[quote]HK24719 wrote:
Airtruth wrote:
HK24719 wrote:
Chalky09Aus wrote:
Sprints superior to steady state jogging for fat loss keeping muscle? have you found that also?
/Hijack
on topic yeah i have felt what you are talking about, I would hazard a guess that the sprints produce more lactic acid (especially repeat sprints) and if you’re going straight home after your done then the lactic acid will set in and take up to 24-36hrs to be fully eliminated.
Try walking a decent distance breathing deep and properly, the aerobic use of oxygen helps the body to eliminate lactic acid it just got from sustained exercise above anaerobic threshhold.
It’s now widely accepted that lactic acid doesn’t cause soreness.
It doesn’t DIRECTLY cause it, but it still contributes.
High rep squat is what 20…30 squats, with a weight you can do more than 10 times which means you do not need a maximum contraction…
Sprint is roughly 40 - 60 strides which = 20 - 30 maximal contractions PER LEG… You do the math.
If you wanted to do a leg workout that could even come close you would have to do, walking lunges possibly a step up with a decent weight and every step of the lunge contract as hard as you can even if it causes you to jump in the air. This would be hell on the knees.
Your response doesn’t have anything to do with lactate or lactic acid.[/quote]
But it DOES have to do with the Original question.
This is an inane thread. Apples and oranges is the best way to sum up the comparison of sprints to weightlifting.
Different fiber types? Why are you even bothering getting into this…irrelevant discussion of a trivial point.
High force tasks=high threshold motor unit recruitment (type II fibers). There are so many other factors at play here to discriminate the exercises, ROM of the muscle, different joint angles, different loading rates, different neural discharge rates, different cross-bridge cycling rates, different agonist-antagonist muscle patterns…
So no, other fiber types don’t come out of the woodwork during sprints.
I’m sure lactic acid has a little to do with it, but I have done 25rep squats and 25rep presses to a point where I felt my legs were going to explode from lactic acid build up and still did not feel the same DOMS that I felt a few days ago after sprints. Wow, almost 5 days and I am still a little sore. I’m going to head to the park again tomorrow and do the exact same thing as before 5X100 with the same intensity and let you know on Saturday how the DOMS is.
I can tell you right now that it won’t be half as bad as the first time around, lactic acid or not. My legs are going to adapt to what I put them through the first time around. The question is, What caused the pain the first time around that other resistance exercises did not? Lactic acid may be an issue to a small degree, but from what others are saying, It’s probably a combination of many different things as mentioned above.
Your individual pain threshold perhaps? The sensitivity of your type III and IV neurons…the sensitivity of the nociceptive neurons at the level of the spinal cord…the way your brain processes pain…the way you psychologically interpret pain…
It could be any fucking thing.
Who gives a shit…focussing on pain is irrelevant unless there is injury, or the pain is chronic.
What you are describing has no relevance for anything and makes this thread exactly that. Irrelevant.
Sprinting? Why the fuck is this even in the bodybuilding forum anyway?
i just always thought that with sprinting your doing more units of work in a shorter given amount of time. with squats you may be pushin more weight but your only doing x amount of reps for each leg which take you about 3 seconds each.
Looks like the princple of training density made clear by vince gironda.
[quote]GluteusGigantis wrote:
Your individual pain threshold perhaps? The sensitivity of your type III and IV neurons…the sensitivity of the nociceptive neurons at the level of the spinal cord…the way your brain processes pain…the way you psychologically interpret pain…
It could be any fucking thing.
Who gives a shit…focussing on pain is irrelevant unless there is injury, or the pain is chronic.
What you are describing has no relevance for anything and makes this thread exactly that. Irrelevant.
Sprinting? Why the fuck is this even in the bodybuilding forum anyway? [/quote]
[quote]JohnConnor wrote:
i just always thought that with sprinting your doing more units of work in a shorter given amount of time. with squats you may be pushin more weight but your only doing x amount of reps for each leg which take you about 3 seconds each.
Looks like the princple of training density made clear by vince gironda.[/quote]
What? This doesn’t even make sense.
Power output is higher during weightlifting.
Made clear by Gironda?? Some random guru I don’t know about and clearly don’t need to give a shit about…
Every time your foot impacts the ground during a sprint, your muscles undergo quick and powerful eccentric contractions. If you’re not used to sprinting of course this will make you sore.
[quote]JohnConnor wrote:
i just always thought that with sprinting your doing more units of work in a shorter given amount of time. with squats you may be pushin more weight but your only doing x amount of reps for each leg which take you about 3 seconds each.
Looks like the princple of training density made clear by vince gironda.[/quote]
You just can’t compare two entirely different movements this way, it isn’t nearly as accurate. Within the same movement, maybe there’s some merit, Idk I haven’t kept up with Gironda’s writings in a long time.
[quote]GluteusGigantis wrote:
JohnConnor wrote:
i just always thought that with sprinting your doing more units of work in a shorter given amount of time. with squats you may be pushin more weight but your only doing x amount of reps for each leg which take you about 3 seconds each.
Looks like the princple of training density made clear by vince gironda.
What? This doesn’t even make sense.
Power output is higher during weightlifting. [/quote]
It depends on what time interval you are talking about.
Work done per 10 or 20 seconds (let’s say we are talking about 100 or 200 meters) is I think greater in sprinting than in any weightlifting exercise, including Olympic lifts.
I say that based on greater oxygen debt being incurred.
Now, if somehow one could do the concentrics of the Olympic lifts continuously with no gap between them, then I expect it would be possible to do more total work in 10 or 20 seconds with the lifts than with sprinting. But that cannot be done.
You cannot compare the two movements. Since you seem to argue that one movement gives you much DOMS, which you perceive as a good thing, you want to know how to “improve” the squat to reap the same effect.
The combination of squats with sprints (def. start with less intensity) is awesome. But it is because these movements are so different.
Hvy Squatting involves one bilateral movement breaking roughly through one vector of resistace.
Sprinting, on the other hand, involves dynamic unilateral explosivness for both sides of the body, facing multiple minor vectors of res. as well as a major one, all at the same time. It is also a new stimulus for you, placed on top of your usual routine.
[quote]ekrim wrote:
Every time your foot impacts the ground during a sprint, your muscles undergo quick and powerful eccentric contractions. If you’re not used to sprinting of course this will make you sore. [/quote]
I feel more of an eccentric contraction when jogging more than I do when sprinting because there is actually less of an impact. When sprinting, it feels more like a gliding motion without the impact. I think it’s more of the concentric power contraction that creates the soreness along with not being used to it of course. Like many have said before, We can’t really compare the 2, but I do know that sprints will now be part of my routine from here on out.
There was an EXCELLENT article of glute workouts about 2 weeks ago here at T-Nation. Amongst other things, he says Squats are vertical plane movements, while the other moves he shows (bridges, hip thrusts, etc.) and SPRINTING are horizontal plane movements. Makes sense to me. Sprints really do work out the butt, and his exercise protocol to. Try it! It’s really weird being sore in all the butt muscles!
Warning: you have developed a good amounts of strength and power in your legs, so go easy at first with sprints, as you might tax a few muscles not used to such high output.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Work done per 10 or 20 seconds (let’s say we are talking about 100 or 200 meters) is I think greater in sprinting than in any weightlifting exercise, including Olympic lifts.
[/quote]
I agree, but I think with different reasoning.
Sprints are unique in that they blend a medium-hard plyometric with continuous effort, and they are (mostly) total body. Speed-strength movements require more power than any other type of movement, but there really aren’t too many weightroom exercises that fall into that category except for Olympic lifts which aren’t a sustained effort.
To the OP, level of soreness is not always a great indicator of effectiveness. Remember that sprinters lift as well, so sprints aren’t the only contributing factor for their leg development. Also, most sprinters are genetically predisposed to having strong legs in general. Mostly I am not envious of most sprinters’ leg size anyway as I am their level of leanness.
Sprints can be used as a tool for getting faster (duh) or a tool for conditioning and fat loss, each with their own programming methodology.
Ok everyone who is arguing about lactic acid and soreness: pick up a damn exercise physiology textbook! Lactic acid does NOT cause muscle soreness. Lactic acid causes muscle fatigue. When you are doing high rep squats and your legs begin to feel like jello and you can barely walk, that is the effect of lactic acid. DOMS are caused by the breakdown of muscle tissue. If you are reading these forums you should already know that muscle is damaged when you lift weights, when it repairs itself, it tends to get bigger (hypertrophy). This is why often muscle soreness is indicative of a good workout.
The reason you tend to get sore from sprints the first time is because you are not accustomed to the amount of force that is used doing sprints. F=MxA. Since you are doing a primarily unilateral movement, all of your mass is being supported by one leg, and the force is being applied through one leg. This is equivalent to doing a squat with your body weight on your shoulders. However, the acceleration is much greater during a sprint, than it is during the squat. Since F=MA, and acceleration is much greater, and the mass is likely close to the same, there is more force produced.
And finally, the volume is much greater. Over 100 meters, you are probably taking between 35-50 strides depending on your stride length. You did this for 5 sprints, so between 175-250 reps, divide this by two (since you have two legs) and you will have done between 87-125 reps of explosive squats with your body weight on your shoulders.