Squat Depth and Knee Problems?

lbh110 · August 23, 2007, 12:06am

Well thanks for the responses, as much as the post may be stupid I feel a lot more confidant going deep now.

This is one of the best resources online for me to learn about lifting. I’m certainly not learning anything from the local douche bags at the gym I go to

that being said you can drop the thread or delete it, I don’t see how this sort of topic can really annoy anyone so much nor do I see anything actually being debated it seems to me that everyone is in agreement that I should grow a pair and go ATG which tommorow I’ll give a shot

Kreal7 · August 23, 2007, 12:07am

[quote]romanaz wrote:

I’m just basing this on what I’ve read from a reputable study and from my own experience.

[/quote]

I usually hear something different from people who know biomechanics quite well. I’m not saying the people in the study don’t, I’d just like to see what their conclusion was. I don’t know what to think anymore beacuse I read a lot of different opinions. This is what I usually hear:

The forces are equal everywhere if the angle between your torso and upper leg is the same as the angle between your upper and lower leg.

Anyone want to chime in on this?

I’ve also heard from several people who have their DPT to not squat ever, one which has helped me with all my problems. All the stuff he has showed me has kept me healthy. I know everyone is going to say you must squat, so you don’t even need to post it.

I know in a lot of biomechanics classes they do a squatting lab, unfortunately that is probably next year for me. Anyone ever done one of these labs?

Roman - If you can find the page it would be nice if you could post it. Thanks ahead of time.

Koing · August 23, 2007, 12:13am

[quote]SprinterOne wrote:
I think most of the knee problems people have from squatting comes from the knees going way forward over their toes and/or their knees coming in. You can certainly go below parallel and not hurt your knees. Just focus on A) sitting back not down and B) pushing your knees out through the entire lift.[/quote]

[quote]romanaz wrote:
do you have knee problems? If no, then go as LOW as you can go.

Its been shown that ATG is safer then parallel, but parallel is safer then a 1/4 squat.

try not to let your toes go over your knees, IF your wearing flat soled shoes.

ATG your glutes stop the motion, parallel ur knees stop it.

Ever wonder why more PL’ers blow their knees out then OL?[/quote]

Whats with all of this not letting the knees go over your toes? Do you guys actually walk or run? Your knees go over your toes.

You are fine to do this. There is no issue about your knees going out over your toes. If your flexible it will happen. I’d be more concerned with the outrageous leaning forwards…

[quote]Irish Muscle wrote:
going atg will make your knees strong provided you build up the weight gradually to make sure you let your tendons adapt. people who pile on the wieght as soon as they lose their virginity to the squat rack always are at high risk of injuring their knees because their knees arent prepared for it even though their muscles might be.

its even worse if they dont go below parrallel. some one mentioned that the stress is highest above or at parrallel. i agree with that. i never feel anything on my knees when i go below parrelel, actually, i only feel it on my tear drops ( top of the quads)

powerliftrs dont hurt their knees if they train heavy with weights they can handle.

using heavy weights wil not damage your knees unless your sacrificing your form to get the bar moving.

when the wiehgt is too heavy for the lifter some of them lean a bit forward while they are down in the hole to add some momentum to get out of the hole. this is the kind of stuff that damages knees.

also people who use knee wraps are more prone to damaging their knees as the stress of the lift is taken away from the knee. then when they start squating raw agin, if they dont gradualy go heavy, they wil injure their knee because its weak.

going below parrallell strengthens the knee, and the heavier you can go, the stronger your knee will get provided you use proper form and go below parralal. going just to parallel or above it will fuck your knees up no doubt. there is a load of stress and you are using your knee to stop the weight from going down.

atg raw squats = bullet proof knees.
[/quote]

I agree on you with everything!

Just squat properly and go to your correct depth. PL = go parallel, OL = ATG. Build the weights up and you will be fine. You condition your muscles, joints, tendons etc to GET USE to the weight your using. Most people are thick and do not grasp this concept…go too heavy too early = you get f0cked
Crash down hard to get a bounce off the bottom = you get f0cked

Some OLifters knees come in as they are weak. They aren’t strong enough at limit weights to not have their knees come in. They can do it with text book form with 10% less weight. But at limit weights some lifters aren’t as strong as others. No real big issue. At lighter weights it is good but your just not strong enough.

Koing

Shadowzz4 · August 23, 2007, 12:39am

[quote]Hanley wrote:
Shadowzz4 wrote:

And Hanley, Powerlifters blow out their knees more often than olympic lifters because olympic lifters by the nature of the sport peak at weight they cannot move rapidly. Powerlifters peak at weight they cannot move period!!! Additionally, Olympic lifters have to concentrically move the weight first, so chances are they are not even going to get up a weight so heavy it will injure them. Powerlifting, when squatting and benching, is dangerous because you start the movement with the weight at the top of the motion, so you can lower the weight but its kindof a toss up whether it will come back up. Deadlifts are different because it is more like olympic lifting in that you have to concentrically move the weight first.

So you agree with my post that the reason powerlifters blow out their knees more often because they use heavier weights?

Having competed in both it’s not a shot at O-Lifters. It’s just how it is.

Look at the recent trend in clean recoverys where lifters PURPOSELY let their knees drift as they ascend so their quads can help more. Try doing that with maximum weights and you’d be fucked.

Lets face it, olympic lifters don’t need to ever take max or even near max back squat attempts because it just isn’t the limiting factor.

Spend 6 months looking for a 5kg squat increase, or 6 months on form work… Which will most likely give better carryover?[/quote]

Lets face it. All squats are not the same. Its like comparing apples and oranges. A max powerlifting squat usually is biomechanically just close enough to a what an actual squat is to pass the grade, just deep enough etc… Then you have O lifters who are going ass to grass, not because they want to practice great form but because they have to do it to get the weight up.

So what I am saying is powerlifters blow out their knees more often because they use weights not that are just heavy, but are too heavy, and since you are starting eccentrically you wont know if it is too heavy until you cant get out of the hole, your leg snaps in half, your knee blows out, you herniate a disc…ya know…the usual. And like I said, since the sport is based on the worst form for the three major lifts, you get alot of injuries in the two lifts that start eccentrically.

Shadowzz4 · August 23, 2007, 12:42am

And the whole let your knees go over your toes or not is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. The knee position in relation to the toes can be a useful cue sometimes but it is not one the ten commandments. Here is an example. I am 6’4" with a size 15 shoe. My friend is 6’5" with a size 12 1/2 shoe. Our legs are about the same length. Hmm, feet are different lengths did anyone think of that? Fucking stupid shit man.

BigBen72 · August 23, 2007, 5:08am

[quote]Hanley wrote:
BigBen72 wrote:
apwsearch wrote:
I am absofuckinlutely amazed this post got this much attention.

If I had a one hundred dollars for every time some dumbass came up to us with shit like that I could retire.

Fuck, about a year ago some beanpole trainer came up to us and told us he, “noticed we arched our backs when we bench,” and was about to fill us full of some shit about hurting our backs. I just cut him off and basically told him don’t even talk to us about crap like that.

The statement this woman is making is basically so fucking stupid it doesn’t even warrant a post let alone the number of responses it has gotten.

For fucks sake people, the fact this is even being debated around here is depressing.

That is a poor attitude. You never know when you will learn something new, even in a discussion of something basic like squat depth.

I’d be pretty sure he knows alot more than you think.
[/quote]

I’m pretty sure I know a lot more than you think.

Does that mean I shouldn’t listen to someone when they talk about squat depth? Absolutely not. I don’t know everything, and neither does anyone else on this site. When you enter a situation with the attitude that you can’t learn something from someone simply because what they are talking about is ‘too basic’ or because they haven’t been training as long as you, you have lost an opportunity to learn.

Even if you don’t learn anything, you can reaffirm what you already knew, maybe pass on a little knowledge to someone in need of it, and maybe gain a fresh perspective on the topic.

ChuckyT · August 23, 2007, 3:41pm

[quote]Shadowzz4 wrote:

Lets face it. All squats are not the same. Its like comparing apples and oranges. A max powerlifting squat usually is biomechanically just close enough to a what an actual squat is to pass the grade, just deep enough etc… Then you have O lifters who are going ass to grass, not because they want to practice great form but because they have to do it to get the weight up.

So what I am saying is powerlifters blow out their knees more often because they use weights not that are just heavy, but are too heavy, and since you are starting eccentrically you wont know if it is too heavy until you cant get out of the hole, your leg snaps in half, your knee blows out, you herniate a disc…ya know…the usual. And like I said, since the sport is based on the worst form for the three major lifts, you get alot of injuries in the two lifts that start eccentrically.
[/quote]

This post actually caused me physical pain.

Dominator · August 23, 2007, 8:15pm

[quote]Kreal7 wrote:
romanaz wrote:

Its been shown that ATG is safer then parallel, but parallel is safer then a 1/4 squat.

Where did you see the study that states ATG is safer than just going to parallel?[/quote]

The research that is circulating with regard to squat depth and knee flexion has used either cadavers or has used “non-athletes” as test subjects.

The data supporting full depth was done with cadavers applying force to the knee joint at varying angles. They found that the knee was most suspect at 90 degrees and strongest at 120 degrees. This isn’t anything earth shaking as far as a finding…it’s logical that 90 degrees is the weakest point because that happens to be the point where the ligament is easily manipulated (Drawers test for ACL). It’s hardest to manipulate at 120…again, pretty logical because it’s hard to manipulate the joint with your knee fully flexed.

The flaw in the study is that it was a cadaver test, and we don’t know the factors of the sex, strength of tendon and ligament, age, etc…theres just too much unknown variables to hanf on to this study as an absolute.

Now, what we do know is that shear force is highest between 60-90 degrees of flexion. It then drops substantially 90 and lower because a shear force can’t move upwards.

Bottom line is this…there hasn’t been any structural research with high level athletes yet, and to my knowledge, I don’t see this happening in the near future mainly because I don’t see any athletes giving up their health in the hopes of potentially bettering scientific knowledge. Until this happens, any research out there is sort of irrelevant because it doesn’t apply to “real world” subjects. The truth is that there may never be a definitive answer on this topic.

Dominator · August 23, 2007, 8:28pm

[quote]romanaz wrote:
Kreal7 wrote:
romanaz wrote:

Its been shown that ATG is safer then parallel, but parallel is safer then a 1/4 squat.

Where did you see the study that states ATG is safer than just going to parallel?

I will search for it and post it when I find it again, I’m sure I have it bookmarked somewhere but I’m at work right now.

But just think about it, the biomechanics of the area and all of it. When you slow down and stop just a parallel, its all in the knees. Sure the muscles contract to stop you, but most of the stress from it is on the knees, where the tendons and ligaments are being pulled and tightened to stop.

When you squat ATG and sit back properly (which most people can’t do w/o a heeled shoe), all the stress is shifted to the glutes and/or hamstrings.

Plus, in my personal experience, after starting to squat PL style, really wide and sitting far back and keeping the knees behind/over the middle of my foot, I ended up injuring the knee, and coming down with tendinitis.

I took a month vacation from lifting (because I got tendinitis in my wrist from benching), I started training for OL, and my knees and wrist haven’t hurt since. If anything, my knees are a lot strong from squatting lower.

I’m just basing this on what I’ve read from a reputable study and from my own experience.

And Hanley, OL might use less then their true grind out 1RM for squats, but we also squat a LOT faster then PL. PL is under tension for a longer time generally that would put even more stress on everything. [/quote]

Having competed in both sports, I can tell you that part of the reason you don’t hear about OLs hurting their knees is because absolute squat strength for one is sort of irrelevant and two they can always squat more than what they are attempting at both Clean and Clean and Jerk. That can’t be said for PLs, especially the geared ones because it’s very common place to attempt a weight that you’ve never trained with in competition, that and the fact the PLs lift more on the squat than OLs.

Also, another factor with OLs is that the elite guys seem to have genetic attributes that allow them to be great OLs. For example, when tested, the size and tensile strength of their tendons is greater than others tested. Their bone density in the spine is thicker etc. It may be a situation of the training over time has allowed the body to develope these qualities, but at the same time, they could have been born with it…we don’t know. Again, having competed, I can say that my own personal biomechanics are what stopped me from getting better, it wasn’t a lack of strength or even reaching the top end of my strength.

Bottom line is this…if you train long and hard enough at OLing, you’ll find that your knees will bug you just as stopping at 90 degrees. When you train 10-12 times a week and squat each and everyone of those days, your knees will bug you, even if that technique is perfect.

Dominator · August 23, 2007, 8:54pm

[quote]lbh110 wrote:
so I was squating at the gym the other day, going just below parallel, a distance I thought appropriate to stimulate muscle and develop strength when a older woman approached me and asked if I was a physical trainer or have studied anything of the sort. I told her I’ve just read an awful lot and consider myself well versed in the excersize. She proceded to tell me she has a phD in excersize physiology and she has heard of many people tearing up the cartilidge in their knees from going too low.

I’ve seen two other people squat at my gym, one a friend who has also heard of knee problems and goes to just above parallel and the other some random dude who has a 2" ROM other wise the rack gets used as a curl machine as mentioned in another tread on here

As a result of her conversation I’ve started squating to just above parallel. I’m not a powerlifter however I would like to compete at some point or another…

would you guys call me lame for not going below parallel? should I go lower in hopes of powerlifting in the future?
anyone else afraid of knee problems

[/quote]

From my experience, the issue with knee pain/injury and squatting has more to do with the individuals lever system than the depth of the squat.

If a person has a long femur and a short tibia, squatting is probably going to stress the knees, but if a person has a short femur and a long tibia, squatting will be pain free.

That said, the other thing I notice is that people who shift their weight of their foot onto the front half of the foot while squatting will feel more pain in the knee. The ones that can keep the weight shifted the whole time on the heels seem to be less prone to knee pain. The weight shift has a lot to do with posterior chain strength, and the ones that have little posterior strength seem to shift more to the toes while squatting. The longer femur people seem to benefit by a wider stance, ie Powerlifting stance, while the longer tibia people seem to have no issues either way

Flexibility in the hips will play a big role with how one keeps their weight distributed on the foot. Tight hips will cause the person to lean forward, and that will shift the weight onto the toes causing both knee and back pain.

The reality is that squatting isn’t for everyone, and that there isn’t an absolute one way is better for all approach…the trick is finding what works with your lever system, strength, and flexibility ranges.

Hanley · August 23, 2007, 9:25pm

[quote]Dominator wrote:
romanaz wrote:
Kreal7 wrote:
romanaz wrote: