how that works. But i have no other explanation…. any thoughts?
Wow I wish I had some ideas brother. That’s puzzling for sure. What did your pre TRT labs look like? I wonder if you have some sort of aromatase deficiency. I’m pretty sure it’s NOT that because those folks with a rare deficiency have physical developmental problems. It’s very rare anyway. You just don’t seem to aromatize much though.
Pre TRT, my total test was approx 500 or so, and my e2 was always in the more “normal” range, but my SHBG was literally sucking up all of my test, it was always in the 50-60s, so my Free test was low (even by the lab value standard, literally 1 point below). This is when something strange started to happen. I was started out on 100mg a week, which barely raised my values, but i began to have HORRIBLE low e2 symptoms. I could NOT figure out what was going on. Dry skin, low mood, low libido, horrible fatigue, aching joints. My knees “burned” and were so painful i could barely walk. This went on for months, and i was horribly depressed, believing i would never be able to have a normal life, never be able to ride a bike with my kid. I could NOT figure out what was going on. Essentially, anything that COULD or POTENTIALLY lower e2, was lowering it. In the first case, i figured out it was Vitamin D. I did a bunch of research and read how high dose of vitamin D was being used for women with breast cancer, to lower e2. So I did an experiment. I completely stopped vitamin D for a month and then took my E2, and other labs. Once i had those values, i took Vitamin D at 5k a day for 2 weeks, and then tested E2 again. It halved my e2 values, in 2 weeks, and i had symptoms again.
After that happened, i would periodically get the low e2 joint pain, and would realize.. I just started taking melatonin (lowers aromatase), I drank a pre workout with a TON of B vitamins (increases livers metabolism of estrogen).. and so on and so on.. I have a list of everything that has affected my e2. Ill post what i remember.
Vitamin D, Melatonin, B Vitamins, NAC, Calcium D Glucarate. (ill try and remember more and add to the list if i can. But currently, I get low e2 from Tadalafil, which lowers aromatase expression i believe… Either way, Tadalafil has been such a positive for my BP, vascularity, and just quality of life. So i am trying to figure out how to keep taking it, without crashing my E2. Currently only take approx 6mg three times a week, and i still have problems. Not sure what it is about exogenous test that made this issue present itself, as I never had these issues before, and i regularly consumed energy drinks with B Vitamins, and took Vitamin D. It only started after i began TRT.
Either way, i try and get e2 in tablet form, when i can, to help counter this problem, but its inconsistent. Luckily i have never had high blood values from ANY amount of test, and my provider is willing to RX me 300 a week, but I asked him to keep me at 250 (squeeze out 270 with overfill) a week. I think mainly its my liver that is flushing what little E2 i have, and on top of that, anything that affects aromatase lowers whatever E2 I would have in the first place. Sucks.
Provider willing to prescribe you injectable estradiol you can draw with your Testosterone injections?
I am definitely going to bring it up at my next appointment.
Hey @ForrestChump i think I’m in a similar boat as you. Quick background. I was diagnosed with hypogonadism almost 2 years ago by my pcp (had t levels around 200-300 tt) and put on t gel. I did the gel for around 6 months and didn’t feel good on it. My estradiol was actually elevated in the mid 50s. I figured estrogen was my problem.
So I went to a clinic and tried Kyzatrex oral testosterone. On low dose it felt like I wasn’t on trt (had bad joint pain/low energy and libido) on high dose gave me anxiety. Estradiol was around 10 on the low dose and 20 on the high dose.
Fast forward to a few months ago I switched to enclo and lasted a couple days before I tapped out. It made me extremely panicky and weepy. I went to my pcp and agreed to get off trt for a while.
I’m calmer now and feel better in that regard. But I’m back to my low energy and low libido pre trt self. My joints are in horrible shape. My left knee is intermittently extremely painful, to the point I’m seeing an orthopedist (waiting on mri results of my knee).
I just had my estradiol tested and it’s 10 (total tt 250). I have a theory that my problems are actually more so low estradiol than testosterone. Of course my t levels should be higher, but the ratio is off for me. My estradiol was elevated with t gel and my knee pain was better. I think my problems with the gel were actually massive swings in estradiol and testosterone across the day…I was having bad hot flashes.
To finish up, I have acquired 2mg estradiol tablets to split up and try. I want to see if they help my joints and improve my mood. Have you tried it out yet? Any dosage suggestions to get from 10 to mid 20s? Maybe .5mg? I’m also wondering if it causes dependence. If you take it for a couple weeks and then stop, what happens?
In the future I plan to try every day or every other day subq t injections.
Sub Q was underwhelming for me, i believe it also contributed to lower E2. I would skip that and go straight to shallow IM. For the E2 pills, i couldnt tell you, i would probably start with 2mg a day, that seems to be what others are taking. I dont take them daily, i only take them when i feel like my E2 is going low.
Few points of interest for anyone else following this thread.
Found out Modafanil was also lowering my E2, Modafanil is an inducer of the p450 enzyme Cyp3a4 (specifically) which is responsible for the first stage of metabolism in the liver, which also… metabolizes hormones.. Meaning e2 (test also for that matter)..
Got me on a deep dive. I wonder how many people are taking medications or other inducers that are increasing their P450/Cyp3a4 enzymes, which in turn lowers your E2. I went on a whole deep dive. Found all the inducers, substrates and inhibitors of p450 enzymes.
Grapefruit juice is commonly advised against with certain medications because it can reduce the P450 enzyme, and some medications can increase to dangerous levels.. This was something i was possibly going to look into to help me stop flushing my estrogen. I have not tried this yet.
Another option i looked into was IM HCG instead of sub Q. While researching, i found a few people WITH actual labs that showed their numbers DOUBLED with IM injections. Another study showed blood levels of HCG increased, but it did not affect LH, FSH or T (compared to sub Q).. However, I read a few people stating that HCG IM made their E2 go way out of control, and from the labs i was able to recover, it is apparent why. So now i am injecting my HCG IM, only 1 shot in (the UG lab i use unfortunately causes some PIP, unlike pharma) so i do not yet know how it will affect my levels, but i am hoping this is an “easier” fix for my low E2 issues. Hope this helps someone.
Thanks, I will consider IM. From what I’ve read 2mg is a transgender starting dose. So that seems risky. I guess if you just take one every once in a while you will be fine. I think I have to try like .5mg.
You can read the posts above, i think 2mg was the lowest i saw people using, and there were quite a few using more.. Play around with it, get labs