[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
Have you ever tried working a weak bodypart 2x/day 2x/week? I was reading up on that recent article and saw that suggested. I’ve tried just about everything else, adjusting frequency and volume but I’ve never even considered doing the same bodypart twice in a day. I’m thinking about giving that a shot here soon.
Came to mind because chest/legs are my lagging areas as well and I’m looking for ways to bring them up to speed.[/quote]
Ive talked to a weightlifting coach about performing the same bodypart 2x a day. He was suggesting to start with heavy/low rep for your first session and end with light/high rep for the second session. I believe he said youd like to put 6-8hrs between sessions. it was an interesting concept, but i never tried it myself. It would be cool if Stu had some experience with it tho.[/quote]
Yah, that’s what I had heard as well. I was thinking about doing my squatting variations, SLDL, etc in the AM then doing like 20 rep sets of leg press, extensions, curls and the like in the PM.
Chest I’m assuming would just be presses AM fly’s PM
[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
Have you ever tried working a weak bodypart 2x/day 2x/week? I was reading up on that recent article and saw that suggested. I’ve tried just about everything else, adjusting frequency and volume but I’ve never even considered doing the same bodypart twice in a day. I’m thinking about giving that a shot here soon.
Came to mind because chest/legs are my lagging areas as well and I’m looking for ways to bring them up to speed.[/quote]
Ive talked to a weightlifting coach about performing the same bodypart 2x a day. He was suggesting to start with heavy/low rep for your first session and end with light/high rep for the second session. I believe he said youd like to put 6-8hrs between sessions. it was an interesting concept, but i never tried it myself. It would be cool if Stu had some experience with it tho.[/quote]
Yah, that’s what I had heard as well. I was thinking about doing my squatting variations, SLDL, etc in the AM then doing like 20 rep sets of leg press, extensions, curls and the like in the PM.
Chest I’m assuming would just be presses AM fly’s PM[/quote]
From what the teacher said, was a weight lifting coach at my college, the point would be to use the same exercises in the AM and the PM.
WHile I’ve been able in the past to adjust weekly frequencies, having a full time job pretty much makes it next to impossible for me to actually get to the gym twice a day, even if I wanted to. I do see some possible benefit to the 2x a day, even with the same body part addressed during both sessions. Waaaaaaay back in the 1950’s, you would sometimes hear of bodybuilders doing “feeder workouts”.
Essentially they would hit a particular bodypart on Monday for example, and then hit it again on Tuesday. Whether they would repeat the exact workout, or we’re simply talking about just a few sets to increase blood flow and nutrient delivery, I’m not exactly sure, but that either approach could provide an added benefit is certainly feasible.
What I employed when I was doing the double legs and double chest sessions each split, was that I would make use of different exercises for each session. A couple of movements I had to repeat simply because of the possible selection available (and which ones I thought were actually productive), but my thinking was that with this approach I would be able to really hit ‘all the angles’ to so speak.
Of course you could conversely argue that by employing the same exercise selection you would hit the same, deeper fibers much a greater frequency, possibly prompting better hypertrophy in the process.
If you guys can fit a 2x/day into your daily schedules, but all means share your results.
Isnt that wat CT has been talking about. Explosive movements, strength etc in AM to activate nervous system and high volume, isolation exercises in PM, to get extra volume, whilst minimizing fatigue. Holidays def have to try it out.
I know a big aspect of the additional daily workouts CT made use of was for the nutrient delivery and recovery aspects. Hence the push for minimizing the eccentric portions of movments, which are known to be the culrpit for excessive muscle damage. Of ourse Christian also had each session last a fairly short duration as opposed to the 60-90 minute workouts most gym rats ashere to. Some olympic lifter influence? -lol.
I’m not certain if achieving a fully activated CNS in the morning would have a carry-over effect hours later though. Makes me wonder how long the window created would be open if you suddenly became inactive after priming your system.
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
I know a big aspect of the additional daily workouts CT made use of was for the nutrient delivery and recovery aspects. Hence the push for minimizing the eccentric portions of movments, which are known to be the culrpit for excessive muscle damage. Of ourse Christian also had each session last a fairly short duration as opposed to the 60-90 minute workouts most gym rats ashere to. Some olympic lifter influence? -lol.
I’m not certain if achieving a fully activated CNS in the morning would have a carry-over effect hours later though. Makes me wonder how long the window created would be open if you suddenly became inactive after priming your system.
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
I know a big aspect of the additional daily workouts CT made use of was for the nutrient delivery and recovery aspects. Hence the push for minimizing the eccentric portions of movments, which are known to be the culrpit for excessive muscle damage. Of ourse Christian also had each session last a fairly short duration as opposed to the 60-90 minute workouts most gym rats ashere to. Some olympic lifter influence? -lol.
I’m not certain if achieving a fully activated CNS in the morning would have a carry-over effect hours later though. Makes me wonder how long the window created would be open if you suddenly became inactive after priming your system.
S[/quote]
Stu, actually decreasing the eccentric as much as possible will help with nutrients uptake. It has been shown that muscle damage caused by eccentric loading decreases the rate of glycogen replenishment.
Eccentric exercise decreases glucose transporter GLUT4 protein in human skeletal muscle.
S Asp, J R Daugaard and E A Richter
Author Affiliations
Copenhagen Muscle Research Centre, August Krogh Institute, University of Copenhagen, Denmark.
Abstract
Eccentric exercise causes impaired postexercise glycogen resynthesis. To study whether changes in muscle concentration of the glucose transporter (GLUT4) protein might be involved, seven healthy young men performed one-legged eccentric exercise by resisting knee flexion enforced by a motor-driven device. 2. The GLUT4 protein concentration in the exercised and in the control thigh was unchanged immediately after exercise. On days 1 and 2 after exercise, the GLUT4 protein concentration in the exercised muscle was 68 +/- 10 and 64 +/- 10% (means +/- S.E.M.; P < 0.05), respectively, of the concentration in the control muscle, and had returned to control values on days 4 and 7. 3. The muscle glycogen concentration decreased from 404 +/- 44 to 336 +/- 44 mmol (kg dry wt)-1 (P < 0.05) during exercise. The glycogen concentration remained significantly lower than in the control thigh on days 1 and 2 after exercise but on days 4 and 7 no differences were found. 4. Although no cause-effect relationship was established, these findings may suggest that decreased muscle concentrations of GLUT4 protein, and, hence, a decreased rate of glucose transport into muscle cells, may be involved in the sustained low glycogen concentration seen after eccentric exercise.
AND …
Eccentric exercise decreases maximal insulin action in humans: muscle and systemic effects.
S Asp, J R Daugaard, S Kristiansen, B Kiens and E A Richter
Author Affiliations
Copenhagen Muscle Research Centre, August Krogh Institute, University of Copenhagen, Denmark. sasp@aki.ku.dk
Abstract
Unaccustomed eccentric exercise decreases whole-body insulin action in humans. To study the effects of one-legged eccentric exercise on insulin action in muscle and systemically, the euglycaemic clamp technique combined with arterial and bilateral femoral venous catheterization was used. Seven subjects participated in two euglycaemic clamps, performed in random order. One clamp was preceded 2 days earlier by one-legged eccentric exercise (post-eccentric exercise clamp (PEC)) and one was without the prior exercise (control clamp (CC)). 2. During PEC the maximal insulin-stimulated glucose uptake over the eccentric thigh was marginally lower when compared with the control thigh, (11.9%, 64.6 +/- 10.3 vs. 73.3 +/- 10.2 mumol kg-1 min-1, P = 0.08), whereas no inter-thigh difference was observed at a submaximal insulin concentration. The glycogen concentration was lower in the eccentric thigh for all three clamp steps used (P < 0.05). The glucose transporter GLUT4 protein content was on average 39% lower (P < 0.05) in the eccentric thigh in the basal state, whereas the maximal activity of glycogen synthase was identical in the two thighs for all clamp steps. 3. The glucose infusion rate (GIR) necessary to maintain euglycaemia during maximal insulin stimulation was lower during PEC compared with CC (15.7%, 81.3 +/- 3.2 vs. 96.4 +/- 8.8 mumol kg-1 min-1, P < 0.05). 4. Our data show that 2 days after unaccustomed eccentric exercise, muscle and whole-body insulin action is impaired at maximal but not submaximal concentrations. The local effect cannot account for the whole-body effect, suggesting the release of a factor which decreases insulin responsiveness systemically
Time course of glycogen accumulation after eccentric exercise
J. J. Widrick, D. L. Costill, G. K. McConell, D. E. Anderson, D. R. Pearson and J. J. Zachwieja
Human Performance Laboratory, Ball State University, Muncie, Indiana 47306.
This study examined the time course of glycogen accumulation in skeletal muscle depleted by concentric work and subsequently subjected to eccentric exercise. Eight men exercised to exhaustion on a cycle ergometer [70% of maximal O2 consumption (VO2max)] and were placed on a carbohydrate-restricted diet. Approximately 12 h later they exercised one leg to subjective failure by repeated eccentric action of the knee extensors against a resistance equal to 120% of their one-repetition maximum concentric knee extension force (ECC leg). The contralateral leg was not exercised and served as a control (CON leg). During the 72-h recovery period, subjects consumed 7 g carbohydrate.kg body wt-1.day-1. Moderate soreness was experienced in the ECC leg 24-72 h after eccentric exercise. Muscle biopsies from the vastus lateralis of the ECC and CON legs revealed similar glycogen levels immediately after eccentric exercise (40.2 +/- 5.2 and 47.6 +/- 6.4 mmol/kg wet wt, respectively; P greater than 0.05). There was no difference in the glycogen content of ECC and CON legs after 6 h of recovery (77.7 +/- 7.9 and 85.1 +/- 4.9 mmol/kg wet wt, respectively; P greater than 0.05), but 18 h later, the ECC leg contained 15% less glycogen than the CON leg (90.2 +/- 8.2 vs. 105.8 +/- 8.9 mmol/kg wet wt; P less than 0.05). After 72 h of recovery, this difference had increased to 24% (115.8 +/- 8.0 vs. 153.0 +/- 12.2 mmol/kg wet wt; P less than 0.05). These data confirm that glycogen accumulation is impaired in eccentrically exercised muscle.
Impaired muscle glycogen resynthesis after eccentric exercise
D. L. Costill, D. D. Pascoe, W. J. Fink, R. A. Robergs, S. I. Barr and D. Pearson
Human Performance Laboratory, Ball State University, Muncie, Indiana 47306.
Eight men performed 10 sets of 10 eccentric contractions of the knee extensor muscles with one leg [eccentrically exercised leg (EL)]. The weight used for this exercise was 120% of the maximal extension strength. After 30 min of rest the subjects performed two-legged cycling [concentrically exercised leg (CL)] at 74% of maximal O2 uptake for 1 h. In the 3 days after this exercise four subjects consumed diets containing 4.25 g CHO/kg body wt, and the remainder were fed 8.5 g CHO/kg. All subjects experienced severe muscle soreness and edema in the quadriceps muscles of the eccentrically exercised leg. Mean (+/- SE) resting serum creatine kinase increased from a preexercise level of 57 +/- 3 to 6,988 +/- 1,913 U/l on the 3rd day of recovery. The glycogen content (mmol/kg dry wt) in the vastus lateralis of CL muscles averaged 90, 395, and 592 mmol/kg dry wt at 0, 24, and 72 h of recovery. The EL muscle, on the other hand, averaged 168, 329, and 435 mmol/kg dry wt at these same intervals. Subjects receiving 8.5 g CHO/kg stored significantly more glycogen than those who were fed 4.3 g CHO/kg. In both groups, however, significantly less glycogen was stored in the EL than in the CL.
K. P. O’Reilly, M. J. Warhol, R. A. Fielding, W. R. Frontera, C. N. Meredith and W. J. Evans
Five healthy untrained young male subjects were studied before, immediately after, and 10 days after a 45-min bout of eccentric exercise on a cycle ergometer (201 W). The subjects were sedentary at all other times and consumed a eucaloric meat-free diet. Needle biopsies of the vastus lateralis muscle were examined for intracellular damage and glycogen content. Immediately after exercise, muscle samples showed myofibrillar tearing and edema. At 10 days, there was myofibrillar necrosis, inflammatory cell infiltration, and no evidence of myofibrillar regeneration. Glycogen utilization during the exercise bout was 33 mmol glycosyl units/kg muscle, consistent with the metabolic intensity of 44% of maximal O2 uptake; however, the significant glycogen use by type II fibers contrasted with concentric exercise performed at this intensity. At 10 days after exercise, muscle glycogen was still depleted, in both type I and II fibers. It is possible that the alterations in muscle ultrastructures were related to the lack of repletion of muscle glycogen. Damage produced by eccentric exercise was more persistent than previously reported, indicating that more than 10 days may be necessary for recovery of muscle ultrastructure and carbohydrate reserves
Very cool stuff Christian. I remember reading an older piece by Lowery (I think) about Carbing up when utilizing Cyclical Ketogenic Diets, and he talked about avoiding excessive muscle trauma from eccentric activities the few days before a refeed. While I understood this in terms of applying it to a contest-peak week approach (rationale as to why so many natty guys I talk to seem to completely abandon squats as their contest nears, and then all leg training a week or two out!), I never even considered it’s applications in a day to day training approach.
As usual, you’re always thinking outside the box coach
Stu, I was wondering what your coffee/caffeine intake is like during prep. Many people talk about keeping blood sugars leveled and spiking it only at certain times of the day I.E training. Yet many of them state that they drink large amounts of coffee and diet soda through out the day, won’t this cause spikes though perhaps small, through out the day?
[quote]EvanX wrote:
Stu, I was wondering what your coffee/caffeine intake is like during prep. Many people talk about keeping blood sugars leveled and spiking it only at certain times of the day I.E training. Yet many of them state that they drink large amounts of coffee and diet soda through out the day, won’t this cause spikes though perhaps small, through out the day?[/quote]
I think that some people just talk themselves into some particularly odd nutritional habits. During every contest prep I’ve done, I’ve enjoyed diet soda, sugarless gum (A whole lot of it!), Splenda in my Oatmeal, and coffee as I desire it (usually on lower carb days, other than that it’s all water and Mag10 for me). You have to realize that anything you eat will cause SOME amount of rise in your insulin levels. Unless you’re eating nothing but a straight spoonful of sugar, most reports of spiked insulin are greatly exaggerated (IMO). I have yet to truly see a contest competitor who failed to get shredded because of diet soda or sugarless gum. They may blame their lack of conditioning on that, but I’d be willing to bet that it’s not the real culprit.
what was aprox your waist size when you were 208 after you last formal mass phase? Just a reference, so many people who are “bulking” (including me) don’t trick themselves into thinking oversized waists are still ok.
I usually buy jeans with a 34" waist (offseason, and inseason), but then have to cinch my belt 3, sometimes (during a prep) 4 notches. I imagine I could get away with 33" without the belt, and that’s when I’m weighing over 2 bills. So while I’m always quick to point out my less than narrow hip bones, my waist never really gets ridiculously out of control. I think there’s a point where you’re just fooling yourself into thinking you’re putting out quality mass. The difference in my contest weights from 2009 to 2010 was 3 lbs on the scale, BUT I think I had better conditioning as well in 2010, so we’re talking 4, MAYBE 5 lbs of muscle in a year’s time. Yates always said that no matter what you do, your body just can’t put on more than 2-3 lbs of muscle per month (and that’s in an ideal environment), no matter how much you eat. Of course some people don’t realize how much 3 lbs of muscle can dramatically affect your physique when you’re at a low bodyfat percentage, so they get into all this insane bulking nonsense. I’m not advocating undereating mind you, I truly believe most people don’t eat enough, but there is a line where you’re just being silly, and not productive.
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
I usually buy jeans with a 34" waist (offseason, and inseason), but then have to cinch my belt 3, sometimes (during a prep) 4 notches. I imagine I could get away with 33" without the belt, and that’s when I’m weighing over 2 bills. So while I’m always quick to point out my less than narrow hip bones, my waist never really gets ridiculously out of control. I think there’s a point where you’re just fooling yourself into thinking you’re putting out quality mass. The difference in my contest weights from 2009 to 2010 was 3 lbs on the scale, BUT I think I had better conditioning as well in 2010, so we’re talking 4, MAYBE 5 lbs of muscle in a year’s time. Yates always said that no matter what you do, your body just can’t put on more than 2-3 lbs of muscle per month (and that’s in an ideal environment), no matter how much you eat. Of course some people don’t realize how much 3 lbs of muscle can dramatically affect your physique when you’re at a low bodyfat percentage, so they get into all this insane bulking nonsense. I’m not advocating undereating mind you, I truly believe most people don’t eat enough, but there is a line where you’re just being silly, and not productive.
S[/quote]
I wish I would have kept this line of thinking. I have been gaining weight after a “manorexic” problem my freshman year of college. I went from 140-200 at 6’1" or a bit taller. It was nice steady gains at first, then I read all these guys saying “EAT, EAT, EAT!” so I started doing the typical see-food diet. It showed too. I still get compliments all the time about how I’ve impressed people though, so I’m not worried TOO much.
I think I’m gonna try to go for 220 pounds (at 5 8") fitting well in those 34" jeans. I gotta add that I have never considered my waist to be small, but the last days of a cut I think 32" jeans are loose, so reinforcing your point, I see no reason of getting more than 34", even being 220 pounds at my height.
A couple of things I figured I’d update people on…
1- Even though I’m able to train fairly normally with my left elbow issues (the pain isn’t what it was), I do detect a slight degree of atrophy in the left triceps when I hit a front double bicep shot (I did all double arm work, so maybe the muscles just weren’t firing as efficiently?) It looks perfectly normally when I have a pump going (after a workout), but normally, it’s definitely noticeable if you’re looking hard (as a judge would be). My solution is to throw in a few sets of triceps work just for the left side on one of my chest days (current split is 2 chest days and 2 leg days every 6 days). Obviously I don’t want to do too much as I’m already doing so much pressing work between the chest sessions and the shoulder day. Hopefully things will sort themselves out.
2- I’ve gotten a few questions from people about what I think about the Mag10 fasting that people are talking about lately. Towards the end of every prep I’ve done, my ‘low’ days have gotten pretty damn low, even to the point where I would see just how little I could eat on occasion and still function in the gym and at work. Obviously I relied on my constant jug of Mag10 to ward off any potential catabolism that might have occurred. In hindsight, I have no doubts that it was an effective method. Would I actually try fasting as is being suggested? If I didn’t have such issues when my stomach was completely empty, sure I’d try it, but even on those low, low days in past preps, I’ve needed something in my stomach to avoid horribly painful cramps. So I guess the answer is Yes, I do believe it’s a worthwhile approach to throw in a ‘control’ day of sorts, and take the whole caloric cycling approach for a spin.
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
A couple of things I figured I’d update people on…
1- Even though I’m able to train fairly normally with my left elbow issues (the pain isn’t what it was), I do detect a slight degree of atrophy in the left triceps when I hit a front double bicep shot (I did all double arm work, so maybe the muscles just weren’t firing as efficiently?) It looks perfectly normally when I have a pump going (after a workout), but normally, it’s definitely noticeable if you’re looking hard (as a judge would be). My solution is to throw in a few sets of triceps work just for the left side on one of my chest days (current split is 2 chest days and 2 leg days every 6 days). Obviously I don’t want to do too much as I’m already doing so much pressing work between the chest sessions and the shoulder day. Hopefully things will sort themselves out.
S[/quote]
Wow stu it is kind of creepy how similar our injuries have been.
I kind of eluded to it earlier in the thread but I pretty much had some bad issues with my left forarm/elbow that seemed like some kind of RSI (muscle pain and greatly weakend grip).
As it progressed I started getting wrist drop on DB pressing movements and the long head of my tri was weaker and “softer” when pumped.
I went to the physio and he though it was a nerve impingment around the brachial plexus due to my trap, neck and shoulder muscles growing and getting really tight from playing my first season in the front row in rugby. luckily my season has finished and things turned around really quickly so I’m pretty much full strength on everything bar overhead db estensions.
Sorry for the massive post in your thread but when you said your triceps is getting smaller I thought you might need to start thinking about if its nerve related as well.
Doyle
