Squat and Deads Stance: Pro/Con

A little info… Former skinny bastard (nothing related to WSFSB, though I wish I had known about it when I was reading men’s health before I knew that was a con…) and have found myself becoming stronger and stronger and finally moving some heavy shit for once in my live…

anyway…

I recently (6 mo. ago) starting learning more about generating power in the powerlifter-style squats w decent form;
Based on my bio mechanics/some tighter muscles I have an issue w/ normal less-than-shoulder-width deads pulling off the floor. I haven’t maxed on sumo deads yet but so far I don’t have issues getting it off the ground, as much.
Based on all of this I was considering working towards sumo deads instead.
With my squats being so wide is it wise to make my deads sumos? I don’t want to over work my inner thighs (adductors?) and kill my hips…

Any suggestions?

If you’re squatting and pulling without equipment, going wide on squats is eventually going to take a toll on your hips (or at least it has on mine). I got away with it for quite some time, but have recently had to switch to a narrower raw squat stance.

What are you considering wide in regards to your squat stance?

Squat:
burt128 is right about the hip issues. The bad part about a narrow stance is you have to travel further to get to parallel than you would with a wide stance. It’s harder for me to sit back in a narrow stance, but I use it anyway because wide stance kills my hips.

Deadlift:
Even though I squat narrow, I’m much stronger in a sumo stance and it doesn’t both my hips in the least. I start with my hips fairly high though. Again, using a narrow stance you have to move the bar further.

edited

Would about just less work (lower volume, frequency, intensity) of the wide stance work and just make your supplementary work narrow stance.

My initial transition to wide squats/deads sucked, my hips were incredibly weak and it kinda hurt. but that was initially…
When I mean wide my squat form sets my feet touching the power rack, mine is a hammer strength, I’m assuming a standard rack. My deads are about as wide on sumo, they are about 2-4 inches from the plates on each side.

So, I guess a more serious question… If I want to generate more power (not just ego) for something like powerlifting, for example, should I keep the wide stance? And if I don’t want to do something like that, should I drop the super wide stance and narrow it some?

It could be that you are starting with your hips too low, try to raise them a little and see if it helps with getting it off the floor at all. I personally use a sumo stance for deads and slightly wider than shoulder-width squat. It’s really about leverages with the deadlift though, different body types will be more advantageous at certain lifts.

If I squat and deadlift heavy, raw, and wide with any sort of frequency, my hips take a real beating. I need equipment to be able to deal with it. My stance is wider for competition than it would probably be if I were just lifting to look pretty.

[quote]fmaurice wrote:
My initial transition to wide squats/deads sucked, my hips were incredibly weak and it kinda hurt. but that was initially…
When I mean wide my squat form sets my feet touching the power rack, mine is a hammer strength, I’m assuming a standard rack. My deads are about as wide on sumo, they are about 2-4 inches from the plates on each side.

So, I guess a more serious question… If I want to generate more power (not just ego) for something like powerlifting, for example, should I keep the wide stance? And if I don’t want to do something like that, should I drop the super wide stance and narrow it some?[/quote]

Squat and pull with the stance at which you are strongest. Keep in mind that most raw squatters use a narrower stance than you see from the double-ply, monolift crowd. If you can pull sumo and it doesn’t bug your hips, go for it. I’d train both and see which one you’re better at once you get the technique down for each.

[quote]pushmepullme wrote:
If I squat and deadlift heavy, raw, and wide with any sort of frequency, my hips take a real beating. I need equipment to be able to deal with it. My stance is wider for competition than it would probably be if I were just lifting to look pretty.[/quote]

This is exactly what happens to me too. And here I thought I was all alone. :slight_smile:

Unless you have superhuman hips (insert sex joke), you’ll have to alternate wide and narrow stance work in some fashion (for raw lifters). Personally, I’m starting to go for the “normal” stance for squats, with feet a couple inches wider than shoulder width, and super wide sumo stance, aka toes about one inch from touching the plates. Another advantage of doing it that way is it gives you incentive to put a lot of training into your quads, since they’re more involved in narrower stance squatting. Keeps your hips fresh for sumo pulling after squatting is finished at competitions too.

Go heavy squat, light deadlift, and just keep rotating the heavy/light. Take a break when you need one.
Rome wasn’t built in a day.

BB

The raw squatting detail was new to me, makes sense since I don’t -plan- on going that crazy (not a bad thing) w my lifting career…
Also, for more basic equipment like knee wraps and such, is that just personal preference? I don’t want to use them WHEN my knees hurt. Anyone know of general studies on how much weight is a little too much on knees, with all things equal…
I weigh 155ish, hit about 175 by winter and squat 330 and pull 345 now if that helps. I’m guessing hitting 405 if I haven’t gained much mass may be a decent time to grab some aids… maybe.

I squat oly style and pull conventional (405 and 505 respectively). I was fucking around today during my deload week and thought about pulling sumo for a bit. I warmed up real quick and started with two plates… and it was harder, way harder than pulling conventional. I predict I would be lucky to pull 365 sumo. It got me thinking maybe I should consider it for a bit, because from what I understand, it is more ass and hams than conventional and perhaps I have a pretty big muscle imbalance going on. Thoughts?

[quote]elih8er wrote:
I squat oly style and pull conventional (405 and 505 respectively). I was fucking around today during my deload week and thought about pulling sumo for a bit. I warmed up real quick and started with two plates… and it was harder, way harder than pulling conventional. I predict I would be lucky to pull 365 sumo. It got me thinking maybe I should consider it for a bit, because from what I understand, it is more ass and hams than conventional and perhaps I have a pretty big muscle imbalance going on. Thoughts?[/quote]

I would just chalk it up to not being used to the lift. You’ve probably been doing conventional deads for some time now and you’ve built your strength from them. Drastically changing your stance isn’t going to allow you to use your glutes and hams in the same way, and it will expose other muscles such as your adductors.

One of the biggest things that really helps when squatting and pulling wide is to actively spread the floor more, and jam your knees in an imaginary path that leads kinda of diagonally back and out. Doing this makes your glutes feel like they are torqueing more fully and more laterally towards the glute ham tie in.

It seems to take a while to get used to the motion and strong enough in it that your groin muscles are protected. Without this outward spreading motion, the upper adductors and pectineus can easily get jacked up and you lose a lot of force. It takes a while to not only automatically do the motion, but to get strong in it as well.

Switching straight to sumo for me was a bitch, I was a little stronger, but it hurt like hell. What I did was spent a few extra workout doing really light high rep sets of the following:

cossak squats
deficit pulls
wide stance pullthroughs
ab/adductors

No matter how strong you think your hips are, they need to be stronger. You need to integrate the ab/adductors into the hip extension in a functional fashion or else what I think happens is that the adductor magnus fucks up the tracking of your hip joints.

One of the worst mistakes I made was stretching. It sounds weird but I was doing the typical sitting front splits stretch where you lean forward and stretch the groin and hamstrings. This just fucked my up worse. I was constantly opening up new range of motion that I didn’t need, and that my muscles didn’t know how to use under a maximal effort. If you lack the flexibility to keep your knees out, back arched, chest up etc, Work on building it up under some kind of minimal load where the muscles have to be active. Box squats, pullthroughs, etc. It seems for powerlifting anyways, that for me, I work better by not statically stretching if I can help it. Ie; if my low back is pumped and tight after back raises, ill do a few sets of dead bugs or reverse crunches. If my hip flexors are tight, some lunges or pullthroughs seem to do the trick to get my hips out of tilt. It also seems that any ROM gained by static stretching is fleeting and lost after a few hours or a day or two. Foam rolling and work with a baseball etc works wonders though.

Basically to sum it up, Wide stance is much more different that it looks for squat and deadlift. In narrow stance you basically just shove your hips back and then shove them forwards, maybe push your knees out a bit. Wide stance is a more complicated mind-muscle connection and requires a difference groove to maximize drive and prevent injury. You built up your oly stance and conventional deads by starting light and learning the groove, you have to do this all over again at least for 2-3 weeks with wide stance. or you can just slap on some briefs or a suit and just grip and rip, but it catches up to you.

Of course I am only barely an intermediate with my squat/dead in the 500-600 range single ply, but this is what I have come to realize for myself.